MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #20

[reedus23]

How threatened would you or the average person feel if after being punched in the face and tried to take your gun ...by a 6'4" 300 pound man....then man came at you a second time?





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Good question. How far away is he? How many times have I already shot him? How fast is he moving at me? Is he bull rushing me or is he stumbling forward because I shot him already? Were his hands up during this time? Sure there's other questions I'd have to know the answers too as well, but I get what you're saying and those will all be factors. I think I've always said that those things will help paint the picture. Or I guess the old pieces of a puzzle analogy. Each of those are pieces to the puzzle but not the puzzle itself.

 

[reedus23]

But there will be questions if he was indeed surrendering.

Yes there will be questions. The GJ will give us our preliminary answers to those questions and depending on their answer, a jury will give us the final answer. My only point is, without knowing what the GJ will know, they are still just questions.

 

[reedus23]

Jdstl ‏@Jdstl314 7m
The Protesters may not be the ones who disrupt the game. #NoJusticeNoFootball #Ferguson @OpFerguson pic.twitter.com/Yzi4z2f5wo



So now they are saying the players are going to disrupt the game. I kind of doubt that. The way NFL players are dropping like flies from the rolls.

I'm gonna bet that the top brass with both teams have talked to the players. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the players would have, at some point, raised there hands. I think I've even seen an article with an NFL player from Ferguson (can't remember who he plays for). Guys who've grown up in similar surroundings could be tempted to show support by doing as much. Or as part of a TD celebration. But I don't think they'll interrupt the game itself or shut it down.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Good question. How far away is he? How many times have I already shot him? How fast is he moving at me? Is he bull rushing me or is he stumbling forward because I shot him already? Were his hands up during this time? Sure there's other questions I'd have to know the answers too as well, but I get what you're saying and those will all be factors. I think I've always said that those things will help paint the picture. Or I guess the old pieces of a puzzle analogy. Each of those are pieces to the puzzle but not the puzzle itself.

What's your options if he's still coming toward you?
Run?
According to landscaper Wilson was moving backwards as he fired those last shots....as the distance between them shrank.
He's trained to keep pulling the trigger until he's stopped. Not take a long pause in between each shot and reevaluate the situation.

I would bet Brown turned after the first series of shots...Wilson pause...and Brown started coming for him...Wilson fired until Brown dropped.




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[reedus23]

Ok all, I'm off to bed. Thanks once again for bearing with me and for the good discussion. Always give me a lot to think about and make me challenge myself and for that I am thankful.

Oh, and thanks for the levity at times as well. Gotta go clean up and go to bed.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

In all honesty, there is probably a multitude of reasons. The GJ process certainly does seem to be more advantageous for a prosecuting attorney. I could be wrong, but I believe in a preliminary hearing, OW's attorneys would get the chance to actually cross examine any witnesses. I'm sure there are other valid reasons as well but I'm not coming up with anything off the top of my head.

I far as I know, in a preliminary hearing, both the prosecutors and defense get to examine witness's. It's public so the defense gets to see what the State has at an early stage of a case. Not so with the Grand Jury.

Usually the State uses the Grand Jury to get an indictment instead of a preliminary hearing because they get to protect their strategy from the defense and it's a one sided affair. In other words, it's a piece of cake to get an indictment plus they can keep some evidence and their plans from the defense until discovery or trial.

What I'm curious about is if the State is not serious about getting an indictment, will that effect the Grand Jury's decision?

JMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

Ok all, I'm off to bed. Thanks once again for bearing with me and for the good discussion. Always give me a lot to think about and make me challenge myself and for that I am thankful.

Oh, and thanks for the levity at times as well. Gotta go clean up and go to bed.

Goodnight!
Don't forget to brush your tooth!


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[Muffet]

Fair enough. The fact is that the report includes an entry at 7:00 that evening saying something along the lines of no subject found fitting the description. It is my opinion that until FPD themselves come out and explain this themselves that that record does not jive with anyone within the FPD having claimed to know MB matched the description at any time prior to 7:00.

:thumbup: I almost wish someone from the Brown side would agree with you that it doesn't jive, just so an official would explain it better than we have, like they did with the FOIA conspiracy theory. Lol

For the record, while I don't think ODW's knowledge or not of the robbery is a big deal for his own defense, I do think it matters a lot to Chief Belmar.

This would be no small mistake like the others. So if it turns out that he was lying about it, I'll be among the first to call to fire him on the spot. I expect the FBI et al would have already, thankfully. Still. You have my word on that.

 

[katydid23]

Good question. How far away is he? How many times have I already shot him? How fast is he moving at me? Is he bull rushing me or is he stumbling forward because I shot him already? Were his hands up during this time? Sure there's other questions I'd have to know the answers too as well, but I get what you're saying and those will all be factors. I think I've always said that those things will help paint the picture. Or I guess the old pieces of a puzzle analogy. Each of those are pieces to the puzzle but not the puzzle itself.

