My crazy theory...

[Tobiano8th]

interesting theory OP.

do you think JR would know this was the case?... as i've said numerous times, many professionals who worked on the case think JR's role only began with PR showing him the ransom note.

is the "dictionary" open to incest page in some of the books on the case? i only remember reading it here and i've read alot of books (some many years ago) on the case...... i am thinking a good defense lawyer would reduce that to "who cares...... it's meaningless. it shares the page with many other words"......... but of course combining many pieces of evidence is how P's and the jury function.

not really related to your theory, but do people think that BR could have done the whole crime? and if PR stumbled onto BR's wrongdoing, wouldn't she have awoken JR?

 

[fr brown]

interesting theory OP.

do you think JR would know this was the case?... as i've said numerous times, many professionals who worked on the case think JR's role only began with PR showing him the ransom note.

is the "dictionary" open to incest page in some of the books on the case? i only remember reading it here and i've read alot of books (some many years ago) on the case...... i am thinking a good defense lawyer would reduce that to "who cares...... it's meaningless. it shares the page with many other words"......... but of course combining many pieces of evidence is how P's and the jury function.

not really related to your theory, but do people think that BR could have done the whole crime? and if PR stumbled onto BR's wrongdoing, wouldn't she have awoken JR?

I don't know what "OP" means, but assuming this is addressed to me....

Bear with me while I start from first principles. I think that most posters go about this the wrong way around.

1. That Patsy wrote the ransom note is evidenced by handwriting and formatting of the note.
2. If at 6am Patsy and John had been in it together, they would have been dressed alike in support of their alibi, probably in pajamas. Instead, Patsy looked like she'd been up all night murdering someone. Patsy should have had time to take a shower and change her clothes, but something prevented this. Most likely John got up and got in the shower. (The police have other evidence corroborating John's story, I'm sure, but I don't know what it is.)
3. By 1 and 2, only one of them is responsible for everything up until 5:42am: that one is Patsy.

(I'm not including Burke because I don't see any evidence of his involvement. People, for some reason, want him to be guilty so they interpret everything to reinforce this notion. I find this rather sick, to tell you the truth.)

So Patsy is responsible for the murder, the note and all the staging. That means that the length of the note and the fact that the note is full of Ramsey inside baseball (such as John's penchant for talking in percentages, his bonus, the Atlanta Fat Cats, "John's" Bible, etc.) has to be explained with Patsy's authorship in mind. I talk about this on FFJ. I'm not going to go over it all here.

In her interviews Patsy goes out of her way to distance herself from the Bible with "SBTC" and the flashlight standing on the counter, while at the same time making a point of saying that John was the exclusive users of those two things. Obviously, she's throwing suspicion on him. If John was not involved (see 2), then the fibers in JonBenet's underwear were most likely put there by Patsy. She's framed him with premeditation.

At some point I came to feel that the ransom note is too complex to have been thrown together on the fly. Reluctantly, I concluded that Patsy'd been at least toying with the idea of doing this for some little time before December 25, 1996. But why would she?

JonBenet suffered from urinary tract infections (as Michael Kane brought out). JonBenet's vaginal opening was very different from that of other girls her age, according to Steve Thomas. Thomas suggests this was from rough wiping by Patsy. Also the early Vanity Fair article implied that John was a womanizer. Could Patsy have feared divorce? (She might have felt a lot of rage at John. Perhaps he had mixed feelings about her "recovery" and showed it.) JonBenet was a very articulate young girl. What happens when she tells Second Mommy what went on? Disgrace--at the very least--for Patsy.

So that's my grappling with the facts. Further speculation about what might have inspired Patsy, like Agatha Christie, is a relaxing intellectual exercise. I'm not invested in who did it. I'm not angry at any Ramsey.

In JonBenet Thomas says he used a magnifying glass to look at a photo of the dictionary with the page corner folded up to point to "incest." I'm assuming the book was open at the crime scene because I don't think the investigators went around opening every book looking for evidence of bookmarking. I did think "who cares" for years, but now I see it as part of Patsy's framing/staging. She really was an evil genius, in my view.

