MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #20

[seedz]

I know we've been over this ad nauseum over the past 20 threads BUT........

How does someone know if someone else is 'obviously scared'? MB, after stealing blunts and pushing a store clerk around didn't seem 'obviously scared' when a police SUV approached him head on minutes later to get out of the street.

Is anyone absolutely sure MB was moving toward OW clutching his stomach because a couple witnesses said so out of 12 or more? (not even sure how many witnesses there are anymore, because my head hurts)

Scuffle LOL this messes me up. From the chief of police saying an eye injury, enough to take OW to the ER, was more than a scuffle. Even Brown's atty said serious altercation.

NO officer purposely shoots off his weapon inside his police SUV/car, unless of course, the felon has momentary control of the officer's weapon.

I'm not sure how some can feel that punching an officer (hey, I'll even go with an elbow in the eye at this point) AND fighting over his weapon inside a police vehicle, can think it's ok and that no way a cop should shoot a felon because of it. Yes, it's a felony to fight with an officer and grab his weapon. It's the LAW. Brown's atty even states that's what happened.

I would love a link to "MBrown had no bruising on his knuckles". I believe Baden said on a tv interview, "at this point, we cannot tell if there was bruising or not on Brown's hands". <-link in media thread.

There are also Missouri State Laws listed in the media thread.
*thank you imamaze!

Atty? What does that mean?

Dorian Johnson, 22, told CNN that he and Brown were walking in the middle of the street when a white male officer pulled up and told them, "Get the f*** on the sidewalk." The young men replied that they were "not but a minute away from our destination, and we would shortly be out of the street," Johnson said.

The officer drove forward but stopped and backed up, almost hitting the pair, Johnson said.

"We were so close, almost inches away, that when he tried to open his door aggressively, the door ricocheted both off me and Big Mike's body and closed back on the officer," Johnson said.

Still in his car, the officer then grabbed Brown by his neck, Johnson said. Brown tried to pull away, but the officer kept pulling Brown toward him, he said.

The officer drew his weapon, and "he said, 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'm going to shoot' "

When brown was trying to escape from Wilson's grasp he very well could have incidently hit Wilson with an elbow, who knows

All i know is that star witness Tiffany Mitchell who had the best vantage point with the exception of dorian corroborated with johnsons story. In her words it looked as Wilson was trying to pull Brown through the window

^ That it is the scuffle i am referring to

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/indepe...n-michael-browns-shooting-1408381747?mobile=y
^
According to this article their was no signs of struggle. Looking for signs of struggle, pathologists pay special attention to the hands, forearms, feet and shins, looking for signs of abrasions, cuts and bruises.

A bruise on the knuckles might indicate the deceased threw a punch, but a bruise would only show up if the punch was pretty hard. If Brown sent Wilson to the ER there would be some type of bruising or abrasions on his hands

Brown running in the opposite direction of Wilson sounds like someone fearful of being either killed or arrested. And whether you believe he was scared why would Brown suddenly just stop running, turn to face wilson, lower his head, and bull rush an officer who had his gun drawn

As for the rest of your post, officers break protocol all the time...

 

[al66pine]

That's my opinion, formed after reading every scrap, every photo, every single link posted here and my own research. I'm married to it. Unless, some Earth shattering tangible evidence comes to light.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for ack'mt ^ that^ is your opinion, and
that is subject to change, IF some Earth shattering tangible evidence comes to light.

For the last several weeks of this case, as well as other cases, you - and others - have presented a lot of MSM material & info
(hopefully facts). From this you and other have made cogent arguments supporting your theory about shooting as justified.

For ~first 2 wks, I was on the fence, at least' til
1.Swisher vid,
2. faux-tholgist Parcell's coulda, possible, mighta pronouncements,
3. I reviewed DJ's stmts in a couple diff interviews, inc. one w his atty Freeman Bosley by CNN's Wolf
4. Crump & Co's ack'mt re major/serious altercation w MB & LE for gun in car & his comment that MB did some typical kid/teen stuff.
^ main factors^ re my opinion ATM,

Some here on W/S talk about ODW's spotless record, examplary service, medal of commendation, etc. What if was not?

