MythBuster Thread Discussion Area

[carrie]

I would like to debate this post on the myth buster thread.

According to the link provided, the substance on the paper towels was full of maggots and attracting flies. The fatty acid ratios of the substance were also consistent with the composition of pig or human decomposition.

Maggots don't live & thrive on soap, makeup and other similar compounds. If soap attracted flies people would stop taking baths.

I think the maggots take away the possibility of the substance being soap or makeup and that that part of this myth buster should be taken out.

I also think that the "fatty ratios of the substance are consistent with pig or human decompostion" needs to be added.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/jazlynsmum1/papertowelanalyis.png

I agree that it needs at the very least to be reworded. While we may not have proof yet that it is Caylee's decomp, I think it's pretty safe to say that it is, in fact, decomp, and not soap, make up, etc., as the poster states. What do others think? Opinions anyone? AZ? Devon, where are you?

 

[tweety933]

The way I am reading the evidence released so far, the Q-100 piece of duct tape may be the piece of tape that had the heart residue on it, I find it hard to believe that the FBI wouldn't have put that information in a written report concerning items Q62-64, while they were analyzing them for "parts of a sticker".

Not that it would make any difference if the heart sticker residue was NOT found on her face tape(Q62-64) but instead, the other tape (Q-100) that was from the same source (aka Henkle). It would be more depraved to be found attached to the tape on her mouth, IMO, but either way.....the actual heart sticker found being linked to the stickers found at the house would go further to explain WHERE it was Caylee became deceased.

 

[MissJames]

The way I am reading the evidence released so far, the Q-100 piece of duct tape may be the piece of tape that had the heart residue on it, I find it hard to believe that the FBI wouldn't have put that information in a written report concerning items Q62-64, while they were analyzing them for "parts of a sticker".

Not that it would make any difference if the heart sticker residue was NOT found on her face tape(Q62-64) but instead, the other tape (Q-100) that was from the same source (aka Henkle). It would be more depraved to be found attached to the tape on her mouth, IMO, but either way.....the actual heart sticker found being linked to the stickers found at the house would go [/B]further to explain WHERE it was Caylee became deceased.

BBM
That's what I think also. Especially since she was wrapped in a blanket from her bed.My theory is that she was originally just in the blanket,but after decomp leaked in the car she was put into the bags.
Both the stickers and the blanket were from the home[bedroom].That's most likely where she was killed IMO

 

[tweety933]

BBM
That's what I think also. Especially since she was wrapped in a blanket from her bed.My theory is that she was originally just in the blanket,but after decomp leaked in the car she was put into the bags.

Is that the Q-110 blanket? Have we seen any reports on if IT was tested for comparison to the bedding taken from the Anthony home?

Didn't DC use his little probe to lift some sort of blanket up when he was searching that area? Is the Q-110 blanket the Winnie the pooh blanket, or I'm I confusing myself? LOL

If DC did not touch a blanket while searching, that is a MYTH to bust in itself.

 

[Tuffy]

I agree that it needs at the very least to be reworded. While we may not have proof yet that it is Caylee's decomp, I think it's pretty safe to say that it is, in fact, decomp, and not soap, make up, etc., as the poster states. What do others think? Opinions anyone? AZ? Devon, where are you?

My opinion is that the report states that the components and ratios are "quite consistent" with decomp, and does not mention soap or make-up. Most of the positive lab reports read "consistent with" as a positive result. I think the term "quite consistent" says it is most likely decomp.

Does that make sense?

 

[carrie]

The way I am reading the evidence released so far, the Q-100 piece of duct tape may be the piece of tape that had the heart residue on it, I find it hard to believe that the FBI wouldn't have put that information in a written report concerning items Q62-64, while they were analyzing them for "parts of a sticker".

Not that it would make any difference if the heart sticker residue was NOT found on her face tape(Q62-64) but instead, the other tape (Q-100) that was from the same source (aka Henkle). It would be more depraved to be found attached to the tape on her mouth, IMO, but either way.....the actual heart sticker found being linked to the stickers found at the house would go further to explain WHERE it was Caylee became deceased.

Well Tweety I have to say I disagree with you completely. Respectfully and good-naturedly of course. :winko: I'm positive the residue means the sticker was on the tape over Caylee's face/mouth and that residue in the reports is different from fragments of stickers.

However, I'm no expert at reading FBI reports. Perhaps some others could weigh in on this and help us out. Anybody have something to add that might help us out here? TIA

 

[carrie]

BBM
That's what I think also. Especially since she was wrapped in a blanket from her bed.My theory is that she was originally just in the blanket,but after decomp leaked in the car she was put into the bags.
Both the stickers and the blanket were from the home[bedroom].That's most likely where she was killed IMO

Is that the Q-110 blanket? Have we seen any reports on if IT was tested for comparison to the bedding taken from the Anthony home?

Didn't DC use his little probe to lift some sort of blanket up when he was searching that area? Is the Q-110 blanket the Winnie the pooh blanket, or I'm I confusing myself? LOL

If DC did not touch a blanket while searching, that is a MYTH to bust in itself.

Not saying the duct tape was or wasn't from the house according to the report. (It will probably be proven to be from the house.)

The report is very clear that there was a heart shaped residue on the duct tape from Caylee's face/mouth, along with a matching heart sticker in/near/beside the remains.. That obviously means there was a heart sticker on the duct tape over her mouth. The fact that they didn't find sticker fragments does not contradict this.

 

[carrie]

My opinion is that the report states that the components and ratios are "quite consistent" with decomp, and does not mention soap or make-up. Most of the positive lab reports read "consistent with" as a positive result. I think the term "quite consistent" says it is most likely decomp.

Does that make sense?

It does to me.

 

[AZlawyer]

Not saying the duct tape was or wasn't from the house according to the report. (It will probably be proven to be from the house.)

The report is very clear that there was a heart shaped residue on the duct tape from Caylee's face/mouth, along with a matching heart sticker in/near/beside the remains.. That obviously means there was a heart sticker on the duct tape over her mouth. The fact that they didn't find sticker fragments does not contradict this.

Just to complicate things, it is pretty clear that the sticker found near the remains was NOT the one that was originally on the duct tape, as that sticker was stuck to a piece of cardboard matting when it was found (and is also the puffy, semi-rigid kind of sticker that doesn't stick to rounded surfaces too well). But there was a sticker BACKING that was carefully cut out all pretty and found in a "Caylee" box in Casey's closet that was about the same size. There is lots of discussion about this on a thread called "heart sticker and duct tape" or something like that.

 

[AZlawyer]

I agree that it needs at the very least to be reworded. While we may not have proof yet that it is Caylee's decomp, I think it's pretty safe to say that it is, in fact, decomp, and not soap, make up, etc., as the poster states. What do others think? Opinions anyone? AZ? Devon, where are you?

I think the report means it was very likely adipocere and not some other kind of fat product. However, based on my research adipocere has never been known to form in less than 3 weeks, even in the "most favorable" conditions (i.e., drowning victim in cold moist climate)...and by my count Caylee's body could only have been in the trunk a maximum of 9 days...

 

[DotsEyes]

Interesting about the adipocere. It forms on the fatty parts of bodies, in an anerobic (sp) conditon, in cold, humid places. Not in warm places. It begins to form 3 to 4 weeks after death.

Does this mean what I think it means?

For adipocere to be in the trunk, the baby would have been in the trunk 21-28 days after death and stored until then in a cold, humid place.

Adipocere could not form in KC's car trunk from leakage - it would be entirely too hot.


Well, now. Interesting. Thank you posters.

 

[Tuffy]

Interesting about the adipocere. It forms on the fatty parts of bodies, in an anerobic (sp) conditon, in cold, humid places. Not in warm places. It begins to form 3 to 4 weeks after death.

Does this mean what I think it means?

For adipocere to be in the trunk, the baby would have been in the trunk 21-28 days after death and stored until then in a cold, humid place.

Adipocere could not form in KC's car trunk from leakage - it would be entirely too hot.


Well, now. Interesting. Thank you posters.

If adipocere is the substance on the paper towels, our assumed timeline may be off, or adipocere formed more quickly in this case. Here is some info I found online:

Although decomposition of fatty tissues starts almost immediately after death, adipocere formation time may vary from two weeks to one or two months, on average, due to several factors, such as temperature, embalming and burial conditions, and materials surrounding the corpse. For instance, the subcutaneous adipose (fatty) tissue of corpses immersed in cold water or kept in plastic bags may undergo a uniform adipocere formation with the superficial layers of skin slipping off.


"Adipocere." World of Forensic Science. Ed. K. Lee Lerner and Brenda Wilmoth Lerner. Gale Cengage, 2006. eNotes.com. 2006. 30 Jul, 2009 <http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/
adipocere>

 

[Tuffy]

Here is another bit of info from another source:

Adipocere has generally been considered to result from bacterial action, commonly in warm, damp, anaerobic environments. However, its frequency, rate of formation, factors affecting its formation and physical characteristics are not well defined.

Author Mellen PFM, Lowry MAand Micozzi MS, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Washington DC, USA

Biblio Journal of Forensic Sciences 1993: 38: 91

 

[MissJames]

Interesting about the adipocere. It forms on the fatty parts of bodies, in an anerobic (sp) conditon, in cold, humid places. Not in warm places. It begins to form 3 to 4 weeks after death.

Does this mean what I think it means?

For adipocere to be in the trunk, the baby would have been in the trunk 21-28 days after death and stored until then in a cold, humid place.

Adipocere could not form in KC's car trunk from leakage - it would be entirely too hot.


Well, now. Interesting. Thank you posters.

Could the decomp leakage left in the trunk form the adipocere? I am clueless.

 

[Tuffy]

Could the decomp leakage left in the trunk form the adipocere? I am clueless.

I have been reading a bit on adipocere, and so far from what I have read, it is most commonly formed in anaerobic (without oxygen) conditions. The body is either buried or submerged in water, or basically contained. It forms quicker in warm moist environments.

I would imagine that adipocere could form from fatty tissue that separated from the body, but I haven't read anything conclusive of that yet.

 

[lin]

FWIW - no expert on decomp or adipocere but was looking at the mythbusters thread and had to come here to see what was being discussed. The report cited to "bust" the "myth" is very clear that it is consistent with human or pig decomposition and doesn't list any other possibilities. One should assume this is because of the different chemical signatures.

The poster that alleges this myth to be busted, in fact, imo, actually proves the opposite of their understanding of the report. Pig or human. If there were other substances that were consistent, surely they'd have been listed. The other substances suggested by the poster are processed. I'm confident they would be very different than a decompositional event of a nonprocessed pig or human.

Finally, I don't understand the ins and outs of the study and the ramifications of the appearance of an adipocere like substance prior to the normal time it takes to form but want to throw this out as a thought: Is it possible that the reason it wasn't conclusively identified as adipocere from a human source is because it was too early in the development?

 

[lin]

You can use this to discuss what you are going to put up in Mythbusters and why. each item most likely has a thread where people are discussing already and this thread is way to broad for discussion. So if you want to put a mythbuster on the thread, need help ot want to bounce it off others, we can do that here. You can also challenge any item listed on the mythbuster thread here.

Things are either confirmed or denied. If you want to put it in the mythbuster thread please add a link to the docs or other solid information.

I suggest this be a rule rather than an option. Anyone else agree?

 

[Jolynna]

Adipocere forms faster in infants and in environments such as underwater or in a sealed tomb. A sealed bag in a car trunk would be oxygen deprived, much like a sealed tomb where the evaporation of body water is prevented. Parts of a dead body decay at different ways and at different rates.

Children decompose faster.Unembalmed bodies become especially ripe and putrid in sealed closed caskets.


http://media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/65/04700127/0470012765.pdf

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...+body+decay+children&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...+body+decay+children&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...l+adipocere+infants&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Adipocere

 

[JBean]

I suggest this be a rule rather than an option. Anyone else agree?

Hi Lin. Not sure what you mean, but it is the rule and always has been. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

 

[Jolynna]

I have been reading a bit on adipocere, and so far from what I have read, it is most commonly formed in anaerobic (without oxygen) conditions. The body is either buried or submerged in water, or basically contained. It forms quicker in warm moist environments.

I would imagine that adipocere could form from fatty tissue that separated from the body, but I haven't read anything conclusive of that yet.

bbm

That is my understanding from what I have read, too. Buried refers to being entombed or put in a sealed casket.

Caylee was in two sealed (with duct tape) trash bags which were in a lined canvas bag. All of those were in a locked trunk. Clothes accelerate decay. Caylee's lower face was sealed beneath 3 layers of duct tape.

Bodies do not always decompose uniformly or in the same way. A corpse might be partially skeletonized, partially mummified, and partially converted to adipocere. http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...+body+in+a+trash+bag&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us