MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #9

[Just-a-Guy]

I remember a case from constitutional law where a man fathered a child with a married woman and the child was legally considered the child of her spouse, and not her biological father. It was from the 70s, so I'm sure things have changed since then, but that could be cause for that idea.

Really? Well, jeez, I never heard any such thing before. As far as I know, there is no such thing as "constitutional law" on marriage. Or at least very little of it (that's why the states are free to "recognize" different kinds of marriages, for example). But hey, anything is possible in the world of matrimonial law.... Sadly.

 

[JBean]

As for chequered past-just think Brenda and Damon van Dam. Not getting on that train.

 

[abstr]

No problem! And yes, "matrimonial attorney" is sometimes translated as "divorce lawyer." But the truth is, they do much more. Pre-nups, post-nups, counseling, estate work, much much more. When it gets to the courthouse, yes, it's usually a divorce. A contested one or one with a custody battle. My wife has been assaulted on the courthouse steps by angry men (because she did such a good job representing the wife). You are lucky if you don't know how ugly it can get. There really are no limits. .... That's why I don't really do divorce work, except for long-time clients who really insist on my involvement. And then, I hate it.

My ex is a huge immature ....but I married him and I had kids with him. So I just made it as easy as possible. Maybe if money were a factor I'd have felt different. I want my kids to have a Dad so why fight if they are safe and cared for when with him.

I don't want to hear about Lisa's mother's almost ex husband unless it is relevant! Half the freaking US gets divorced....move on if it is not related to this case!

 

[jjenny]

Section of Missouri statutes regarding presumption of paternity (and rebuttal), for those interested:

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C200-299/2100000822.HTM

I am not sure that makes it any clearer. If she is legally married to the husband and they don't have an official declaration of separation does it mean he is assumed to be the legal father? I suppose it depends on who is on the birth certificate?

 

[marge_rita]

Video of Steve Young's interview tonight:

http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-steve-young-kcpd-lisa-irwin-update-20111008,0,6871031.story

I like this guy. Seems very straight forward and honest. He made 2 comments i love. "We'll end up talking to everybody."

and

"Listen to the voice in your head."


imo

 

[cluciano63]

And Amber Du Bois' stepfather underwent something like 8 polygraphs, trying desperately to get cleared, as his story was really kind of odd for the day Amber vanished. And they never did clear him, really, until the real killer was found. So sometimes, people do live under a cloud, unfortunately. But also sometimes the guilty parties never get charged...

 

[TGIRecovered]

If I am sleuthing the mother of Lisa and it turns out there was another suspicious event (a death) that occurred 10 years earlier, am I allowed to mention it?

:waitasec:

Maybe you could look for an obit or an MSM article from the time that the death occurred. :twocents:

 

[norest4thewicked]

Yes, they were there in real time, and they were only let in after LE had finished searching. So the state you see the room in is the state they left it in, NOT the state they found it in.

So, you don't think that LE could have stripped the entire crib (considering that we know investigators had been seen taking out bags of bedding) and then when the reporters and cameras came in they wanted to take photos of the room but did not want to show a bare crib, so they "fixed it up" just for the cameras? I do.

 

[wfgodot]

"Listen to the voice in your head."

I would suspect that this is directed specifically at one person. Don't know quite who though.

 

[JBean]

TY for that link, BeanE.

I seriously don't get what this whole so-called "checkered past" (as the reporter called it) deal is. So DB is still married to her ex - is that really a "checkered past"???? I don't think so.

Good grief - I think some of these reporters need to get a grip.

It is truly amazing to me that they can report that as a chequered past. I have big horizontal stripes in my past if that is the bar.
s-e-n-s-a-t-i-o-n-a-l

 

[OkGrace]

Let's take a vote here then? How many here would be more than happy to spend 11 hours (and no one knows they didn't have a break) and then spend 11 MORE if it would help to bring home their child? Interrogating someone for 11 hours is NOTHING and to me proves that LE must have something that led them to spend that much time.

IMO I am not sure I could stay 11 hours, I would probably be getting quite anxious and come unglued, if I were innocent I would be thinking precious time was being wasted.

IMO I think the parents may not be telling the entire story but I hope I am wrong. I too want this child to be found soon and safe, perhaps with someone who wanted a child and could not have one. I can hope.....

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Because the husband is assumed to be the father in a legal marriage,
men who are married to the mother but are not the bio dad can be required to pay child support. Since they were separated I am not sure if that applies here, but a legal assumption is that the husband is the father.

OK, I see, thanks. I guess these situations (and the statute southern comfort posted, thanks!) are designed to address a situation where someone else claims to be the father of a child born during a marriage...and the married couple (or one of them?) doesn't want to recognize that. I dunno. I see that there is a presumption, I didn't know that. I think I'll just keep my mouth shut about matrimonial law from now on. It's not my field. My wife would slap me for pretending it is (and I would be required to agree that I deserved it ).