If solid info surfaced that ODW had propensity to useexcessive force,
say, citizen complaints in his former PD and FPD, and documented & reported to Chief(s) at the time (not coming up after MB death),
Sometimes tasing, sometimes baton, and one shooting.
internal affairs had investigated, found cause for 3 reprimands, for 3 suspensions, ea. of 1 wk unpaid leave.
Most recent was 6 mo ago.
IOW, a pattern of use of excessive force in LE duties. Against whites & blacks equally, if that matters.
All ^this^ is just hypothetical only, for this discussion.

Something like ^that^ w/make me rethink and probably (undoubtedly?) push me to conclude shooting was unjustified.

For those believing shooting was justified, what would it take to make you rethink? To switch to unjustified?
Linda7NJ, can you start? Would ^that^ do it for you? Is that Earth shattering?
Anyone else, what would it take to make you do a 180, to conclude justified?

 

[Klood-N]

Seedz, in response to several of your bolded contentions, my responses in blue.


"Not to mention according to the ferguson pd wilson had no knowledge of the robbery"

That's not what was said. Chief Jackson said FPD's portion of the investigation only went up to the initial contact with Michael, and that the initial contact was due to Michael & DJ blocking traffic. See video here: http://fox2now.com/2014/08/15/live-...ief-tom-jackson-speaks-at-a-press-conference/


"shots to browns arms and hand either occured when he was running away from wilson at one point or when he had his hands up"

Michael's hand injury likely occurred in the car.

PARKS: Nancy, from the evidence that we have so far, there was something that happened between Michael and the officer while the officer was in the car, without question. I think that the evidence in this case, though, will have to look at what the injuries to the officer and the injuries to Michael that may be attributed to whatever happened as Michael stood outside of the car.

"that cut mark plus the other injuries to Michael`s hand plus whatever injuries to the officer, then you can start explaining what may have happened in the car."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/18/ng.01.html

D. PARKS: Let me explain to you a few things. Number one, you`re going to notice that there`s an injury to his hand. That particular injury probably came at a close range, you`re going to find out later. Second, when we talk about front to back -- front to back mainly...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! Let me...

D. PARKS: ... applies to two things...

GRACE: ... let me hear what you`re saying. You`re saying that the gunshot wound to his right hand is at close range, although the autopsy is saying no shots at close range.

D. PARKS: Well, let me explain it like this. It`s a big gash.

GRACE: What?

D. PARKS: It`s a big gash, so as you hear more about it, it`s a big gash on his hand.

GRACE: So it`s not -- are you telling me it`s not a gunshot?

D. PARKS: Now, how that`s -- no, it is a gunshot wound caused by the gun, but a bullet, but it`s a rather large gash in his hand.

GRACE: Well, why do you say it`s at close range?

D. PARKS: Secondly -- well, it`s pretty big and it`s pretty open.

GRACE: That doesn`t mean close range.

D. PARKS: Now, how and when it happened, I`ll leave that to the experts.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/18/ng.01.html


The autopsy by St. Louis County chief medical examiner Mary Case, released to state prosecutors late Friday, found that Brown, 18, had six gunshot wounds to the head and chest and was shot from the front
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...016ef8-26f4-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

"None of the witnesses actually have said brown was shot in the back"
"It struck my friend in the back."
Video here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...uson-missouri-teen-shooting-witness/13992387/

"wilson had to have been made to feel threatened."

