MO - Jermane Johnson, 18 mos, drowned in bathtub, Kansas City, 3 June 2011

[arielilane]

Sorry but imo a 5 y/o can not be held accountable for this! The adults who were not present are the one's who are responsible for this baby's death...they should have been more responsible in choosing a babysitter.

I agree. The parent(s) that left the children with a babysitter to go off to pick up someone at a bus stop, should be held accountable.

 

[nosysw]

I feel confident in saying that a child that age who has developmental delays would not have the problem solving skills that this child seems to have. She had a problem and she solved the problem. Children with developmental delays don't have the ability to solve a problem that they're faced with.

I have to take exception to this...Developmental delays cover a wide spectrum...If this boy was constantly crying and she put an end to it, I don't see that as a thought out plan. I see that as a child who was overwhelmed (I don't even want to open up the can of worms about possible disorders such as Sensory Integration Disorder) and reacted to it in a way that we have no idea was learned behavior or a sudden idea that popped into her head.

Maybe she'd been scared by someone in this manner i.e. "I'll kill you if you don't shut up" or something but a 5 year old has no concept of the finality of death-even if they can express in words what it means.

Also, it was indicated that the tub was already full of water. I could go alot easier to the idea of her planning how to solve a problem if she filled the tub.

No matter what the case, IMO it is crazy to think that a 5 year old is responsible for this, no matter what her abilities, intent or frame of mind was...That's why we can't leave 5 year olds alone...(or presumably under the care of a disabled 16 year old who is also "caring" for three other children)...

 

[scapa]

I don't see a case here. My five year-old is an adoring brother to my three year-old, but the other day sat on his head with a beanbag to "hear his funny underwater voice." Would I pursue an attempted-murder charge based on that? Mais non. Would I choose a sitter carefully? Darn right I would. Here, IMHO, are the main obstacles to bringing a case against the 5 year-old:

1. A five year-old child cannot participate in her or his own defence, something that is protected by the constitution

2. A five year-old cannot form the criminal intent required for a murder charge -- not sure what the age constraints are in Kansas, but would be amazed if it went down to 5

3. How trustworthy is the testimony of a child this young? Especially in admitting to wrongdoing? Mine thinks he can make the moon invisible. He'll swear to it. He'll also tell long and complicated stories that contain facts from today, last week and bits from books he's read and added to his mental stockpile. I wouldn't put him on the stand.

4, What prosecutor is going to want to try this case? Can you imagine an adult DA in full flow bearing down on a kindergarten kid? No way.

No murder charge forthcoming here, is my guess. I'd expect some sort of negligence charge to be brought, and rightly so.

s

 

[Shelby2]

I wonder if the five year old did this at all.

 

[Fairy1]

I wonder if the five year old did this at all.

I wonder the same. And I wonder where the water came from. Did I miss that? It was in a bathtub, right? Did the 5-year-old actually draw the bath herself?

 

[Missizzy]

The standing water was definitely a danger. IIRC, it was left in the tub after another child bathed. Never ever safe with a toddler in the house.

As far as the babysitter being a mentally challenged (ID) 16 year old, I'd like more info. Where was the bus stop? If it was 200 feet from the door, I have no problem--other than water being in the tub. If the parent drove away, I have a problem.

When one of my daughters who has ID was 16, she worked at a high end nursing home with the Alzheimer's patients. She has a 63 IQ and it was shocking what tasks she was given to do. I was continually worried about safety. However, much of the time, she did a fabulous job. She had a job coach but the woman was not always present. Once again, there's a huge spectrum of ID and ability to care for children and/or at risk elders.

The water was a tragic mistake, IMO. If the 16 year old was the one who bathed the children and left it there, that proves she wasn't capable of watching the children. Lack of understanding of cause and effect. But I'd still like to know how long the parents were gone. Was the water there when they left?

 

[MsFacetious]

It is clear that this family was not as knowledgeable as our MizzIzzy and did not know what the babysitter could handle. Not that even a typical 16 year old should be watching 2 infants and 4 children. Even when one of the infants is her own.

Grandma was allegedly gone for 15 minutes to go to the train station to pick up the Uncle.

It sounds like the kids were actually in the bathtub at the time. Not water left after a bath.

It doesn't sound like the babysitter was sleeping, it sounds like she was running around trying to care for 6 kids.


I do not think they should charge the babysitter.

I do not think they should charge the 5 year old with murder. (I cannot believe I just said that.)

I have been holding off commenting on this thread because everytime I think of it, my jaw drops and I have so many thoughts running around. I think this is one of the more tragic stories I've read.

Where does a 5 year old get the idea to do this? How does a 5 year old come up with drowning a baby as a solution to crying?

I don't think a 5 year old can comprehend the permanence of death.

