• #36,221
The odd behavior of the front porch intruder can be explained by assuming that a change had to be made to the kidnapper’s original plan to exit the house by the same path used to enter the house; namely, by the back door. The following paragraphs explain this further.

The first figure shows the first frame of video from the front door camera that shows the intruder approaching the front porch. Notice that the intruder is stepping onto the front walk from a position to the left, and not from the right or from straight ahead. Therefore, it is unlikely that he came up the front walk steps where the hand rail is located. So, where could he be coming from?
View attachment 647008
The answer can be found by looking at the second figure, which shows an aerial view of the front of the house.
View attachment 647010
This view shows the intruder’s position with a red rectangle. It is immediately in front of a white circular stepping stone that can be seen in both the door camera video and the aerial view of the house. Now, this position is approached most easily by a clear path to the corner of the house as shown by the red dots in the aerial view. It is unlikely that the intruder entered this bath from any point short of the corner of the house because he would have had to climb over a two-foot high pile of rocks to reach the path as shown in the third figure – something not impossible, but a hassle that one would have preferred to avoid especially at night.
View attachment 647011
Therefore, it appears that the intruder came to the front door from a point beyond the corner of the house. This point was most likely the point of entry into the house, which we are told by authorities was the door to the back porch. If this is the case, then most likely the intruder came from inside the house before he approached the front door.

Now, let’s assume that that the original plan was to for the kidnapper(s) to exit the house by walking out the back door with their victim walking beside them to their vehicle located somewhere down the street. This would have been their safest option to avoid other cameras. And parking the vehicle on the street would have made it easier for a fast getaway than parking in the driveway, where they could have been blocked in. Unfortunately, while they were inside the house it became apparent to them that it was impossible for Nancy to walk to the vehicle where it was, either because Nancy told them she couldn’t walk that far or because they could see for themselves that she couldn’t walk that far (they could have spotted the walker she used inside the house). Therefore, they were forced to make a change in their exit plan and to bring the vehicle closer to the house so Nancy wouldn’t have to walk as far. The front door was decided to be the best option for doing this.

Therefore, while one of the kidnappers remained with Nancy to ensure that she didn’t call the police, the other kidnapper exited out the back door to get the vehicle. While on his way to get the vehicle, he remembered that there was a front door camera that could see the vehicle approach the front of the house, watch them enter the vehicle, and make their getaway. He knew this camera existed because of his reconnaissance of the house a few weeks earlier, when he was spotted unknowingly by the front door camera. Therefore, he had to either cover up the camera or remove it entirely before bringing the vehicle to the house. So, he went directly from the back porch to the front porch to disable the camera.

One can see on the camera video that he knew the camera existed because he held his head down while approaching the camera from the side. When he was unable to remove camera easily, he decided to temporarily cover it up with something so that it could not see the vehicle, assuming he could find a tool later in the vehicle or in the house that would help him remove the camera while they were exiting through the front door. So, he decided to use some nearby vegetation to disable the camera. While covering it with vegetation appears to most people to be a sign of gross incompetence, it actually served his purpose quite well because the camera was unable to see him later bring the vehicle to the front steps, get out, and approach the camera once more to remove it, either by approaching it from outside the house or from the inside. Then, after the camera was removed, no one could see them take Nancy down the front walk, put her in the vehicle, and then leave in the vehicle. And we know that they exited this way because of the blood on the front porch that wasn’t there when the intruder approached the camera the first time.

So this change of exit plan explains the following:

1) The front door video occurs while leaving the house and not while entering the house.
a. The intruder at the front door was inside the house prior to going to the front door and was likely the driver of the vehicle.
b. This explains the full backpack used by the intruder at the front door. It contains objects taken from inside or outside the house like possibly cameras, and other objects of value, and not just tools for entering the house.
c. It explains why covering the camera with vegetation was an effective action and not a sign of gross incompetence.

2) The intruder on the video at the front door likely had an accomplice.
a. Someone had to guarantee that Nancy would not call the police while the intruder was at the front door.
b. Someone had to guarantee that Nancy would not call the police while someone else disabled cameras and flood lights before exiting the house, which could have caused sounds that Nancy might have heard. (Nancy was hard of hearing and used hearing aids, but the kidnappers likely did not know this ahead of time).
c. The intruder appears to not have full use of his right hand, right elbow, and right leg, making it difficult for him to climb to the roof to remove cameras.
d. If the intruder did not have an accomplice, then he had to ensure that Nancy could not call the police while he was absent by tying her up with tape or cord. But it still would have been risky to leave her alone.