No, he had to believe Michael was a threat to himself or others. There's a difference. Multiple laws and info regarding what constitutes a justifiable and/or excusable homicide have been posted here. Supreme Court ruling:

This case requires us to determine the constitutionality of the use of deadly force to prevent the escape of an apparently unarmed suspected felon. We conclude that such force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=471&invol=1

"Wilson played judge, jury and executioner that day"
This phrase gets old. The shooting occurred as Officer Wilson attempted to apprehend a violent suspect who had already assaulted him. Apprehending suspects is his job. Michael was a suspect in an armed robbery and even the family's attorney admits both Darren and Michael were in an altercation at the car with injuries. Michael also struggled for the gun.

The source claims that there is "solid proof" that there was a struggle between Brown and Wilson for the policeman&#8217;s firearm, resulting in the gun going off
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/2...en-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

Finally, police officers may use deadly force to stop or apprehend a fleeing felon, but only if the suspect is armed or has committed a crime that involved the infliction or threatened infliction of serious injury or death.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide


"suggest he purposedly punched wilson"
I can't decipher what this means. Michael accidentally punched Officer Wilson?

 

[katydid23]

Atty? What does that mean?

Dorian Johnson, 22, told CNN that he and Brown were walking in the middle of the street when a white male officer pulled up and told them, "Get the f*** on the sidewalk." The young men replied that they were "not but a minute away from our destination, and we would shortly be out of the street," Johnson said.

The officer drove forward but stopped and backed up, almost hitting the pair, Johnson said.

"We were so close, almost inches away, that when he tried to open his door aggressively, the door ricocheted both off me and Big Mike's body and closed back on the officer," Johnson said.

Still in his car, the officer then grabbed Brown by his neck, Johnson said. Brown tried to pull away, but the officer kept pulling Brown toward him, he said.

The officer drew his weapon, and "he said, 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'm going to shoot' "

When brown was trying to escape from Wilson's grasp he very well could have incidently hit Wilson with an elbow, who knows

All i know is that star witness Tiffany Mitchell who had the best vantage point with the exception of dorian corroborated with johnsons story. In her words it looked as Wilson was trying to pull Brown through the window

^ That it is the scuffle i am referring to

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/indepe...n-michael-browns-shooting-1408381747?mobile=y
^
According to this article their was no signs of struggle. Looking for signs of struggle, pathologists pay special attention to the hands, forearms, feet and shins, looking for signs of abrasions, cuts and bruises.

A bruise on the knuckles might indicate the deceased threw a punch, but a bruise would only show up if the punch was pretty hard. If Brown sent Wilson to the ER there would be some type of bruising or abrasions on his hands

Brown running in the opposite direction of Wilson sounds like someone fearful of being either killed or arrested. And whether you believe he was scared why would Brown suddenly just stop running, turn to face wilson, lower his head, and bull rush an officer who had his gun drawn

As for the rest of your post, officers break protocol all the time...

The scuffle that you are referring to is the version told by Dorian Johnson, who lied repeatedly. I highly doubt that is the version he ended up telling the Grand Jury. It is riddled with mistruths.

I can see why you believe the officer is unjustified, if you believe Dorians version of the event. However I believe the forensics and other witnesses will prove that is a bunch of baloney.

As to why MB did what he did. Why did he do any of what he did. I will wait for the full tox screening, but I think that might explain some of it. But he acted irrationally, aggressively and feloniously, for the 20 minutes prior to meeting up with Wilson. So why would he suddenly act logically then?

 

[Linda7NJ]

That should get them a few more :giggle:

https://twitter.com/mollyrosestl/status/513127820424253440

Now I'm rolling!
Didn't someone say "thousands" of leaders from across the country were coming for Rams game?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Montjoy]

This kind of thinking continues to bother me. Legally, OW starts out vindicated, just like everyone else. There is no burden on OW or his legal team to vindicate him. Right now, he is no more guilty of anything than you or I.

Respectfully, and at the risk of splitting hairs, he does not start out 'vindicated' -- he starts out, like everyone else (including MB), as innocent until proven guilty. To be 'vindicated' he must first be accused and then cleared/acquitted. So, it is totally fair to say that he has not yet been vindicated as he has not been formally charged or accused.