True, but if you were already attacked, fought for your life, had a facial injury, jumped out in pursuit, were firing at him legally, and he turned, then you would have seconds to determine if he was still a threat or not. So those pieces of the puzzle are going to look different to you than to someone across the street and down the block. It may look like 'hands up' as in surrender to someone down the street. But if you were just several feet away, and he turned and moved towards you, hands up might look like a threat, not a surrender.

I just don't think a jury is going to convict an officer in this circumstance. He was a victim at the start of the interaction between them. He was blindsided and assaulted and had to fight over his weapon. So although there might be some fuzzy grey area, where the initial shots were justified, some think he should have stopped shooting, at some point, are they really going to put an officer in prison, for a judgment call? If MB was falling forward, or stumbling, would OW know that for sure?

I, myself wish he had stopped before the final volley of shots. It would have worked out better for everyone if MB just had the arm wounds and he survived. Maybe he would have turned his life around. But I am not going to blame the officer, because he did not create the situation. He was reacting to a life and death situation and he deserves to go home to his child each night.

 

[Muffet]

I don't think it's a hot zone. At least I hope not. Just good discussion. And absolutely agree about Lambchop and all the mods.

Yeah, had I not been deep in ebola research all day, I would have just said fast and furious. Y'all were flying.

(The Hot Zone is a book about ebola for those who haven't also heard it referenced ad nauseam )

My brain is now fried. I think I got as far as the ODW pics before I got the first reply notification. Thank you for those. :heartbeat:

 

[Muffet]

I far as I know, in a preliminary hearing, both the prosecutors and defense get to examine witness's. It's public so the defense gets to see what the State has at an early stage of a case. Not so with the Grand Jury.

Usually the State uses the Grand Jury to get an indictment instead of a preliminary hearing because they get to protect their strategy from the defense and it's a one sided affair. In other words, it's a piece of cake to get an indictment plus they can keep some evidence and their plans from the defense until discovery or trial.

What I'm curious about is if the State is not serious about getting an indictment, will that effect the Grand Jury's decision?

JMO

I'm sure the GJ understands the reasons for it all, either way.

I think, if anything, they, McCullough, and assistant DAs presenting the case would be most relieved if they could find something to placate the protesters, calm everyone down, and get all the attackers off their backs.

I think IF they knew from the start that he was justified (which would be hard without all the forensics etc.), then the worst they did was crumble to all of the intense political pressure coming from Ferguson to the Governor, to DC.

It's sad. I saw the Times Mag today trying to twist it into another conspiracy, and started to Lol, until I remembered that these are real people getting slimed in national media for other's political agendas.

I mean seriously, like they wouldn't have trashed him had he used the other alternatives?

Cold and intellectually dishonest.


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[popsicle]

Bahhhhh haaaaa haaaaaa
Lmao!
You're the best!!
(((Hugs)))

Send me your pixels peeps !!!!


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I am pulling my best tech peeps and putting them on the job. :seeya:

 

[popsicle]

I'm gonna bet that the top brass with both teams have talked to the players. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the players would have, at some point, raised there hands. I think I've even seen an article with an NFL player from Ferguson (can't remember who he plays for). Guys who've grown up in similar surroundings could be tempted to show support by doing as much. Or as part of a TD celebration. But I don't think they'll interrupt the game itself or shut it down.

:floorlaugh: Players have been raising their hands up after a TD and FG for yrs.

 

[Lovejac]

Sorry, forgot who posted this link earlier this evening about new Community Center in Ferg, but TY.
http://fox2now.com/2014/09/19/new-community-center-opens-in-ferguson-this-weekend/
Glad they were able to remodel/renovate old church & school into community center.
~25-35sec in, vid shows various rooms, as reporter describes gym, teen room, etc.
The teen room has ...wait for it......
.
.
.
a foosball table.
Is Ferg. council counting on this to keep teens off the street & out of trouble?
Now, if they can just install a Tardis to time travel back to 1950's, it'll be a surefire success, lol.

Everybody knows you need a ping pong table to keep teens off the street :wink:

 

[Lovejac]

It's come to my attention that our colleague, Linda7NJ is using a cell phone that is so old, it has only a 13" CRT black and white screen, and so big she has to wheel it around in a crate. I also heard her picture flickers a bit, and she's using tinfoil and rabbit ears to tune in WS more clearly while on the go. In the spirit of friendship and collegiality, I've decided to take up a collection of pixels for our friend, with the hopes that with the new pixels, she will be able to work out some kind of upgrade to her phone, so she can see red (literally, not figuratively!) Feel free to PM your excess pixels to Linda7NJ, and for the mean time, it would be polite to avoid red!

We love you, Linda7NJ! (And we know it's not your fault!)