I think John started to catch on when, having told him that she found the note on the stairs, Patsy did not cop to French that she was the one who moved the note over to the patio door. John must have wondered what was up with that. In his report, French said he couldn't figure out which one of them had moved it from the stairs to the door. If it had been John, he would have said so. Why not, other than it's a stupid place to put a note to read it? In my view, the note was always on the floor by the door. Nobody except Patsy ever says he sees it anywhere else. She was probably hoping John would pick it up and get his fingerprints on it.

I think that at least by the time of Patsy's death, John had figured it all out. Psalm 34 is visible right opposite of "SBTC." I doubt if it's a coincidence that he says in TOSOS that he read Psalm 34 to her on her deathbed. A loving husband would have read "The Lord is my shepherd." Instead he read a psalm that promised her eternal damnation and erasure of her memory from the earth.

 

[wonderllama]

interesting theory OP.

do you think JR would know this was the case?... as i've said numerous times, many professionals who worked on the case think JR's role only began with PR showing him the ransom note.

is the "dictionary" open to incest page in some of the books on the case? i only remember reading it here and i've read alot of books (some many years ago) on the case...... i am thinking a good defense lawyer would reduce that to "who cares...... it's meaningless. it shares the page with many other words"......... but of course combining many pieces of evidence is how P's and the jury function.

not really related to your theory, but do people think that BR could have done the whole crime? and if PR stumbled onto BR's wrongdoing, wouldn't she have awoken JR?

I know you're addressing the Original Poster, but there's some good threads here on the whole BR did it. I recommend reading through those or even Chief Kolar's book. That's a really good read, much like all the other books people have mentioned, Steve Thomas etc.

The Burke theory is frustrating in that it kind of goes against all the original theories out there but makes sense too. This is the problem with this case, too many legit sounding options, mixed messages, red herrings and 24 years of GAHHH.

 

[wonderllama]

Here's the BR thread from 15 years ago...up to the 5th thread now.
I highly recommend reading through it all (when you have a spare couple of hours )

Was Burke involved?

 

[fr brown]

Kolar's case against Burke has three elements:

1. He smeared poop on his bathroom wall when he was six (I think).
2. There were "pajama bottoms thought to belong to Burke" in JonBenet's room that had feces smears in them.
3. There was a candy box with feces smeared on it in JonBenet's room.

No. 2 didn't make it into the TV program, I'm fairly sure. Probably because they were actually JonBenet's velveteen pants that were on the floor with skidmarks in them.

No. 3 is a weird thing. The investigator that Kolar is almost certainly citing as the source for the feces-smeared candy box said in an interview with a Fox station that she found JonBenet's box with a secret stash of candy to be "poignant." What she found "alarming" was that every pair of JonBenet's underwear were feces-stained. Do you think a sexual abuse expert would find a feces-smeared box of candy poignant? Doubtful.

In his AMA I asked Kolar about the "pajama bottoms" and the candy box. To my genuine surprise he knew almost nothing about them. He didn't know where the "pajama bottoms thought to belong to Burke" had been found. He didn't know if they had been collected. He didn't know if the candy box had been collected, but he didn't think so. It was, he said, "an odd comment by investigators." I took from this that he hadn't even bothered to locate either item in a crime scene photo. It seems he didn't bother to follow up with these "investigators." I suspect that it was just one investigator, Holly Smith, and Kolar's guilty of a spectacular misreading of something she wrote.

So what's the evidence against Burke? That he was up during the phone call and his parents lied about it? That he smiles at the wrong time? That he wouldn't say for sure it was pineapple?

Really, people.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I've thought that John knew it was Pasty after he read the ransom note and especially when the foreign kidnappers passed the time they said they would call. He said went to get the mail, but I think he went to see where Pasty had hid her.

According to Linda Arndt, John was acting different when he appeared again, and made that beeline to the basement to "find"her. John telling Melinda and her fiance that he found her at ten that morning.

From that point on John knew he needed to get them out of Boulder, and hire separate attorneys for him and Pasty.

