MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #8

[matou]

I just can't see someone opening a door or window and entering the house and opening baby Lisa's bedroom door (right beside mom's room?) taking Lisa, walking out with Lisa and leaving through the door and closing it AND no one hearing anything at all. Is there another exit/entry way other than the front door? Is there a screen door as well as an "inside" door? Closing any door with a child in your arms would make noise in my opinion, unless the perp is an expert in holding a 30 lb baby who's asleep. I don't know guys, I'm not seeing it. JMO

 

[tlcya]

Welcome realestatenovelist! great first post, look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

 

[MyBelle]

She isn't coming off truthful to a lot of viewers in these interviews or in her actions.

Earlier today, someone wondered if the family might be monitoring the community/public response or reactions to the family. It was suggested that the FB postings and comments made by the family spokesperson seemed to directly answer to the suspicions being voiced in public forums.

Just after, within an hour or two, of someone here referring to the mother as something of a drama queen (can't remember the exact description,) a news report then came out that the family would not be making the pre-arranged media interviews and were going to meet with LE instead. Then within the next hour it was reported that the family would take a day of rest.

Sounds like the family expects one or both of the parents to be arrested.

Many on forums have commented how we would react if our own child was suddenly missing but I doubt anybody here has any idea how we would react if we were involved in our child's disappearance and knew police were onto our criminal misconduct.

I think refusing to cooperate and withdrawing from the public eye is a reaction attributed to consciousness of guilt.


JMO

 

[In da Middle]

TES is not always called and they are not always welcome by LE either. Most families of missing have no idea who TES is until someone like us points it out to them. LE has gotten better about letting outside search orgs help, but many still say no.

This area is very familiar and grateful to TES, though. Tim Miller found Kelsey Smith.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I have a genuine question.. I have been lurking on little Lisa's case when it was brought to my attn thru following little Aliayah's case out of WV.. And thus far have stayed in lurkdom here on Lisa's thread due to so many of you all already asking and discussing all of the issues and details that I have questioned or find to interesting and/or telling.. I have not seen this discussed at any length(but easily could have missed where it was).. But what springs to mind as being "odd" to me was something from fairly early on and I still have yet to make sense of it in my mind.. Therefor I genuinely would like to inquire to all of you would this be the norm is you were ever to find yourself in a similar nightmare of one of our own children having been abducted.. Because in putting myself in their shoes and going with the circumstances being exactly as they are being told to be(I.e. Someone entered the home during the night when mom and 3 children were sleeping and abducted baby Lisa.. And upon dad returning home from working his first night shift he discovers 10 month old Lisa is gone and their 3 cell phones are taken).. In putting myself in that scenario I cannot fathom in my wildest dreams that myself and my husband would be able to come up with an actual list of MORE THAN 10 DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS that we found to be suspicious and even remotely possible that they came in our home and abducted our youngest baby of 10mos in age!?!???!

So, I wanted to ask of you all following this case what is you alls opinion on this issue?? Do you all find that to be of no significance or alarming on any level!? Do you all in thinking of your circle of fam and friends, acquantices, co-workers, if you found yourself in similar situation would you be able to list more than 10 individuals to whom you feel could possibly the perp that abducted your child??? I know that we can't because I have brought this exact issue to me hubby and we both agreed that this just wasn't even remotely possible for us to come up with even a handful.. Much less a dozen different ppl we know that we'd feel capable of such a crime!! Never in a million years!!

This is something in all the many cases I have never seen a family come up with a list right off the bat of such great magnitude of ppl in and around their lives that the parents believe strong enough that these persons are capable of committing such a crime that they put them on a list and handed over to LE to investigate them..

Are we the strange ones?? That we don't know of a dozen ppl we could list?? Is that strange?? Because I am very alarmed at a family being able to compile such an extensive list of possibilities.. Do most agree??

So, that's my question.. Is this norm.. Or do u find this normal?? Or is this unusual ??

I just know that in my putting ourselves(hubby and I) in these peoples exact shoes that this list of a dozen individuals just is not probable, plausible, nor even possible for us personally to do???