 

[Cappuccino]

So, you don't think that LE could have stripped the entire crib (considering that we know investigators had been seen taking out bags of bedding) and then when the reporters and cameras came in they wanted to take photos of the room but did not want to show a bare crib, so they "fixed it up" just for the cameras? I do.

Oh, totally. Maybe I misunderstood your posts, or maybe I'm mixing you up with another poster, but I thought you were under the impression that the photograph was a representation of how the child's room was BEFORE it was searched. I was just pointing out that police don't tend to clean up after themselves when they've searched a room, that's all.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, and as for the media I totally agree with you.

 

[norest4thewicked]

I think Jerry Hobbs must have thought the same after his poor little daughter and her friend were murdered by a serial killer. That's why he let LE interrogate him for 14 hours without a break. Unfortunately for everybody, the psyche of a grieving, shocked, sleep deprived parent is not able to remain sane during a lengthy interrogation like that.

Result? Jerry Hobbs made a false confession, and the real killer went on to claim more victims while Mr Hobbs was languishing in jail for a crime he didn't commit.

The Ingrams were absolutely right to ask for a break after 11 hours. And it shouldn't take 11 hours for LE to ask the questions they need to ask anyway.

I know that there are exceptions to every rule. But in general, investigations like this are not like CSI Miami and need to be solved in an hour. I think that a break during 11 hours is totally needed, but how do we know that they didn't have a break? A lot of people think a break is to go home and take a nap. No...they should have received a chance to go to the bathroom and get something to eat...and I bet that they did.

 

[mamamia54]

There are two sex offenders living within just a few streets of Lisa's home.

 

[southern_comfort]

I am not sure that makes it any clearer. If she is legally married to the husband and they don't have an official declaration of separation does it mean he is assumed to be the legal father? I suppose it depends on who is on the birth certificate?

In this case, I have no idea whether they were legally separated. But, if a couple isn't legally separated, the husband is presumed to be the father and would be responsible for support -- IF someone came after him for it.

Again, though, where necessary, this presumption is pretty easy to overcome in the year 2011. I don't think paternity of baby L is in question (at least, I haven't seen any indication that it is).

 

[raeann]

It is truly amazing to me that they can report that as a chequered past. I have big horizontal stripes in my past if that is the bar.
s-e-n-s-a-t-i-o-n-a-l

I thought that was somewhat of an archaic term to be using.....by the 10 o'clock report she may very well be a "fallen woman"!!!! I hope that station gets LOTS of calls from LOTS of women who find that term insulting.

 

[Mojen]

In this case, I have no idea whether they were legally separated. But, if a couple isn't legally separated, the husband is presumed to be the father and would be responsible for support -- IF someone came after him for it.

Again, though, where necessary, this presumption is pretty easy to overcome in the year 2011. I don't think paternity of baby L is in question (at least, I haven't seen any indication that it is).

I posted a link to this on another thread. Deborah went through the State of Missouri to get child support.

If or when Deborah and Sean get divorced, Jeremy will have to be named as a third party in the divorce. There will be a count in the divorce petition specifically addressing the paternity of Lisa and naming Jeremy her bio father.

 

[TripleA]

I think that the state of the crib is a moot point, just like the shorts she was sleeping in. I think those bins and the tub were likely being stored under the crib, the police needed to inspect under there, so they stacked them inside the crib.

I think the mattress was lower than it looked because of the bumper height and even if it wasn't it is not likely that the baby fell out of the crib and died. Kids climb out of cribs all the time. Kids take a lot of falls and don't die. I just find it an unlikely scenario.

This seems to be what happens when we are starved for new information.

 

[Cappuccino]

OK, I see, thanks. I guess these situations (and the statute southern comfort posted, thanks!) are designed to address a situation where someone else claims to be the father of a child born during a marriage...and the married couple (or one of them?) doesn't want to recognize that. I dunno. I see that there is a presumption, I didn't know that. I think I'll just keep my mouth shut about matrimonial law from now on. It's not my field. My wife would slap me for pretending it is (and I would be required to agree that I deserved it ).

If your wife was here she might say something like this...the law makes certain presumptions - for example, innocent till proven guilty. That obviously doesn't mean its set in stone that a defendant is innocent, just that the burden of proof is on the prosecution. The paternity of a child born to a married woman follows the same principle - its presumed legally to be the husband's child unless and until evidence is offered to the contrary. If the mother puts someone else's name as father on the birth cert with no corresponding challenge from her husband, that is evidence to the contrary, and the default legal presumption is over turned.