Pasty said JonBenet would call out for someone to wipe her tush, so I don't have a problem with skid marks in her undies.

For some reason John wanted his golf bags out of that house. In a photo of the basement and there is a closet that has a jumble of golf clubs like they were thrown in every which way.

That blonde hair on the baseball bat found in the yard. Was that something Pasty planted out there to point to an intruder?

I think Pasty was having a hard time turning forty. She's had her breast implants redone and a chin job that summer.

According to Linda Hoffman Pugh, she said she wouldn't of been surprised if she came to work one day and Patsy and John were going to get a divorce. She also said Pasty was drinking lot more. She'd had two fights with JonBenet over what she wanted her to wear on the gingerbread house part on the twenty third.

I think Pasty was pissed about the bonus for some reason in some way. What if Pasty first learned of it at the Whites. John and Fleet talking about how good the year had been for them, and Pasty overheard?

 

[fr brown]

I've thought that John knew it was Pasty after he read the ransom note and especially when the foreign kidnappers passed the time they said they would call. He said went to get the mail, but I think he went to see where Pasty had hid her.

According to Linda Arndt, John was acting different when he appeared again, and made that beeline to the basement to "find"her. John telling Melinda and her fiance that he found her at ten that morning.

From that point on John knew he needed to get them out of Boulder, and hire separate attorneys for him and Pasty.

Pasty said JonBenet would call out for someone to wipe her tush, so I don't have a problem with skid marks in her undies.

For some reason John wanted his golf bags out of that house. In a photo of the basement and there is a closet that has a jumble of golf clubs like they were thrown in every which way.

That blonde hair on the baseball bat found in the yard. Was that something Pasty planted out there to point to an intruder?

I think Pasty was having a hard time turning forty. She's had her breast implants redone and a chin job that summer.

According to Linda Hoffman Pugh, she said she wouldn't of been surprised if she came to work one day and Patsy and John were going to get a divorce. She also said Pasty was drinking lot more. She'd had two fights with JonBenet over what she wanted her to wear on the gingerbread house part on the twenty third.

I think Pasty was pissed about the bonus for some reason in some way. What if Pasty first learned of it at the Whites. John and Fleet talking about how good the year had been for them, and Pasty overheard?

Patsy mentioned the OJ Simpson case in her first TV appearance, didn't she? Maybe she followed the case. Maybe John did too. There was rampant speculation that Simpson'd stashed something related to the crime in his golf bag.

Maybe John suspected Patsy had done the same. Maybe she did. Maybe John found something in the basement he wanted to hide. We'll probably never know.

I doubt a golf club was the murder weapon. There was a perfectly good wiped flashlight on the counter that fit the wound well. Why make a theory more elaborate than it needs to be?

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy mentioned the OJ Simpson case in her first TV appearance, didn't she? Maybe she followed the case. Maybe John did too. There was rampant speculation that Simpson'd stashed something related to the crime in his golf bag.

Maybe John suspected Patsy had done the same. Maybe she did. Maybe John found something in the basement he wanted to hide. We'll probably never know.

I doubt a golf club was the murder weapon. There was a perfectly good wiped flashlight on the counter that fit the wound well. Why make a theory more elaborate than it needs to be?

fr brown,

Why make a theory more elaborate than it needs to be?

To the neophyte a complex theory is a sign of planning and deliberation, i.e. a marker for credibility.

JonBenet's size-6 underwear, her pink pajama bottoms and the rest of the missing size-12's were more than likely in that golf bag?

.

 

[Tobiano8th]

why is where PR "found" the ransom note important? and the subsequent movement of the note?

i've never understood this. i understand if she's clearly lying then that is important. but i've never understood the need to lie about it (the finding and movement of note)

 

[fr brown]

why is where PR "found" the ransom note important? and the subsequent movement of the note?

i've never understood this. i understand if she's clearly lying then that is important. but i've never understood the need to lie about it (the finding and movement of note)

I can't say why Patsy said she found the note on the stairs if she didn't. Some have suggested she said it/put it there to implicate LHP.

What's for sure is that their stories were muddled and they never got them straight.