Others??

 

[In da Middle]

It annoys me so much when people say.. "if it were me I would be...." or "if it were my child there's no way I would....", because hey guess what? it's NOT you, so how can you possibly have a clue how you would behave? How you think you would behave and how you really would behave are often 2 VERY different things and I think it's highly distasteful to be so judgemental about something you have never experienced and therefore quite frankly have no right to be so critical about. If the mother was all laughs and smiles and knocking back shots in a bar, then fair enough, but honestly, the critical, judgemental, verging on imho nasty tone of some posts have left me speechless. I don't 100% feel this mother is not guilty, I am aware there is ALWAYS a chance that she, or in fact anybody is, but I just feel there are more gracious words to use in expressing an opinion than, what feels like, deliberately using a vindictive tone and i think that's my cue to step away for a while and if I get banned for this, then so be it.

Thank you!! My thoughts exactly!

 

[Curious Me]

It wouldn't but it seems the popular opinion is dad is not involved or they both are, just wondering why mom can't catch a break.

I think Dad declared he was at work, and LE felt it checked out. LE didn't feel it necessary to give him a LDT either. Why not? However, I think if he has any doubts about DB he might of talked to LE without her knowing.

I feel really sorry for both of them, but I'm finding the main theme being everything was new and different that one night, and it was that night the baby got snatched out of her crib. Hmm...

Dad appears stiff to me, and not out there with emotions like the mother. He doesn't seem particularly comforting to her sometimes. What's going on in his mind?

 

[Pacific2011]

Let's just suppose that the teenaged neighbor is responsible for taking little Lisa from her home.

He/She cannot take the baby to his/her house because his/her parents would know immediately. He/She would not need to use a car because all of these locations are within easy walking distance to his/her home.

However, he/she knows that there is a river about 4 blocks or so from the home. He/she could easily dispose of a baby in a fast flowing river in the middle of the night.

My gut feeling is that this teenager is a male and was seen by the passing motorist around midnight, he stole the baby in the middle of the night for sexual reasons, and when he was done doing what he wanted to do with her, he put her into the river. When he realized that he had stashed her clothing into a pocket of his clothing, he went to the dumpster and set the clothing on fire.

My guess is that as he was retrieving the clothing from his pocket, he inadvertently "butt dialed" one of the cell phones he had stolen from the Irwin home. Since the dumpster site, as well as his own home are in close proximity to the Irwin home, it stands to reason that cell phone pings would show as being from the same area/location--and not necessarily from the Irwin home itself.

So, that is the theory that I have been tossing around this afternoon. Any thoughts?

Also, why have we not heard of any searches being done near the riverfront if it is so close to the home?

I agree that your theory makes a lot of sense, and so does your question re: searching the riverfront. Thank you.

 

[shefner]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I hope I am allowed to say what I'm about to say:

When I look at pictures of baby Lisa, I see a child that is loved, well-fed, appropriately dressed, engaging with the people around her, and most of all happy. The fact that there are so many pictures tells me her parents and family are enjoying watching her grow and develop. If there was any involvement by the family, to me it would have to be a tragic accident, followed by panic.

As far as the dad, I don't think he is involved. I think he came home to a nightmare situation, and has no reason to believe his wife was involved. He would believe what she told him.

The mom, I'm just not feeling her. I do believe her tears are genuine- she is genuinely sad and heart-broken that her daughter is gone. Whether or not there is guilt mixed in with that sadness, well, I guess time will tell.

All IMHO, of course.

Thanks for a great first post and welcome to Websleuths!

For some reason, I feel that dad knows something. I think he knows if mom did something. He has a flat affect and demeanor, which I attribute to shock. But his body language towards the mom is primarily distant.

I could be wrong.

 

[IrishMist]

I've got a slightly different theory. This is pure speculation, so please don't anyone take it as an accusation. Maybe the teenage neighbour was paid by another adult to take the baby? He had access to the house through the garage, and he may not have been fully aware of the implications of what he was doing.