They can comprehend that putting the baby's head under a pillow muffles their cries.

They can comprehend that putting the baby's head under water shuts them up completely.

They can especially comprehend those things if they have witnessed or experienced it at some point.
Or even accidentally figured it out... by playfully "burying" a child in a "castle" of pillows or something.

They can comprehend that once that baby stops moving and is finally quiet, they can "have some peace and quiet." I highly doubt they would comprehend it's permanent.

I feel confident in saying that a child that age who has developmental delays would not have the problem solving skills that this child seems to have. She had a problem and she solved the problem. Children with developmental delays don't have the ability to solve a problem that they're faced with.

Although my daughter is kind of an anomaly... she does have Down syndrome and so is technically delayed.

When she was 5, I looked in the window from outside and caught her drinking my Mountain Dew. I opened the other door and she quickly set it back down and ran back to where she had been when I went outside. Being sneaky and covering her tracks. Her more typical sister can't do that at 7. :innocent:

My daughter also does get very overwhelmed at loud noises. She hates the dog barking and will yell at the dog. She never hurts the dog. She does look out the window, see the cat the dog is barking at, shut the curtains, move the chair the dog is standing on so she can't get up there and go about her business. Problem solving.

My daughter does NOT like to ask for help. She is incredibly independent. When she was born I was told several things she wouldn't do. Including problem solving, manipulating and role playing. She does them all... far better than I'd like sometimes. :innocent:

 

[MsFacetious]

"I just want people to know it was an accident. I know what happened. I know in my heart what happened," the young single parent said.

There were seven children in the home that night; the oldest was Curry's 16-year old sister who has some mental disabilities and was caring for two infants as well as the four older children.

------------------------
.....and she ran back to tend to her baby and her other nephew," Curry said.

"I don't fault nobody; it's just my sister she didn't understand to check him to see if he was gasping for air," Curry said

http://www.kplr11.com/news/ktvi-mother-speak-5-year-old-drowns-kc-61211,0,213969.story

 

[Shelby2]

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/06/09/police-girl-drowned-baby-because-he-cried-too-much/

Police said they are also looking into the health of other children being cared for in the home and the decision by the adult to leave the children alone with the 16-year-old.

 

[peeples]

Interestingly, Urdang said the child will most likely need counseling to deal with the death, but probably not until later in her life, when she can fully understand the gravity of the situation.

"When you can't understand what you have done, you don't have a post-traumatic response," she said. "The counseling would be needed to help the young teenager or adult understand that they had no idea what they were doing and they couldn't possibly be responsible."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/10/five-year-old-murder-suspect_n_875217.html

 

[NoraEltrain]

I am going to be hated for this post, I just know it.

IMO, a 5 year old understands permanence, especially if they've seen The Lion King or had a pet die.

I knew Mufasa was dead, etc.

Charge the 5 year old and the babysitter.

 

[nosysw]

I am going to be hated for this post, I just know it.

IMO, a 5 year old understands permanence, especially if they've seen The Lion King or had a pet die.

I knew Mufasa was dead, etc.

Charge the 5 year old and the babysitter.

I don't hate you, you have a right to your opinion, but I do think you're misinformed.

Children may be able to state someone is dead and even that that means they're not coming back. Yet a day, week, month later that same child will ask "So when is daddy coming home?". Study after study has shown that children, even up to the age of 12, really do not grasp the concept and the permanency although they may be able to repeat the "definition". I have worked with children in mental health for 12 years (and informally for many years before that) and I absolutely have seen evidence of this over and over again...

My sister had a tragic boating accident and her arm was severed...for years my kid would ask when her "arm was coming back" although it was explained to them many times that it was not a temporary issue. They would understand in the moment but could not grasp it in perpetuity.

 

[Kat]

Instead of pulling quotes from some very dry reading (IMHO) from jean piaget's theories on childhood development and such (unless someone wants a direct link then I'll go get one if asked no problem or pull the book and give page number and paragraph no problem) I grabbed this link because it pretty much sums up nicely what a child at a certain age can understand about death and the abstracts contained therein.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001909.htm

snipped:

Age 2 - 6 years:
•Often believes that death is reversible, temporary
•May perceive death as a punishment
•Engages in magical thinking that wishes come true -- may feel guilt for negative feelings toward the person who died, and think that was the cause of death

Also noteworthy is that each child is an individual and develops at his or her own pace and may not come to understand death at one stage and move into the next stage. It depends on their environment and their caretakers talking and explaining to them.

IMHO I could talk until I was blue in the face to a five year old but the fact remains that that child would still not completely understand the permanency of death or the abstract concept of heaven (which is how many do explain where a loved one who has died goes to).

IMHO the Grandmother who left the children alone with a 16 yr old mental disabilities should be the only person charged with anything. JMHO