John never actually says he saw it on the stairs. Implies maybe but won't say it.

 

[kaykay543]

Interesting theory but I don't this is what happened. It always amazes me that people think JR wasn't the one that did this. Why does everyone always give him a pass?. IMO the most logical person is JR. Just because he was rich and educated doesn't mean he didn't molest JBR. Years ago I thought BR did it too. But the more I read and researched the more I became convinced that BR didn't do it. I do think BR knows what happened. But he will never talk. Sexual abuse affects the entire family. And the entire family is on keeping the "secret"

 

[Swirlz]

Probably because they were actually JonBenet's velveteen pants that were on the floor with skidmarks in them.

Do you know if the police questioned either John or Patsy about this?

 

[fr brown]

Do you know if the police questioned either John or Patsy about this?

Patsy was questioned about JonBenet's pants on the floor.

 

[fr brown]

Interesting theory but I don't this is what happened. It always amazes me that people think JR wasn't the one that did this. Why does everyone always give him a pass?. IMO the most logical person is JR. Just because he was rich and educated doesn't mean he didn't molest JBR. Years ago I thought BR did it too. But the more I read and researched the more I became convinced that BR didn't do it. I do think BR knows what happened. But he will never talk. Sexual abuse affects the entire family. And the entire family is on keeping the "secret"

Maybe because the police think he slept through the night?

 

[Swirlz]

Thanks. Do you know if she was asked about there being poop

 

[Swirlz]

Patsy was questioned about JonBenet's pants on the floor.

Thanks. Do you know if she was specifically asked about there being poop in them?

ETA: I'm trying to clarify Kolar's account of there having been a pair of boys feces-stained pajama bottoms on the floor.

 

[fr brown]

Thanks. Do you know if she was specifically asked about there being poop in them?

ETA: I'm trying to clarify Kolar's account of there having been a pair of boys feces-stained pajama bottoms on the floor.

Good luck. See if the "pajamas thought to belong to Burke" made it into the tv show. If they didn't, the fact checkers must have disallowed.

There's a discussion about "not wiping well" and staining over a crime scene photo. I read the transcripts on acandyrose. They're available to the public.

 

[Fabra]

Interesting theory but I don't this is what happened. It always amazes me that people think JR wasn't the one that did this. Why does everyone always give him a pass?. IMO the most logical person is JR. Just because he was rich and educated doesn't mean he didn't molest JBR. Years ago I thought BR did it too. But the more I read and researched the more I became convinced that BR didn't do it. I do think BR knows what happened. But he will never talk. Sexual abuse affects the entire family. And the entire family is on keeping the "secret"

When you have 2 children in a house that both exhibit signs of sexual abuse (we know JBR was abused well before the night of the 25th, and BR had indicators as discussed in the threads throughout), none of the adults in their lives should be ruled out. Children act out what they're experiencing. For that reason, it's possible that JBR was being molested by more than one person.

Unfortunately, we'll probably never know who the "prime mover" of abuse was, but I'd guess it started with an adult and trickled down.

And agreed, enablers are necessary to keeping the cycle going. They're just as culpable.

 

[UKGuy]

Do you know if the police questioned either John or Patsy about this?

Swirlz,
1997 BPD Patsy Interview, Excerpt

ST: is that right? And what was your goodnight routine with JonBenet in her room on the night of the 25th? Did, John was getting her down. Did you simply peak your head in or how long were you in the room with John.

PR: Oh, he just walked in and laid her in the bed and then I, I, he left . . .

ST: You took it from there?

PR: Right.

ST: And that consisted of simply getting her under the covers.

PR: Well, I changed her and took the black velvet pants off and found those, those long underwear pants and put on her.

ST: Okay. Turned off the light?

PR: Uh, the light in her bedroom was not on. I believe that bathroom light, we usually left the bathroom light on.

ST: As a nightlight?

PR: Or a nightlight. She had a little lamp in there. We either left that on or the bathroom light on in her room.

Everyone should note how Patsy refers to Burke's longjohns as long underwear how sneaky is that?

1998 BPD Patsy Interview, Excerpt

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow.