 

[reedus23]

Who is THEY? Who let the issues bleed together? I know the protestors conflated the issues. But who 'let' them?

Mea culpa. Some of those who will complain about OW not being convicted.

 

[katydid23]

Now I'm rolling!
Didn't someone say "thousands" of leaders from across the country were coming for Rams game?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not for this Rams game. I think they expect 'thousands' of global leaders during their big Ferguson weekend, october 13th. And I think, not sure, that is when the Rams are on Monday nighr football?



ETA:
The Organization for Black Struggle is calling for activists to converge on Ferguson, Missouri from October 10 to the 13 for large demonstrations and civil disobedience. The actions are an effort to call attention to police brutality, militarized police, structural violence and systemic racism. Beginning on October 9 thousands of leaders from around the country will arrive in Ferguson for training session. Saturday October 11 there will be a large mobilization march leading to &#8220;civil disobedience and major demonstrations at significant targets&#8221; on Monday October 13th.

http://obs-onthemove.org/featured/a-national-call-to-action-mass-mobe-in-ferguson/

 

[popsicle]

FOX2now &#8207;@FOX2now 1m
Supporters and critics of Ferguson Officer Darren Wilson call for justice #STL http://ift.tt/1sGf9l7

 

[seedz]

Bolded By Me...

What do you mean by a scuffle? If the officer didn't know about the robbery, why would there be a 'scuffle' ? How did it start? Why would a gun go off?

According to the cheif of the ferguson pd, ow had no knowledge of the robbery at the time of the shooting...that is part of the reason why there was a big outrage when the video of brown in the convient store was released

The incident started when ow stopped mb and friend and told them to get out the street. Words were exchanged and that is when johnson said wilson grabbed brown

 

[sonjay]

Respectfully, and at the risk of splitting hairs, he does not start out 'vindicated' -- he starts out, like everyone else (including MB), as innocent until proven guilty. To be 'vindicated' he must first be accused and then cleared/acquitted. So, it is totally fair to say that he has not yet been vindicated as he has not been formally charged or accused.

Respectfully, yeah, you're splitting hairs. The point is, legally, right now, at this moment, OW is as innocent as you or I. He does not need to be vindicated, and the burden of proof is not on him.

Anyone who wants to argue that OW is guilty of murder, or excessive force, or whatever one might think he's guilty of, needs to do more than nitpick at the evidence and witness accounts that support his side. They need to cite evidence that he is guilty.

 

[Klood-N]

According to the cheif of the ferguson pd, ow had no knowledge of the robbery at the time of the shooting...that is part of the reason why there was a big outrage when the video of brown in the convient store was released

The incident started when ow stopped mb and friend and told them to get out the street. Words were exchanged and that is when johnson said wilson grabbed brown

Re: BBM, that's not accurate. He said at the initial contact. More in my longer response to you.

 

[BirdycatNY]

According to the cheif of the ferguson pd, ow had no knowledge of the robbery at the time of the shooting...that is part of the reason why there was a big outrage when the video of brown in the convient store was released
\

The robbery video is relevant to show MB's state of mind and behavior shortly before MB/OW incident imo. Admissible relevant evidence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ld-be-admissible-at-a-federal-criminal-trial/

 

[Linda7NJ]

Thank you for ack'mt ^ that^ is your opinion, and
that is subject to change, IF some Earth shattering tangible evidence comes to light.

For the last several weeks of this case, as well as other cases, you - and others - have presented a lot of MSM material & info
(hopefully facts). From this you and other have made cogent arguments supporting your theory about shooting as justified.

For ~first 2 wks, I was on the fence, at least' til
1.Swisher vid,
2. faux-tholgist Parcell's coulda, possible, mighta pronouncements,
3. I reviewed DJ's stmts in a couple diff interviews, inc. one w his atty Freeman Bosley by CNN's Wolf
4. Crump & Co's ack'mt re major/serious altercation w MB & LE for gun in car & his comment that MB did some typical kid/teen stuff.
^ main factors^ re my opinion ATM,

Some here on W/S talk about ODW's spotless record, examplary service, medal of commendation, etc. What if was not?

