Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #3

[phenolred]

I looked thru these pics found with the serial killer here are the ones I think Could look like Jane Doe
#31 # 65 #70 #71

Any thoughts?
http://lacountymurders.com/wanted/Br...8-3100-444.pdf

 

[kygal]

I don't know about the air/oxygen test, but they also can do a test on bones that determine where they grew up/were from based on the water they drank. Apparently the minerals/chemicals in the water are different in different places and they can scan the bones to detect what levels are in it and link it to a certain place or area.

I've seen on here and Doe Network about them using water tests (especially near the Mexican border) to determine country of origin -- If they were international this might work.

 

[phenolred]

I just thought of something and I will have to go back to the old thread and see who posted about contacting the watch people.

They had asked these people about the serial number, etc, so I thought maybe we should look for a serial number that is very close to the one on John Does watch, I would think they would be in number sequence and maybe we could find someone who ownes a watch will a closley matching serial number and we can ask them where they bought it. It would make sense that they would send watches with serial numbers in sequence to the approximate same area.

Ok I found the info it was Marie

the serial number is H918803 So Im thinking look for Serial number H918804 H918802 etc as just see where they bought them because from watch the watch expert guy said was that most of the ones he has worked on have been ones that were originals kept in the family etc here is the info Marie posted


I'm afraid that the serial number contains no useful information. This is thanks to the lack of foresight on the part of Bulova when they trashed virtually everything associated with early Accutron watches.
I do keep very good records and a computer search for H918803 turned up nothing. It's my habit to add a dash and then the date code after the serial number on all of my invoices so I tried H918803-M8 but again, no luck. I would have been pleased to contribute to your search but unfortunately, I have nothing for you.


More about the watch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More from the gentleman I emailed about the watch:
The Accutron watch was a high tech instrument in its day. It had a connection to the space program and was very popular with young people. It was cool, and relatively expensive starting at $125. Most of the ones that I repair were originally gifts from parents, wives, or friends.
Bulova was a world class manufacturer at the time, with manufacturing facilities in New York and Switzerland. Components were made in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. The total number of watches made during the 17 years of production (1960 to 1977) has been variously put at anywhere between 17 and 24 million.
They were marketed everywhere and sold with a sizeable discount to GI's at military PX's all over the world.

Finally, when an old watch is opened to reveal the works, you can often find the initials and date of the various repairers who had worked on it scratched somewhere on the case or movement.

 

[XcomSquaddie]

It makes a lot of sense. However didn't LE say that the company did not maintain records from that long ago.

One idea might be to thoroughly interview the watch company about it's records storage practices from that time. There might be records locked away and forgotten somewhere.

Of course, that's a needle-haystack case evolving from another needle-haystack. But, what else can you do?

 

[Carmen29]

Hi all. I'm new to the site and stumbled upon this case which baffles me... so excuse me for not knowing it all as well as you.
I just cant believe that with todays modern technology and databases they cant find something on at least ONE of them. i also cant believe someone isnt looking for them. unless they gave up a long time ago or there is no one left in their family to look. (ex parents passed on, no siblings)

 

[Marie]

Hi Carmen. The sad fact is that many many young people are estranged from their families for many reasons - they come from abusive homes, they run away with boyfriends, the get into using drugs, etc. So many reasons. Yes, it's hard for many of us with close families to understand, but it does happen, and it happens a lot (especially during the era these two were found murdered). Families may look for them or wonder about them, but not to the extent of reporting them missing or of providing dna. Another sad fact is that someone may be reported missing - but only to the local agency, and that information is not passed on to a national database. The whole system, imho, is a sad mess and needs some serious organization.

Hi all. I'm new to the site and stumbled upon this case which baffles me... so excuse me for not knowing it all as well as you.
I just cant believe that with todays modern technology and databases they cant find something on at least ONE of them. i also cant believe someone isnt looking for them. unless they gave up a long time ago or there is no one left in their family to look. (ex parents passed on, no siblings)

 

[kline]

While records for missing people in the 70's were considerably more spotty then the 80's and 90's there are many documented on the Doe Network and Charley Project...its hard to beleive that neither one of these young people are listed ,but that seems to be the case as I know many people have tried to match them up.
Ive always felt the back story to this tragedy must be incredible.

 

[Marie]

I think the back story must be incredible as well. Like the 1979 case featured on AMW last Sat. The 16yo girl, Tammy Vincent, stabbed with an ice pick 44 times and set on fire and then shot in CA. Her partial dna didn't turn up anything in CA - but full dna turned up in CODIS. Turned out she had run away from home in 1978 and also had been a witness against a strip club/biker gang in Seattle AND she was under protection in a safe house when she went missing. You'd think that between her family and LE in WA looking for her that she would have been id'd a long time ago! Like I said, the system is a mess.

"Tammy was moved to a safe house in August of that year for her protection, but being a minor, she was transferred to a group home five hours outside of Seattle. She should have been safe there, but a lawyer working for the club owners tracked her down and convinced the group home to release Tammy to his care. Tragically, Tammy soon discovered that she was about to be handed over to the club owners that she was asked to testify against."

 

[Carmen29]

I thought about this this morning. I was thinking that if he was having problems with his father/family then they probably dont even think anything bad happened to him. they might just figure he left after a fight and then just decided to cut all ties.
Didnt the park manager say that they stopped on the way going to florida (?) and stopped again on the way back. so i would be focusing on them returning to an area up in the northeast or canada.
seems odd how they were shot the exact same way.

Hi Carmen. The sad fact is that many many young people are estranged from their families for many reasons - they come from abusive homes, they run away with boyfriends, the get into using drugs, etc. So many reasons. Yes, it's hard for many of us with close families to understand, but it does happen, and it happens a lot (especially during the era these two were found murdered). Families may look for them or wonder about them, but not to the extent of reporting them missing or of providing dna. Another sad fact is that someone may be reported missing - but only to the local agency, and that information is not passed on to a national database. The whole system, imho, is a sad mess and needs some serious organization.

 

[MaryLiz]

I thought about this this morning. I was thinking that if he was having problems with his father/family then they probably dont even think anything bad happened to him. they might just figure he left after a fight and then just decided to cut all ties.
Didnt the park manager say that they stopped on the way going to florida (?) and stopped again on the way back. so i would be focusing on them returning to an area up in the northeast or canada.
seems odd how they were shot the exact same way.

That's exactly what I have always thought about this case. One of the reasons John Doe's family may not be looking for him is because of the trouble between him and his father. The father (if he is still alive) may be very stubborn and STILL refuses to be the one to make the first move! He probably washed his hands of the matter and thought his son just left to start a new life somewhere. Very sad....

 

[phenolred]

Here is an email I sent to a friend recently and she was able to find an old newspaper article of people reported as missing in this flood

the list is very big and I think most of the people were located=, but there are some that were NEVER FOUND

I had another thought! I started looking for this going on around the time they were killed and I came across something.
It was The Big Thompson Canyon Flood it occured in Colorado July 31 1976 It was a HUGE natural Disater and over 100 confirmed dead and so far from what I have been reading 6 - 7 were NEVER found.
However, some accounts indicate they may never KNOW exacts numbers because there were thousands of tourist etc in the Canyon that night. Cars were reduced to rubble and one of the searchers said he kept finding naked people and then he realized the water had ripped their clothes from their bodies.
Something like 12 inches of raid fell in just a few hours and this disater happened, SO I THOUGHT MAYBE their families think they died in the FLOOD so that is why they are not looking for them. The timeframe is right.
Maybe they are presumed dead in this flood, if they were traveling around the US during this time. I am still looking for something that list the people that were never found.
There seems to be ALOT of information out there. Just gotta keep looking feel free to Join me !!!!
Here are a couple of links to the story
http://www.larimerco.com/5visitors/51004big_thompson.htm

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s688.htm

 

[MaryLiz]

Here is an email I sent to a friend recently and she was able to find an old newspaper article of people reported as missing in this flood

the list is very big and I think most of the people were located=, but there are some that were NEVER FOUND

I had another thought! I started looking for this going on around the time they were killed and I came across something.
It was The Big Thompson Canyon Flood it occured in Colorado July 31 1976 It was a HUGE natural Disater and over 100 confirmed dead and so far from what I have been reading 6 - 7 were NEVER found.
However, some accounts indicate they may never KNOW exacts numbers because there were thousands of tourist etc in the Canyon that night. Cars were reduced to rubble and one of the searchers said he kept finding naked people and then he realized the water had ripped their clothes from their bodies.
Something like 12 inches of raid fell in just a few hours and this disater happened, SO I THOUGHT MAYBE their families think they died in the FLOOD so that is why they are not looking for them. The timeframe is right.
Maybe they are presumed dead in this flood, if they were traveling around the US during this time. I am still looking for something that list the people that were never found.
There seems to be ALOT of information out there. Just gotta keep looking feel free to Join me !!!!
Here are a couple of links to the story
http://www.larimerco.com/5visitors/51004big_thompson.htm

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s688.htm

It's a possibility. Very sad to read that list and see entire families wiped out that day.

 

[phenolred]

Ok I can post this here now since I have given the tip to Verna and she said they will be investigating this....


I was working on the theory that John Doe was in the Drug Trade.
I thought maybe his ring was stolen or given to him in trade for drugs the watch too.

So, I went back to newspaper archives from the 70's and I came across a murder that took place in 1974 in Baltimore MD.

Then man was S. Charles Friedenberg. I found out the S stands for SAUL.

Anyway I found out that prior to the murder he left the house wearing a yellow gold Bulova Watch and a Sapphire Ring.

He was driving a 1973 Cadilac, it was missing along with all of his credit cards and the Watch and the Ring. They found the Car in New York.

3 people were convicted of his murder. He was the president of the Overbrook Egg nog Corp.

here are the 3, I know I looked on the Maryland DOC website and one of them is still listed as being in prison there

Michel Leon McCree
Robert Lavern Dixon
John Junior Garris

https://www.fastcase.com/Google/Start.aspx?C=7726f311748ee484e6f051c6870093217cf8cb862d645f30&D=3fc7d00246d6de8385b643bd1e9daab716dc117c9b0a6e51

 

[Marie]

I'm curious, why can't you post about something like this before you tell Verna?