I'm thinking of the guy who kidnapped Steven Stayner back in the 70s. He got another guy to help him, and the accomplice had no clue he was a paedophile! I think he got a teenager to help him kidnap Timmy White too, and again the teenager had no clue that he was helping a pervert.

I've been thinking along these lines, too.

 

[tlcya]

hi SmoothOperator :wave: I too have been following little Aliayah, to my great frustration, and Lisa's case simultaneously.

This has been debated but the threads move very quickly and it was easily missed.

Many find this number unbeleivable and feel very much as you do.

Still others, myself included, find this completely understandable.

My thinking is this. Police I am sure have asked them to think of ANYONE, anyone at all who they've had a dispute with, who seemed too into baby Lisa, who dislikes either of the couple, etc etc. Faced with the unthinkable, my baby missing, I could come up with some people who for whatever reason didn't care for me, my husband, etc.

 

[Coldpizza]

I think the idea of a rest day is bizarre as all get out. There is no "rest" day for the parents of a missing child. Let me tell ya....every moment of every day you are pacing the floors, walking the sidewalks, calling someone on the phone, begging anyone who will listen to help you...anything you can do to find your child. I was almost mad with energy and exhaustion all at the same time. Over time, you feel yourself begin to detach...as if you are watching yourself from afar. This coping mechanism is natural and part of self-protection. Its surreal.

The anti-anxiety medication simply keeps you from being hysterical. I begged LE to camp out at my house...I asked to drive, call, search, plead...anything they could find for me to do, I wanted to do it. I retold every detail about my child that I could remember...every place we had been, every friend he had, every place he had spent the night, all of his teachers and classes and little hobbies. I pulled out all the pictures and awards and little hand prints....we took his room apart searching for any clue. There were no hours in the day...day and night all blended together.

Even now, years since the event, my heart races at the thought of those days. When hubby and I discuss it, we both get very animated with loud voices and tears and odd details that we still remember. If it gets on my mind, I still can't sleep....I have to get up and move around. Thank God for ambien.

Life is never the same again, even when your child is recovered. Even when they grow up...you still have residual challenges. There is the child and their issues....you and yours. And then your other children who are greatly effected. Every one is traumatized to some level. To this day, even now that the siblings are older, they call to check on us and each other throughout the day...between classes and jobs. When hubby and I are out, they call to check on us EVERY TIME they hear a siren. Our son who was missing has grown up and has somewhat removed himself from our lives even though we have sought every kind of help we can. We hear about him through a few contacts...but our whole relationship is complicated and painful.

Nothing is the same again...nothing.

Your post brought tears to my eyes. So hard to judge someone unless you've walked a mile in their shoes. I've missed alot today but I gather the parents are taking some time off? After reading your post having walked that mile a time off is not an option. I cant imagine taking a time off either. Thank you for sharing a piece of your heart with us today .....you just never know ((((hugs))))

 

[Curious Me]

Very true, but a baby will crawl/toddle after a kitten. I wish we knew the extent of baby Lisa's mobility. When is her birthday? Is she closer to 10 months or 11 months of age? Even a few weeks can make a huge difference in developmental milestones like crawling and walking.

Can't post a link right now, but it was one of the birthday pics where little 10 mo. old Lisa was sitting at a computer keyboard. She looked so sure of herself! I forget how motor skilled is a child at that age?

 

[wfgodot]

131 members and 101 guests right now - guests, come aboard and join, we value your opinions!

 

[lauriej]

Are we the strange ones?? That we don't know of a dozen ppl we could list?? Is that strange?? Because I am very alarmed at a family being able to compile such an extensive list of possibilities.. Do most agree??

So, that's my question.. Is this norm.. Or do u find this normal?? Or is this unusual ??

I just know that in my putting ourselves(hubby and I) in these peoples exact shoes that this list of a dozen individuals just is not probable, plausible, nor even possible for us personally to do???

Others??

..my opinion -----i was under the assumption that they were asked to compile a list of people that had been to the home recently ( babysitter? plumber? etc), or had seen the baby recently (someone expressing an interest in her at the grocery store etc.)

..and not neccessarily someone they could think would be capable of kidnapping her.