If solid info surfaced that ODW had propensity to useexcessive force,
say, citizen complaints in his former PD and FPD, and documented & reported to Chief(s) at the time (not coming up after MB death),
Sometimes tasing, sometimes baton, and one shooting.
internal affairs had investigated, found cause for 3 reprimands, for 3 suspensions, ea. of 1 wk unpaid leave.
Most recent was 6 mo ago.
IOW, a pattern of use of excessive force in LE duties. Against whites & blacks equally, if that matters.
All ^this^ is just hypothetical only, for this discussion.

Something like ^that^ w/make me rethink and probably (undoubtedly?) push me to conclude shooting was unjustified.

For those believing shooting was justified, what would it take to make you rethink? To switch to unjustified?
Linda7NJ, can you start? Would ^that^ do it for you? Is that Earth shattering?
Anyone else, what would it take to make you do a 180, to conclude justified?

I came to this thread because I believed the original first account by the media. That an unarmed black kid was shot dead, shot in the back? by a racist cop.

I've done a complete 180.

I firmly support Officer Wilson.

Earth Shattering for me...a video of the actual entire shooting.

I suspect the complete toxicology report is back...as well as the rest of forensics and ballistics.
Brown family is quiet, their lawyers went quiet, no national leaders talking, Dorien Johnson is in federal protective custody, Wilson testified...all if that bodes well for Wilson

All IMO





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[seedz]

Re: BBM, that's not accurate. He said at the initial contact. More in my longer response to you.

Link?

And what does that mean exaclty

Did he suspect mb once they came face to face

Be nice if there was a detailed police report of the incident...smh

 

[reedus23]

Hard to believe that after running an obviously scared brown decided to bull rush an officer who had his gun drawn

Plus none of the witnesses say nor suggest that mike brown ran towards wilson once they met face to face after the on foot chase though

Some do say brown stumbled forward during which i m sure is when brown was shot in the eye than the top of the head

And it does a make a difference the matter in which brown move towards wilson.... wilson had to have been made to feel threatened. An injured man stumbling forward clutching his stomach doesnt sound like much a threat

The multiple eye witness accounts suggest to me the shots to browns arms and hand either occured when he was running away from wilson at one point or when he had his hands up

What i believe happened is there was a scuffle at the suv, wilson fired his gun, mike ran... wilson got out his suv running after him all the while shooting, mike scared or either braised by a bullet stopped to face wilson with his hands up...for whatever reason wilson kept firing as mike stumbled forward

You should also consider mike had no bruising on his knuckles fingers that would suggest he purposedly punched wilson in the face

Great post and that's what the evidence we know of so far seems to suggest. I will wait for all of the evidence, but can't argue with any of that based on what is actually known so far. I would only also add that not only was there no bruising on MB's knuckles, but in the video at the scene, I couldn't see any visible signs of injury to OW and neither him nor the other officer seemed to pay his eye any attention, though that video was shot from quite a distance.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Seedz, in response to several of your bolded contentions, my responses in blue.


"Not to mention according to the ferguson pd wilson had no knowledge of the robbery"

That's not what was said. Chief Jackson said FPD's portion of the investigation only went up to the initial contact with Michael, and that the initial contact was due to Michael & DJ blocking traffic. See video here: http://fox2now.com/2014/08/15/live-...ief-tom-jackson-speaks-at-a-press-conference/


"shots to browns arms and hand either occured when he was running away from wilson at one point or when he had his hands up"

Michael's hand injury likely occurred in the car.

PARKS: Nancy, from the evidence that we have so far, there was something that happened between Michael and the officer while the officer was in the car, without question. I think that the evidence in this case, though, will have to look at what the injuries to the officer and the injuries to Michael that may be attributed to whatever happened as Michael stood outside of the car.