Linda looks best in blues and greens anyway. Goes better with her hair color. :biggrin:

 

[Lovejac]

I'm not questioning the initial shot in the vehicle and whether it was justified based on what we know. But that right to use deadly force doesn't go on forever. It ends when the person surrenders himself to arrest.

I'm not asking you to question it. I just want to know what you think MB would have done it he had managed to get Officer Wilson's weapon from him.

 

[sonjay]

If solid info surfaced that ODW had propensity to useexcessive force,
say, citizen complaints in his former PD and FPD, and documented & reported to Chief(s) at the time (not coming up after MB death),
Sometimes tasing, sometimes baton, and one shooting.
internal affairs had investigated, found cause for 3 reprimands, for 3 suspensions, ea. of 1 wk unpaid leave.
Most recent was 6 mo ago.
IOW, a pattern of use of excessive force in LE duties. Against whites & blacks equally, if that matters.
All ^this^ is just hypothetical only, for this discussion.

Something like ^that^ w/make me rethink and probably (undoubtedly?) push me to conclude shooting was unjustified.

For those believing shooting was justified, what would it take to make you rethink? To switch to unjustified?

If evidence surfaced about OW's history showing a pattern of excessive force, it would make me think that he might well be the kind of person who would shoot MB without justification. But you can't -- legally, at least -- convict a person for some particular incident based on their propensity for that type of behavior in the past. In order to conclude that the MB shooting was not justified, I would need to see evidence that the MB shooting was not justified. Such as, credible witnesses who don't contradict themselves and the physical evidence every time they open their mouths. Forensic evidence that indicates an unjustified shoot. Video of the actual shooting would be great.

Just like I wouldn't convict MB of assault on a police officer based on his assault on a store clerk 10 minutes earlier. The strong-arm robbery & assault at the store show that MB was the kind of person who would assault someone, but are not proof that he assaulted OW. I believe he assaulted OW based on statements from the various witnesses, and the fact that OW had to go to the hospital to be treated for his injury or injuries, plus my own common sense and logic (as in, it makes no sense for OW to have grabbed MB and attempted to pull him into the car, but because of the earlier store robbery, it does make sense for MB to have assaulted OW in an attempt to avoid arrest). I'm guessing there's also some forensic evidence of the assault, but that's just a guess at this point. If MB were alive today and charged with assaulting a police officer, I would want to see the medical reports on OW's injury or injuries, hear testimony from OW himself about the alleged assault, and hopefully see physical evidence supporting the assault charge. Without sufficient credible evidence of the assault, I couldn't convict MB of said assault.

Now, the kind of hypothetical evidence you describe would definitely make me think that OW should not be wearing a badge. But could I or would I conclude that the MB shooting was unjustified based on a (hypothetical) history of excessive force? No. Not in OW's case, not in anyone's case, black or white, cop or not.

 

[Klood-N]

IMO, it's irresponsible and illogical to imply thuggery or a poor record regarding Darren, as it's been clearly reported he is "an excellent officer" and "quiet" who received a commendation for service, with "no complaints". We have to ignore information we already have. That is smearing, especially when it's wild speculation, no links available.

Discussing Brown's crimes, his drug use, his raps, his state of mind is not smearing. There is evidence and social media to support that. Not to mention a bunch of that information Michael proudly displayed on his SM. It's what he wanted others to know about him.

 

[Klood-N]

I saw a post somewhere last night that thought it was wrong to reference Michael's size.

First it's very relevant since he used it to intimidate and manhandle the store clerk. Per previous links, he was known to use his size to intimidate, aka appear threatening.

Since he'd shoved the officer back into the car, likely on top of him, and was hitting him and wrestling for the gun, his size (and aggression) matter.

He played offensive tackle in football and is the same size as an NFL offensive tackle. (Linked previously)

Lesley has out n out stated he was shot because he was big and black. Some referred to him as a "gentle giant".

Everyone called him "Mike-Mike." He's so big, they said, you have to call him twice.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ferguson-michael-brown-20140817-story.html

So, his size is relevant and a part of this case.

 

[sonjay]

IMO, it's irresponsible and illogical to imply thuggery or a poor record regarding Darren, as it's been clearly reported he is "an excellent officer" and "quiet" who received a commendation for service, with "no complaints". We have to ignore information we already have. That is smearing, especially when it's wild speculation, no links available.

Well, in al66pine's defense, h/she was asking a hypothetical, and made it clear it was a hypothetical.

Discussing Brown's crimes, his drug use, his raps, his state of mind is not smearing.

I totally agree with you there.

smear: "damage the reputation of (someone) by false accusations; slander."

MB earned his reputation. If his family and his family's lawyers hadn't made such a big deal out of what a young, innocent boy he was, the information about his thuggery likely wouldn't be such a big deal, either. But they've painted a false picture of "innocent young boy" to smear an innocent police officer. It's totally justified, IMO, to point out facts that show the falsity of that picture. And to defend the innocent cop who has been smeared mercilessly.