3) Change of exit plan does not depend upon how Nancy entered her house prior to her kidnapping.

4) Change of exit plan does not depend upon how the kidnappers entered the house.
a. Either Nancy left the back door unlocked, or
b. Someone else had left the back door unlocked, or
c. The kidnappers picked the lock on the back door. (There was no forced entry).
d. The kidnappers could have entered the house via a sliding door to the bedroom. In this case they would have still planned to exit via the back door because exiting via the sliding door would have required the victim to climb over a low brick wall. The rear porch did not have a sliding door.

5) The camera removed by the FBI from the roof of the guest house would have seen all entry and exit movements by any intruders via the back door. This camera was overlooked by the kidnappers because it was not on the roof of the main house. At this time only the FBI knows how much of this video data was stored within this camera, stored onsite in the house, or transmitted to the cloud. Perhaps some data was stored. Perhaps none was stored.
Great post. I have a lot of questions, but the one that comes to mind is if NG was tied up or already deceased, then I can't see the need for a second person. IF either were so, blood drops could still be on the porch. Is there any reason it could absolutely NOT be done by a single person?

BTW, I believe there were at least 2 if not 3 involved, but just looking at all possibilities.

The other main thing I still wonder, since we have just a tiny bit of video, is if Lantana man actually originally came from a different direction (say the other side of the house where he might have gone over the half wall and gotten in there, but could not get NG out that way), then crossed over to the side we see him coming from. Like he was looking for another exit and finding nothing convenient, found the front door best.
 
  • #36,222
It was my deranged, delusional, unhinged SG stalker. It's the only thing that fits! Payoff was getting the attention OF SG! Mom was his trophy. He may have gathered some family mementos from inside the house. However, his primary purpose was not burglary. It isn't a burglary gone wrong per NANOS. IMO it is an abduction gone right! MOO JMO
CONTROL
 
  • #36,223
If it was targeted against the family or a specific member by anyone else, I truly don't understand what the payoff was supposed to be.

Revenge. Thrill. Attention.

I don't think that's necessarily what happened here though. I think whomever did this could've been so obsessed by being digitally anonymous for the ransom demand and not leaving any identifiable evidence at the crime scene that he forgot to focus on the fundamentals of the crime itself - 1. Maintain the hostage 2. Get paid.

JMO.
 
  • #36,224
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Maybe it was a staged kidnapping to cover up.a murder like another famous case. My opinion only
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #36,225
LE has stated this is not a burglary gone wrong. It's amazing to me that people accept what LE has said and links are posted for sources but when they say something that goes against someone's personal narrative, what LE has said has no merit. Not personal to you bigcityaccountant AT ALL, I like your posts but LE (NANOS) said it was a targeted kidnapping. NOT a burglary gone wrong. This came out this week. We have no idea if she even had a safe. Maybe she fell and fainted. Maybe the perp stopped long enough to make a ham sandwich for the road! He may have knocked her out, drugged her, then tied her up and while disabled, taken her away in a space ship. WE KNOW NOTHING, really! We can go by what has been stated and even that may be said by LE in an effort to keep the perp confused. It's all about motive, imo. MOO
I’m confused, I thought a media source said LE believed this was a burglary gone wrong, but Nanos came out and said they didn’t say this. I took his comment as they have no confirmation that’s this was a burglary gone wrong, not that he entirely ruled it out. Again, just my interpretation of what was said.
 
  • #36,226
Maybe it was a staged kidnapping to cover up.a murder like another famous case. My opinion only

You can't remove a deceased person from the scene "against their will".
 
  • #36,227
I wonder if they have been searched?
There is a limit to what you can search in many mines. I have gone through many and some platforms and vertical shafts are very old and dangerous. There are toxic gases, water tables, collapsing sides,, etc.. What it would take to search those randomly is not something that would be done without some kind of tip leading to a specific one. JMO based on my own experience setting up crazy people on safety descenders.
 