"that cut mark plus the other injuries to Michael`s hand plus whatever injuries to the officer, then you can start explaining what may have happened in the car."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/18/ng.01.html

D. PARKS: Let me explain to you a few things. Number one, you`re going to notice that there`s an injury to his hand. That particular injury probably came at a close range, you`re going to find out later. Second, when we talk about front to back -- front to back mainly...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! Let me...

D. PARKS: ... applies to two things...

GRACE: ... let me hear what you`re saying. You`re saying that the gunshot wound to his right hand is at close range, although the autopsy is saying no shots at close range.

D. PARKS: Well, let me explain it like this. It`s a big gash.

GRACE: What?

D. PARKS: It`s a big gash, so as you hear more about it, it`s a big gash on his hand.

GRACE: So it`s not -- are you telling me it`s not a gunshot?

D. PARKS: Now, how that`s -- no, it is a gunshot wound caused by the gun, but a bullet, but it`s a rather large gash in his hand.

GRACE: Well, why do you say it`s at close range?

D. PARKS: Secondly -- well, it`s pretty big and it`s pretty open.

GRACE: That doesn`t mean close range.

D. PARKS: Now, how and when it happened, I`ll leave that to the experts.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/18/ng.01.html


The autopsy by St. Louis County chief medical examiner Mary Case, released to state prosecutors late Friday, found that Brown, 18, had six gunshot wounds to the head and chest and was shot from the front
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...016ef8-26f4-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

"None of the witnesses actually have said brown was shot in the back"
"It struck my friend in the back."
Video here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...uson-missouri-teen-shooting-witness/13992387/

"wilson had to have been made to feel threatened."

No, he had to believe Michael was a threat to himself or others. There's a difference. Multiple laws and info regarding what constitutes a justifiable and/or excusable homicide have been posted here. Supreme Court ruling:

This case requires us to determine the constitutionality of the use of deadly force to prevent the escape of an apparently unarmed suspected felon. We conclude that such force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=471&invol=1

"Wilson played judge, jury and executioner that day"
This phrase gets old. The shooting occurred as Officer Wilson attempted to apprehend a violent suspect who had already assaulted him. Apprehending suspects is his job. Michael was a suspect in an armed robbery and even the family's attorney admits both Darren and Michael were in an altercation at the car with injuries. Michael also struggled for the gun.

The source claims that there is "solid proof" that there was a struggle between Brown and Wilson for the policeman’s firearm, resulting in the gun going off
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/2...en-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

Finally, police officers may use deadly force to stop or apprehend a fleeing felon, but only if the suspect is armed or has committed a crime that involved the infliction or threatened infliction of serious injury or death.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide


"suggest he purposedly punched wilson"
I can't decipher what this means. Michael accidentally punched Officer Wilson?

Thank goodness you are here!!!
Thank you!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lovejac]

http://fox2now.com/2014/09/19/new-community-center-opens-in-ferguson-this-weekend/

New community center opens in Ferguson this weekend

 

[reedus23]

We know some of what the officers testimony is because of what the chief has said. No one is making that up. And a few of the witnesses have said MB was moving forward, even if just by a centimeter.

Did you see what I had bolded. Are there 2 autopsies that have been released to the public? As for what the chief said, well it goes without saying, I take what he says with a grain of salt as well. Doesn't mean he's out and out lying, though I suppose that's a possibility, but he has clearly been mistaken before.

 

[reedus23]

Would your opinion change at all IF a witness or 3 came forward, and said that as OW began to step out of his vehicle, MB rushed him, shoved him back in and began hitting him in the face? And if there were fingerprints from MB on the gun? And pictures of the officers injuries. Would that change anything for you?

What about what happened 100+ feet from the vehicle, both with MB and OW? Because all of that stuff could be true and a scenario can still exist where the shooting was unjustified.