MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #17

[reedus23]

I think this is one of the KEY points of the investigation we need at this point, as it will provide more insight into HOW/WHERE/WHAT the shooting of MB entailed. I only got some simple insight into what this means that those details will agitate the masses more so...either way that will happen, if it supports MB or if it supports OW. I suspect it supports OW however because if it supports MB it would probably expedite the process of reconciliation with the masses.

Question about potential blood. Hypothetical because I have no idea but let's say there is a trail of blood drops 25 feet beyond where MB came to rest. In other words, it would tend to show that MB traveled 25 feet further and then turned around and came back those 25 feet before falling. Would the experts be able to determine from the pattern if he was walking, stumbling, running, etc.?

 

[Trident]

I think it is a matter of perspective. Some may view it as tearing down those things that are still wrong in this country.

Ferguson is showing us quite clearly what is still wrong with this country.

If things were different, a different venue perhaps, we could talk, Truth isn't always politically correct in either direction, in my opinion.

 

[reedus23]

I think Fergusons largest issue is ignorance, Both White/Black/Purple groups seem to have little notion of how things work or the consequences of what they "Demand".

I would absolutely agree that there has to be an educational process for everyone up there.

 

[Truthy]

As for only the Brown side being discussed, I am would bet that Crump along with others would love to hear the officer's side. Understandably though, DW isn't giving his side and law enforcement investigating the case isn't releasing their findings for the most part.

I had read some speculation (on a blog, FWIW) that the reason the incident report was black would likely be that OW had lawyered up, and was advised not to speak about it. And that because of that, he would basically have to testify to the GJ. Interesting!
I have no idea if this is a credible scenario- your post just made me recall reading that a week or so back.
Thoughts anyone?
And that

 

[JLSChook]

The problem with this is, there is nothing aggressive about running away. And if he took shots toward his retreating back with arms up- IMHO, that is a problem. That is LEO acting as judge, jury, and executioner, IMHO.

Nope. Tennessee vs. Garner (again)

 

[Sonya610]

Question about potential blood. Hypothetical because I have no idea but let's say there is a trail of blood drops 25 feet beyond where MB came to rest. In other words, it would tend to show that MB traveled 25 feet further and then turned around and came back those 25 feet before falling. Would the experts be able to determine from the pattern if he was walking, stumbling, running, etc.?

I seriously doubt it. But the shell casings could tell a LOT.

Where did the shell casings start to drop, and where did the body end up.

 

[reedus23]

Ferguson is showing us quite clearly what is still wrong with this country.

If things were different, a different venue perhaps, we could talk, Truth isn't always politically correct in either direction, in my opinion.

Yes, on both sides.

 

[Truthy]

It's posted not far back. It'd probably help if you read back a bit.

Thanks- I keep seeing links that are "sources say" or Josie's phone call, both of which I do not consider actual evidence- yet.
My jury is so out on this whole thing. MOO.

 

[JLSChook]

Yep been linked and posted a bunch.

I think I posted it (as well as others) about 800 times even before you joined here.

I don't get what is so hard to understand about the actual laws?

 

[Sonya610]

Yes, on both sides.

Yes well regarding what is wrong; crime statistics are accurate even though the media and government try to ignore them.

 

[Klood-N]

Link to OW's testimony please?

There are more great posts here, but here's some.

“Police sources tell me more than a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop’s version of events in shooting,” St. Louis Post-Dispatch crime reporter Christine Byers tweeted
http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/witnesses-say-ferguson-teen-attacked-cop-before-shooting/

He has told investigators that he struggled with Brown in his police cruiser and opened fire out of fear for his life after Brown charged at him, according to people familiar with Wilson’s interview with investigators.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...0e203c-2757-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html

Wilson was coming off another case in the neighborhood on Aug. 9 when he ordered Michael Brown and his friend Dorian Johnson to stop walking in the middle of the road because they were obstructing traffic...“They ignored him and the officer started to get out of the car to tell them to move," the source said. "They shoved him right back in, that’s when Michael Brown leans in and starts beating Officer Wilson in the head and the face."
...there was a struggle between Brown and Wilson for the policeman’s firearm, resulting in the gun going off – although it still remains unclear at this stage who pulled the trigger. Brown started to walk away according to the account, prompting Wilson to draw his gun and order him to freeze. Brown, the source said, raised his hands in the air, and turned around saying, "What, you're going to shoot me?"...Brown charged Wilson, prompting the officer to fire at least six shots at him

- a source close to the department's top brass
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/2...en-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

A caller to the St. Louis radio program The Dana Show, on Radio America, gave what she said was the officer's version of events. Her account accurately matches what Wilson has told investigators, a source with detailed knowledge of the investigation told CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-michael-brown-dueling-narratives/


“He pulled up ahead of them. And then he got a call-in that there was a strong-arm robbery. And, they gave a description. And, he’s looking at them and they got something in their hands and it looks like it could be what, you know those cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back to them. Tries to get out of his car. They slam his door shut violently. I think he said Michael did. And, then he opened the car again. He tried to get out. He stands up.

And then Michael just bum-rushes him and shoves him back into his car. Punches him in the face and them Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabbed for the gun. At one point he got the gun entirely turned against his hip. And he shoves it away. And the gun goes off.

Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And, Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, “Freeze!” Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something.”

http://danaloeschradio.com/alleged-friend-of-officer-darren-wilson-offers-his-side/

I've been trying to make sense of the construction guys' descriptions of what they saw. Trying to correlate their reports with those of other witnesses and what we know from other evidence.

Fox2Now interviewed one of them - I'll call him CW1 - he's apparently the one who swore and spoke with MB earlier.

CW1 - Swearing/Religious CW - interviewed by Fox2Now
http://fox2now.com/2014/09/08/two-j...tion-workers-describe-michael-brown-shooting/

Kohler said the worker described a shot fired while Brown was running away.

The worker said Brown was “…kind of walking back toward the cop,” his “hands were still up” and the witness described Officer Wilson “backing up as he fired.”

The eyewitness who spoke to Fox 2 described hearing two pops, then looked up to see Brown.

“I saw him staggering and running and when he finally caught himself he threw his hands up and started screaming OK OK OK OK OK and then the three officers come through the thing and the one just started shooting,” the worker told Fox 2

The Fox 2 witness immediately wrote down what he saw. He also drew a diagram showing him and his co-worker about 50 yards away. He wrote that the officer “emptied his gun into the guy.”​

And CS2 was interviewed by the St. L. Post-Dispatch

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_14a3e5f8-6c6a-5deb-92fe-87fcee622c29.html

He said Brown struck up a rambling, half-hour conversation with his co-worker.

About a half-hour later, the worker heard a gunshot. Then he saw Brown running away from a police car. Wilson trailed about 10 to 15 feet behind, gun in hand. About 90 feet away from the car, the worker said, Wilson fired another shot at Brown, whose back was turned.

The worker said Brown stumbled and then stopped, put his hands up, turned around and said, “OK, OK, OK, OK, OK.” He said he told investigators from the St. Louis County police and the FBI that because of the stumble, it seemed to him that Brown had been wounded.

Wilson, gun drawn, also stopped about 10 feet in front of Brown, the worker said.

Then Brown moved, the worker said. “He’s kind of walking back toward the cop.” He said Brown’s hands were still up.

Wilson began backing up as he fired, the worker said.

After the third shot, Brown’s hands started going down, and he moved about 25 feet toward Wilson, who kept backing away and firing. The worker said he could not tell from where he watched — about 50 feet away — if Brown’s motion toward Wilson after the shots was “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”​

CNN, in their inimitable fashion, quote both the CWs but don't clearly distinguish which one is which:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html

The man told CNN he heard one gunshot, then another shot about 30 seconds later.

"The cop didn't say get on the ground. He just kept shooting," the man said.

That same witness described the gruesome scene, saying he saw Brown's "brains come out of his head," again stating, "his hands were up."

The video shows the man raising his arms in the air -- just as, he says, Brown was doing when he was shot.

The other contractor told CNN he saw Brown running away from a police car.

Brown "put his hands up," the construction worker said, and "the officer was chasing him."

The contractor says he saw Wilson fire a shot at Brown while his back was turned.

The men said they didn't seen how the confrontation started.​

How far away were they? According to Fox2Now, CW1 "immediately wrote down what he saw. He also drew a diagram showing him and his co-worker about 50 yards away." But it's being widely reported that they were 50 feet away.

The difference between 50 feet and 50 yards is... well... 100 feet. That's a pretty big difference insofar as what they'd have been able to see and hear.

What exactly did they see?

On MB running away:

CW1 says “I saw him staggering and running"
CW2 says he saw Brown running away from a police car.
One of the CWs told CNN, Brown "put his hands up," the construction worker said, and "the officer was chasing him."