It'd be nice if they find out the sapphire ring was actually a lindestar and that it has the same initials, but Saul Charles Friedenberg or SCF or SFC don't match. Still something very worth checking out, and considering the ring and watch we really don't have much more to go on other than JD may have been wealthy or came from wealth, or stole them, or he got them at a pawn shop or he traded something for them.

Thinking 'outside the box' is certainly what this case needs.

Then man was S. Charles Friedenberg. I found out the S stands for SAUL.

Anyway I found out that prior to the murder he left the house wearing a yellow gold Bulova Watch and a Sapphire Ring.

He was driving a 1973 Cadilac, it was missing along with all of his credit cards and the Watch and the Ring. They found the Car in New York.

 

[Marie]

I found two names. Various reports list 4 to 7 bodies still missing - of those known to have been in the Canyon. Many other people could have been there camping or stopped for the night... very sad.

GRAHAM, Teresa, age 9; Greeley, Colorado (never located - grandmother, mother, 2yo sister all found deceased)

MCCARTY, George W., Jr., 20, Newport, Rhode Island (never located - girlfriend CAMPBELL, Elaine PFC, 20, Ft. Carson, CO found deceased)

Here is an email I sent to a friend recently and she was able to find an old newspaper article of people reported as missing in this flood

the list is very big and I think most of the people were located=, but there are some that were NEVER FOUND

I had another thought! I started looking for this going on around the time they were killed and I came across something.
It was The Big Thompson Canyon Flood it occured in Colorado July 31 1976 It was a HUGE natural Disater and over 100 confirmed dead and so far from what I have been reading 6 - 7 were NEVER found.
However, some accounts indicate they may never KNOW exacts numbers because there were thousands of tourist etc in the Canyon that night. Cars were reduced to rubble and one of the searchers said he kept finding naked people and then he realized the water had ripped their clothes from their bodies.
Something like 12 inches of raid fell in just a few hours and this disater happened, SO I THOUGHT MAYBE their families think they died in the FLOOD so that is why they are not looking for them. The timeframe is right.
Maybe they are presumed dead in this flood, if they were traveling around the US during this time. I am still looking for something that list the people that were never found.
There seems to be ALOT of information out there. Just gotta keep looking feel free to Join me !!!!
Here are a couple of links to the story
http://www.larimerco.com/5visitors/51004big_thompson.htm

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s688.htm

 

[phenolred]

Yeah I was thinking maybe their families thought they died in this flood.

Since these 2 were apparently travelling about the country.

 

[phenolred]

Well I guess I could have But I have kind of built up a kinda friendship with her and wanted to let her know about it

and plus too I wanted to be able to tell you guys if they were gonna check it out...

Not really that I COULDNT post it here first

I also sent it to the Baltimore PD to see if they still have records on the murder.

Records detailing the watch and the ring, and Verna said their investigator, was going to check this out....

I wish we could see the entire article it may go into more detail about the watch and ring. It was an appeal filed on the murders

There is also a Friedenberg that is a dentist in Baltimore that was also practicing back in the 70's wonder if he is related to S charles?

His family might know more about the ring

I'm curious, why can't you post about something like this before you tell Verna?

It'd be nice if they find out the sapphire ring was actually a lindestar and that it has the same initials, but Saul Charles Friedenberg or SCF or SFC don't match. Still something very worth checking out, and considering the ring and watch we really don't have much more to go on other than JD may have been wealthy or came from wealth, or stole them, or he got them at a pawn shop or he traded something for them.

Thinking 'outside the box' is certainly what this case needs.

 

[Teresa Larson]

I'm curious, why can't you post about something like this before you tell Verna?

It'd be nice if they find out the sapphire ring was actually a lindestar and that it has the same initials, but Saul Charles Friedenberg or SCF or SFC don't match. Still something very worth checking out, and considering the ring and watch we really don't have much more to go on other than JD may have been wealthy or came from wealth, or stole them, or he got them at a pawn shop or he traded something for them.

Thinking 'outside the box' is certainly what this case needs.[/quote

It was not a sapphire ring it was a star sapphire - Lindestar ring It was a cheap ring A lot of people had them back then. I even had one myself. There is a picture of the ring in the thread some place. The serial number on the watch was no help either because the company does not have any records of it. That wasn't an expensive watch either so I highly doubt they were traded for drugs etc. I still believe the guy that had possession of the gun that was used to kill them had something to do with their deaths or knows who did it. The police should have investigated him more intensely.

 

[Fairy1]

This case is so disturbing. These beautiful kids could have come from anywhere. It's hard to believe so much time has gone by and no one has claimed them. Makes my heart break.

 

[superunknown]

I think it is wise to be very very cautious about naming names of other victims of crimes and/or their families. This site is wide open and has a lot of lurkers. It would be a shame if someone just took it upon themselves to contact the surviving family members of the murder victim in Maryland and by posting that info here, that opens up that possibility... not good IMO