So we are year later and Patsy is still referring to Burke's longjohns as long underwear, note how Patsy glides over the pink little pajama bottoms which Patsy said she could not find, causing her to select Burke's longjohns as a substitute.

1998 BPD Patsy Interview, Excerpt

3 TRIP DEMUTH: Patsy, why the long underwear?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I remember I was digging

5 around for something. I was trying to find the pink

6 ones she wore the night before. I couldn't put my hand

7 on them right quick. And so I went to these drawers

8 looking for the pajamas, and she was just laying there,

9 so I didn't want to raise her up and get everything off

10 of her to put a long nightgown, so looking for pajamas

11 bottoms to put on her. I couldn't find any, and the

12 long underwear pants were in there drawer, so I got

13 those.

14 TRIP DEMUTH: Could you have left that drawer

15 open yourself?

1998 BPD Patsy Interview, Excerpt
Detective Tom Haney talking to Patsy about JonBenet's bathroom floor (looking at photos), e.g. 378

16 TOM HANEY: How about 378?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her

18 pants.

19 TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular

20 pants, when she would have worn those last?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably

22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the

23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.

24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.

25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

0457

1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It

2 appears they are stained.

3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

4 TOM HANEY: Is that something that JonBenet

5 had a problem with?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well she, you know, she was at

7 age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you

8 know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.

9 TOM HANEY: Did she have accidents, if you

10 will, in the course of the day or the night, as opposed

11 to just bed wetting?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not usually, no, huh-uh. That

13 would probably be more from just not wiping real well.

14 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know how long those

15 would have been in that position in 378 on the floor in

16 there?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: It depends when she wore them

18 last.

19 TOM HANEY: Again, do you recall?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

21 TOM HANEY: On Christmas day were you in that

22 bathroom at all?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Very likely, but I can't say

24 for sure.

25 TOM HANEY: Had you been in there that day,

0458

1 would you have done something with them?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I got, you know -- that

3 night I got -- I know I got the long Johns for her out

4 of that bathroom.

5 TOM HANEY: Right, out of one of the draws in

6 there.

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing those on the

9 floor that night when you got the --

10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I

13 don't know.

14 TOM HANEY: Could have.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.

16 Don't know for sure.

17 TOM HANEY: Is it possible that some point

18 during the night she would have gotten up and put those

19 on or thrown them down there or changed in some way;

20 trying to account for those being there.

21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine

22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out

23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she

24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.

25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

0459

1 can't remember. It might have been those. I just

2 can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know,

3 gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left

4 them there.

5 TOM HANEY: When she was out riding her bike,

6 do you remember, think back, look back at what she was

7 wearing.

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't remember. (Inaudible).

9 Envelope.

10 TOM HANEY: I don't know. But it is

11 obviously after these have been picked up and stretched

12 out for a photograph just -- it could be a

13 (inaudible). Evidence. And 380.

So the reason for the quotes is to demonstrate that the stained black pants being discussed above are different from the soiled pajama bottoms left lying on JonBenet's bedroom floor.

So for emphasis that is two separate pairs of fecally stained pants found in JonBenet's bedroom a pair on her bathroom floor and another on the bedroom floor.

Hopefully this disambiguates fr brown's post regarding pants/pajamas.

The black velvet pants which JonBenet wore to the White's party can be seen lying on the spare bed in the photo below.
From Lou Smit's Presentation Crime Scene Photo #005 JonBenet's Bedroom

.

 

[kaykay543]

Maybe because the police think he slept through the night?

I have never read anything saying the police think he slept through the night? Have you? Maybe I don't remember it. But there is evidence that shows he didn't sleep through the night. Such as his robe etc. IMO there is NO way he slept through it. JR was and is always in control of that family. BR would have never done the Dr Phil show without his dad telling him to. How else did he know where to "find" her? He knew where she was because he put her there. I think originally he was going to put her outside but PR probably couldn't take it. Especially with it so cold. I think that is why the ransom note was written the way it was. And then at the last minute they couldn't put her outside so hid her in the basement.