I'm trying to picture putting up my hands while being chased. I just can't visualize it.

On MB turning and moving back toward OW:

CW1 says Brown was “…kind of walking back toward the cop,” his “hands were still up” and the witness described Officer Wilson “backing up as he fired.”

CW2 says, Then Brown moved, the worker said. “He’s kind of walking back toward the cop.” He said Brown’s hands were still up. Wilson began backing up as he fired. After the third shot, Brown’s hands started going down, and he moved about 25 feet toward Wilson, who kept backing away and firing. The worker said he could not tell from where he watched — about 50 feet away — if Brown’s motion toward Wilson after the shots was “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”

My thoughts:

Whichever one claims to have seen "his brains come out of his head" is already suspect purely because of that. As far as I know, no brains came out of MB's head, and it's highly highly doubtful the CW could have seen that happen from where they were, if it did happen. But I'm not sure which one claims to have seen the brains.

CS1's statement that says he threw his hands up and started screaming OK OK OK OK OK and then the three officers come through the thing and the one just started shooting. That's also suspect. In his version, 3 officers were present before the final barrage of gunfire. We're pretty sure that's not the case.

Per CNN, one CW (I don't know which one) said that after the third shot Brown's hands started coming down. If that audio of the gunfire is authentic, I don't know how he could be that specific about the "third shot." I sure couldn't.

The CW seen on video holding his arms "up" -- I agree with the people describing that as more holding his arms "out." The CW's arm positions were not that of surrender, IMO. If that's an accurate representation of how MB was holding his arms, it's not indicative of surrendering.

Brady had said earlier that MB had his arms sort of hugging his abdomen, never saw MB's arms up and that if MB ever had his arms up that Brady missed seeing that part. CW guy says arms up/out. The overheard-guy on the Black Canseco recording made no mention of arms up or out. DJ, PC & TM all said "arms up."

Both CWs say that MB was moving back toward OW. One says "walking back toward the cop," the other CW says he moved about 25 feet toward OW and that it was either “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.”

Even PC, in one of her interviews, admits that MB was moving back toward OW -- although in her version, it was only about a centimeter.

Both CWs say there was a shot fired while MB was fleeing. So do PC & TM, and DJ. I don't recall what Brady said, if anything, about that. The Black Canseco overheard-guy made no mention of any gunfire while MB was fleeing. Based on the audio of the gunfire, I can't figure out when this could have occurred. The shots were all in very quick succession, with only that one very brief pause after 6 rounds.


Obviously, these witness accounts can't all be right. DJ, PC & TM are so dubious that I have to disregard their statements altogether. That leaves Black Canseco overheard-guy, CWs 1 & 2, and Brady. Plus Josie's second-hand account -- which I tend to give credibility to because it revealed details that were later confirmed by physical evidence and additional witnesses.

What I'm left with is, after the assault at the car, and the gunshot there, it's certain that MB fled. OW may or may not have fired at least once while MB was fleeing. It's remotely possible (IMO) that a shot from behind may have grazed the inside of MB's arm, but I don't think so. At some point, MB realized he was being chased (and possibly shot at), and that he wasn't going to get away. MB turned around and began advancing toward OW. When MB turned around, he may have had his arms up or out, or down around his abdomen, or somewhere else altogether. As MB advanced toward OW, OW probably backed up, and he continued to fire until MB fell dead -- probably within just a few feet of OW.

That's enough for me. OW was legitimately in fear for his life at the time he fired the fatal shots. They can stop rioting and threatening now, and go on home.

Respectfully snipped for space and focus, and BBM.

Thank you, sonjay, for this carefully researched post!

I agree that MB advancing back toward OW, after a period of flight, AFTER the assault and struggle over OW's gun in his patrol vehicle, is really a key moment in the whole scenario. That we now have several indications that OW was actually backing up is also, IMO, a very critical piece of information with which to evaluate the justification for shooting.

OW had already been physically assaulted by MB, and engaged in a "close combat" struggle over OW's weapon, and the weapon was actually discharged. We know that from the Chief's initial statement. So, in my mind, OW, as a sworn peace officer on duty, had no duty to allow MB to assault him AGAIN, or try to take his weapon AGAIN. He absolutely had a duty no NOT allow MB to get close enough to him AGAIN to try to take his weapon from him. This isn't ONLY about self defense for the officer, or the officer fearing for his life. The officer KNEW that this suspect had been willing to impulsively assault him, simply because the officer talked to him and asked him to get out of the road. He hadn't even written MB a ticket or anything, at that point-- and presumably had not yet even made the connection to MB as the robbery & assault suspect.