 

[MyBelle]

DB said door to Lisa's nursery was open - said they always close it when Lisa goes to sleep at night.

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2011/10/0...-exclusive-interview-with-baby-lisas-parents/

Not necessarily new - but I want to comment on the baby monitor. DB said she didn't hear anything on the monitor. Question: what good is a baby monitor if no one hears anything on it?

Impossible to hear anything on a baby monitor if the baby isn't in the bed being monitored.

JMO

 

[Pacific2011]

ssnipped:

For some reason, I feel that dad knows something. I think he knows if mom did something. He has a flat affect and demeanor, which I attribute to shock. But his body language towards the mom is primarily distant.
I could be wrong.

I also sense that the parents are coming from two very different places emotionally. . . .

 

[mysticrose]

I have a genuine question.. I have been lurking on little Lisa's case when it was brought to my attn thru following little Aliayah's case out of WV.. And thus far have stayed in lurkdom here on Lisa's thread due to so many of you all already asking and discussing all of the issues and details that I have questioned or find to interesting and/or telling.. I have not seen this discussed at any length(but easily could have missed where it was).. But what springs to mind as being "odd" to me was something from fairly early on and I still have yet to make sense of it in my mind.. Therefor I genuinely would like to inquire to all of you would this be the norm is you were ever to find yourself in a similar nightmare of one of our own children having been abducted.. Because in putting myself in their shoes and going with the circumstances being exactly as they are being told to be(I.e. Someone entered the home during the night when mom and 3 children were sleeping and abducted baby Lisa.. And upon dad returning home from working his first night shift he discovers 10 month old Lisa is gone and their 3 cell phones are taken).. In putting myself in that scenario I cannot fathom in my wildest dreams that myself and my husband would be able to come up with an actual list of MORE THAN 10 DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS that we found to be suspicious and even remotely possible that they came in our home and abducted our youngest baby of 10mos in age!?!???!

So, I wanted to ask of you all following this case what is you alls opinion on this issue?? Do you all find that to be of no significance or alarming on any level!? Do you all in thinking of your circle of fam and friends, acquantices, co-workers, if you found yourself in similar situation would you be able to list more than 10 individuals to whom you feel could possibly the perp that abducted your child??? I know that we can't because I have brought this exact issue to me hubby and we both agreed that this just wasn't even remotely possible for us to come up with even a handful.. Much less a dozen different ppl we know that we'd feel capable of such a crime!! Never in a million years!!

This is something in all the many cases I have never seen a family come up with a list right off the bat of such great magnitude of ppl in and around their lives that the parents believe strong enough that these persons are capable of committing such a crime that they put them on a list and handed over to LE to investigate them..

Are we the strange ones?? That we don't know of a dozen ppl we could list?? Is that strange?? Because I am very alarmed at a family being able to compile such an extensive list of possibilities.. Do most agree??

So, that's my question.. Is this norm.. Or do u find this normal?? Or is this unusual ??

I just know that in my putting ourselves(hubby and I) in these peoples exact shoes that this list of a dozen individuals just is not probable, plausible, nor even possible for us personally to do???

Others??

I have alot of friends and family as well as my husband, and I can only think of 2 people that I know that might go to this extreme 1 for sure, but I have long sent them packing and only see them in passing, so if you minus them I would have nobody to list for LE........

 

[JBean]

wow.....how amazing it is to me.....all of the excuses made for this family not cooperating, not searching for their missing baby. I guess that is one reason there are so many of these cases. Parents acting badly always have excuse makers. Always someone elses fault. LE, media, society.....

or perhaps there are those that prefer to consider every possible angle and explanation before drawing judgment and conclusion.
Either which way not up to us to judge other members and their point of view- just challenge the point of view without challenging the members.For example- terms like "excuse maker" is highly derogatory and hardly representative of those that consider alternate theories.
KWIM?

 

[alsmom]

I agree about the parents having an odd interaction with each other. I'm just observing and not throwing stones, but their interaction seems off. It's as though she looks at him and he stoically looks down or straight ahead. They may have been this way before this happened. I, of course, don't know them. :fence: