Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #6

[Laughing]

Musicaljoke, I'd start with the RCMP, and maybe the South Carolina State medical examiner's office.

Some of the actions of local LE over the years of this case are kind of odd.

 

[carbuff]

https://www.services.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/missing-disparus/case-dossier.jsf?case=2014003890&id=15

Has anyone taken a look at Guy Carignan? He looks to me a lot like Jacques Doe. He left Quebec in 1973 to travel with a friend to Vancouver, but neither he, nor the friend ever arrived there. I'll see if I can find out more about his friend.

Edited to add ... I found the friend who went missing with him. Lucie Gelinas. Lucie was 5'5", 100 pounds, had green eyes, and shoulder length brown hair.

https://www.services.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/missing-disparus/case-dossier.jsf?case=2015050297&id=7

Uh. Yeah. I think so. She's a little hard to tell because of the odd angle of her head and eyes, but there is a strong resemblance, isn't there?

 

[STANDREID]

Looks pretty close. Was Jacques Doe wearing contact lenses?

 

[carbuff]

Looks pretty close. Was Jacques Doe wearing contact lenses?

Could have just lost his glasses somewhere in being dragged to where the bodies were found.

 

[CeCeMoore]

They do look very close, but Guy was only 5'9" and Jacques was estimated to be 6'1/4". Also, Guy had a red birthmark on his chest and and no noted surgeries, while Jacques had no noted birthmarks and had an appendectomy scar.

Lucie had had liver surgery and had a scar and this Jane Doe had no noted surgery scars.

 

[Canadian4]

Guy Carignan had a red birthmark on his chest. I don't think Jacques had one.

Sorry CeCe didn't see your comment.

 

[Laughing]

Birthmark & scars, hhhmmm.

JMHO we've noticed gaps in protocol in the investigation of this case, perhaps these weren't noted or weren't released.

 

[musicaljoke]

Birthmark & scars, hhhmmm.

JMHO we've noticed gaps in protocol in the investigation of this case, perhaps these weren't noted or weren't released.

Yes, and it depends upon where the birthmark was, and whether or not the injuries masked the birthmark. We've seen other cases where information is missing, or simply wrong. In this case, is it possible that the abdominal scar was documented on the wrong body, or that at some point since 1976 the file was reformatted and an error made? Could the potential match have been eliminated in the past because of this? Although, surely there is a significant difference between a liver surgery scar and an appendix scar.

Perhaps it's a stretch to think that this could be a match, but I think that it's worthy of consideration. If the SC couple is the missing Canadians, then there will be significant challenges to getting this verified, namely language, and jurisdiction.

ETA- The RCMP have responded to say they've forwarded the information.

 

[carbuff]

Birthmark & scars, hhhmmm.

JMHO we've noticed gaps in protocol in the investigation of this case, perhaps these weren't noted or weren't released.

It's very common for items to be withheld either deliberately (so as not to harm a case, or for weeding out false leads) or by accident (incompetence, misread report, mis-typed, not noticed, etc.) So unless it specifically says no scars or whatever, I take it as unknown information. Three-value logic: yes, no, or not known.

 

[Swamp Fox Trot]

They do look very close, but Guy was only 5'9" and Jacques was estimated to be 6'1/4". Also, Guy had a red birthmark on his chest and and no noted surgeries, while Jacques had no noted birthmarks and had an appendectomy scar.

Lucie had had liver surgery and had a scar and this Jane Doe had no noted surgery scars.

Who said Jacques Doe had an appendectemy scar?

 

[CeCeMoore]

Who said Jacques Doe had an appendectemy scar?

Post #2, transcribed from the Doe Network listing. (Copying since the link is dead).

Vital Statistics
Estimated age: 18 - 22 years old but possibly older.
Approximate Height and Weight: 6'1/4"; 150 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Brown eyes; brown hair. Two 2-inch scars on his right shoulder area. 4" appendectomy scar. Tall and athletic looking. Although both the woman and man were white, investigators described their skin as smooth, with olive undertones.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I remember this case from a detective magazine in the 70's. I read some of the thread and maybe this has been mentioned before. They had said the man had had a very expensive dental procedure that was usually done overseas. I remember this well because they called the procedure by name and said it was so dangerous they literally worked between heartbeats. I've checked through the years to find out if it was solved. Load of hooey? Who knows?

That sounds unlikely to me, but then I'm not a dentist. According to this chap's basic details in his Vital Stats thread:

Dentals: Available. Extensive dental work. Very elaborate dental work with crowns and bridges. Crown on left front tooth, acrylic or porcelain. Fillings in most of upper teeth and has some missing teeth in top and bottom but noticeable in top back left. He is missing his wisdom teeth on the bottom in the back.

and

A forensic dentist in Spartanburg charted the young man’s mouth and the American Dental Association published his findings, hoping a dentist somewhere would recognize the work. The dead man had undergone extensive dental work, including fillings, root canals and crowns. No dentist ever came forward.

Nothing out of the ordinary there (except in terms of the quantity of work done), and I would expect a forensic dentist to have commented on something as unusual as you mention.

 

[musicaljoke]

That's a lot of dental work for such a young man. Was he a hockey player, perhaps?

 

[Laughing]

That's a lot of dental work for such a young man. Was he a hockey player, perhaps?

I wondered that as well, but an automobile or motorcycle accident could have caused the damage as well.

 

[Alleykins]

Well, if he were from Canada, it could be hockey. One of my former coworkers (who grew up in Canada) took a stick to the mouth when he was 18 and it knocked out all of his top incisors. I submitted someone for this JD a long time ago but never heard back. Trying to get the RCMP's attention is like pulling teeth.

 

[Alleykins]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1956dmsk.html
This is the potential match I submitted to the RCMP.
Gary Percival
It's possible he was in NY in 1974

 

[carbuff]

Gary has a definite facial resemblance.


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[MelmothTheLost]

That's a lot of dental work for such a young man.

This is something of a paradox. There is a suggestion that the couple may have come from a wealthy background, and indeed the dental treatment this chap had must have been fairly expensive. On the other hand, in my experience people from a wealthy background have good dental care and look after their teeth from being very young and therefore tend to have very little serious dental work done in later life. The profile to me suggests someone who grew up poor or in deprived circumstances but who later had access to sophisticated and expensive dentistry.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I wondered that as well, but an automobile or motorcycle accident could have caused the damage as well.

If all the damage and treatment was to the front teeth I would agree that sporting or accident injuries are a possible explanation but fillings in most of his upper teeth and significant work on the back teeth sounds like neglect in childhood to me. Root fillings and crowns could be the rescue of a tooth damaged by trauma, or the last stage of saving a tooth that has had extensive decay and repeated fillings.

 

[Alleykins]

I wish I had become a forensic odontologist. That's another profession I discovered well after college.