For me, what it boils down to is that the officer, in addition to fearing for his life and safety (he had just been assaulted and this suspect had tried to take his gun), OW had a very specific duty to prevent MB from a second attempt at taking his weapon away from him. This was a dangerously impulsive, and violent suspect, at that critical point in time. OW, IMO, did exactly the right thing. He prevented an advancing suspect from a second attempt to assault, or possibly kill him, and a second attempt to take his gun away from him, which would have made this suspect even MORE dangerous to anyone in the immediate area. It simply doesn't matter at all where his hands were, at the point he was advancing again at OW.

For clarity on this point, lets revisit a police shooting video linked on these threads previously. Remember the video linked by Linda7NJ, with a suspect bending toward an officer as if to surrender his semi automatic rifle and lay it on the sidewalk, while simultaneously reaching into his back waistband and pulling out a handgun? He was instantly shot dead by the officer, and as the suspect lay dead on the sidewalk, the handgun is clearly visible, still gripped in his right hand. THIS is the unpredictable danger that officers face every day. Until a violent suspect is handcuffed and in custody, they are not to be trusted, nor are they presumed to be unarmed. The fact that MB was eventually determined to be unarmed is not even relevant to whether the shooting by OW was justified!

ETA: here is the video again. And a warning that it's graphic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSQRMGmDzkM

It just drives me bananas that only one side of this story, the Brown family inflammatory adjective- laced version, is being told in the media, story after story, as if it is true. Had MB been accurately described as the impulsive and violent suspect he was, tensions may have been reduced much sooner. There has been almost zero attempts at balance in reporting, which, IMO, is deeply unethical, and even immoral, since I believe the media reporting has increased the damage and violence by validating and inflaming the rioters. I wish the media could be held accountable for their unethical reporting.

I hope the time is soon for the real truth to be told about the assault inside OW's vehicle, and what the duty of a sworn officer is in that situation. The public needs to hear that this was not just about self defense! OW was not a civilian!

I'm looking forward to the press conference that I hope the police chief, investigators, and district attorney team will give as soon as the GJ hands down a "no true bill". And yes, there will be riots again, but hopefully sensible people will get out of town, and this time the police will take control of the situation before half the town is burned or looted again. IMO.

 

[popsicle]

This is illogical. It makes no sense to say if he shot towards his back that makes him an executioner. He was not killed by a shot to the back.

The problem with this is, there is nothing aggressive about running away. And if he took shots toward his retreating back with arms up- IMHO, that is a problem. That is LEO acting as judge, jury, and executioner, IMHO.

Not just that... but it would mean he was running with his hands up and the anterior part of his arms/hands were facing towards ODW. Try that one. :floorlaugh:

http://media.lanecc.edu/users/howardc/PTA101/101BodyMechanics/101AnatomicalPosition.jpg

 

[Truthy]

And they faked video of the strong armed robbery as well?

Wow. I didn't know most local police forces had the budget to hire that kind of talent.

I'm not sure how you got that, when we were discussing people linking videos to influence public opinion- just pointing out BOTH sides are doing it.
Does anyone think either video is faked? Hadn't seen that here, but I have not caught up.
MOO.

 

[reedus23]

I had read some speculation (on a blog, FWIW) that the reason the incident report was black would likely be that OW had lawyered up, and was advised not to speak about it. And that because of that, he would basically have to testify to the GJ. Interesting!
I have no idea if this is a credible scenario- your post just made me recall reading that a week or so back.
Thoughts anyone?
And that

I don't know when he lawyered up for certain. If I had to guess, DW had legal representation of some form before he got back to the station. I don't know that that means he was advised not to speak about it because I'm sure there are policies in place that require him to do his report, but that report would have likely been reviewed by a team of lawyers. That is speculation and opinion on my part.

 

[MyBelle]

Same purpose as the PD's leaking the robbery video, and vague reports of OW's injuries. The well was already poisoned long ago, thanks to the FPD and other witnesses.
I don't think I would call this commentary, because I am sure there will be sworn testimony to go with it. That is good enough for me.

MOO.

I don't find any value in making baseless accusations against the police department. The PD didn't leak anything. The robbery video was released intentionally, not leaked. It is evidence of a crime. The PD didn't leak OW's injury, the Chief publicly mentioned it in a press briefing.

JMO

 

[popsicle]

Same purpose as the PD's leaking the robbery video, and vague reports of OW's injuries. The well was already poisoned long ago, thanks to the FPD and other witnesses.
I don't think I would call this commentary, because I am sure there will be sworn testimony to go with it. That is good enough for me.

MOO.

Leaking it? They released it.

 

[TheDuchess]

One point that I think many miss, particularly after seeing the video and the interview from the construction workers.

OW only needs to demonstrate that HE felt that OW was a danger to OW or to others. If OW reasonably demonstrates that he felt in danger, based upon what information he had AT THAT TIME.

Here is what OW knew, or likely knew when he shot MB:

1.) MB was walking down the center of the street and refused to move
2.) MB was accompanied by a friend, who also refused to move
3.) MB fit the description of a suspected armed robber and was in possession of what appeared to possibly the stolen goods
4.) MB assaulted OW and tried reaching for his gun, which went off
5.) OW sustained some sort of injury to his eye and was possibly disoriented
6.) MB fled on foot and refused to stop
7.) MB was not behaving rationally
8.) MB weighed approximately 300 lbs and was about 6 ft 4 in tall
9.) MB had demonstrated that he was willing and capable of overpowering OW
10.) MB turned around and advanced toward OW (many witnesses agree to this)

What OW didn't know:

1.) Was MB armed
2.) Was DJ armed
3.) MB's age
4.) What the video of the armed robbery showed
5.) Where MB lived
6.) What MBs criminal record may or may not have been
7.) Whether MB was under the influence of drugs or alcohol
8.) Likely the location of MBs companion, DJ

Things that bear no influence on whether or not OW felt he was in danger
1.) MBs age
2.) Corruption of city council, LPD, population demographics, unrelated to OW
3.) MBs race unless prior evidence of racism can be proven against OW (which a good guess is that it doesn't exist or we would have heard by now)
4.) How long or why MBs body laid in the street
5.) Whether or not MB was running away if it can be proven that OW felt he was a "fleeing felon"
6.) Whether or not MB had his hands in the air You can still be a threat with your hands in the air
7.) Whether or not MB say "OK OK OK" You can still be a threat with your hands in the air
8.) WHETHER OR NOT THE CONSTRUCTION WORKERS, DJ, PIAGET, TIFFANY, OR ANY OTHER PERSON OTHER THAN OW FEELS THAT MB WAS A DANGER

 

[Klood-N]

Thanks- I keep seeing links that are "sources say" or Josie's phone call, both of which I do not consider actual evidence- yet.
My jury is so out on this whole thing. MOO.

Respectfully, if that's the case, calling Wilson an executioner does not convey that.

 

[Clar]

Question about potential blood. Hypothetical because I have no idea but let's say there is a trail of blood drops 25 feet beyond where MB came to rest. In other words, it would tend to show that MB traveled 25 feet further and then turned around and came back those 25 feet before falling. Would the experts be able to determine from the pattern if he was walking, stumbling, running, etc.?

Well in the case of small arms GSW blood tends to spatter in a cone. So you can narrow down the speed of the target that was hit based on this. A faster moving target will have a longer cone, a slower moving one has a wider cone with a thicker trail. A good (cheap) way to test this is to put down a big white sheet, hang a water balloon filled too capacity so that it has a lot of pressure...shoot it with a BB gun.......look at the spray on the sheet.

Then do it again, except this time do it with a Water balloon swinging from a string tied to the ceiling/overhang. Look at the way the water spray out when the balloon is popped, that gives a very basic idea of the concept although people tend to be under a lot higher pressure then water balloons. If you've ever had the oppertunity to work with a medi-man in a sim lab where they bleed out its pretty....icky.

To get back on to your point, the police would be able to likely determine that if he was shot twice, the difference between the targets state on each occasion shot, within a bubble of reason, someone running tends to make a very different splatter then someone who is standing still. They would have some issue based on blood spatter to differentiate standing vs walking slowly in many cases however.

 

[katydid23]

Well, hopefully OW's testimony matches the majority of witnesses, so we can trust it. Because if his credibility becomes a problem, then we will not know what to believe about the initial encounter. MOO.

The majority of the witnesses, that we have seen so far, did not see the initial encounter. They began watching after hearing the shots.

Ow does not have to match those witnesses, he has to match the forensics. And from what we know, his story does match the forensics. Otherwise he would be in jail already. jmo