  • #36,228
Nancy Guthrie case update: Investigators searching for new leads as unidentified DNA remains key focus

'Gumshoe work rather than dramatic developments'

Investigators say the Nancy Guthrie search has shifted to detailed detective work.

Officials are urging the public to report unusual gaps or missing persons in their communities.

Legal experts say unidentified DNA could be a linchpin in the case.

Officials with the Pima County Sheriff’s Department and FBI described current efforts in the Nancy Guthrie case as "gumshoe detective work," emphasizing methodical follow-ups rather than dramatic developments.

 
  • #36,229
Maybe it was a staged kidnapping to cover up.a murder like another famous case. My opinion only
Like “police should look away from the house”?
 
  • #36,230
Maybe it was his attempt at a disguise? Not being the brightest crayon in the box, he left his golf shoes on? MOO.
Another possibility is he/she got the 'costume' items at Thrift stores. Not at all traceable then. That would add to the 'much preparation' theory, but I am totally boggled by the WHY. Podcasters on You Tube are also now talking about the fact that Savannah has written a book, sold on Amazon. Adult and children's versions(about God). I understand why people are looking for any piece of information to add to the pile...
 
  • #36,231
The odd behavior of the front porch intruder can be explained by assuming that a change had to be made to the kidnapper’s original plan to exit the house by the same path used to enter the house; namely, by the back door. The following paragraphs explain this further.

The first figure shows the first frame of video from the front door camera that shows the intruder approaching the front porch. Notice that the intruder is stepping onto the front walk from a position to the left, and not from the right or from straight ahead. Therefore, it is unlikely that he came up the front walk steps where the hand rail is located. So, where could he be coming from?
View attachment 647008
The answer can be found by looking at the second figure, which shows an aerial view of the front of the house.
View attachment 647010
This view shows the intruder’s position with a red rectangle. It is immediately in front of a white circular stepping stone that can be seen in both the door camera video and the aerial view of the house. Now, this position is approached most easily by a clear path to the corner of the house as shown by the red dots in the aerial view. It is unlikely that the intruder entered this bath from any point short of the corner of the house because he would have had to climb over a two-foot high pile of rocks to reach the path as shown in the third figure – something not impossible, but a hassle that one would have preferred to avoid especially at night.
View attachment 647011
Therefore, it appears that the intruder came to the front door from a point beyond the corner of the house. This point was most likely the point of entry into the house, which we are told by authorities was the door to the back porch. If this is the case, then most likely the intruder came from inside the house before he approached the front door.

Now, let’s assume that that the original plan was to for the kidnapper(s) to exit the house by walking out the back door with their victim walking beside them to their vehicle located somewhere down the street. This would have been their safest option to avoid other cameras. And parking the vehicle on the street would have made it easier for a fast getaway than parking in the driveway, where they could have been blocked in. Unfortunately, while they were inside the house it became apparent to them that it was impossible for Nancy to walk to the vehicle where it was, either because Nancy told them she couldn’t walk that far or because they could see for themselves that she couldn’t walk that far (they could have spotted the walker she used inside the house). Therefore, they were forced to make a change in their exit plan and to bring the vehicle closer to the house so Nancy wouldn’t have to walk as far. The front door was decided to be the best option for doing this.

Therefore, while one of the kidnappers remained with Nancy to ensure that she didn’t call the police, the other kidnapper exited out the back door to get the vehicle. While on his way to get the vehicle, he remembered that there was a front door camera that could see the vehicle approach the front of the house, watch them enter the vehicle, and make their getaway. He knew this camera existed because of his reconnaissance of the house a few weeks earlier, when he was spotted unknowingly by the front door camera. Therefore, he had to either cover up the camera or remove it entirely before bringing the vehicle to the house. So, he went directly from the back porch to the front porch to disable the camera.

One can see on the camera video that he knew the camera existed because he held his head down while approaching the camera from the side. When he was unable to remove camera easily, he decided to temporarily cover it up with something so that it could not see the vehicle, assuming he could find a tool later in the vehicle or in the house that would help him remove the camera while they were exiting through the front door. So, he decided to use some nearby vegetation to disable the camera. While covering it with vegetation appears to most people to be a sign of gross incompetence, it actually served his purpose quite well because the camera was unable to see him later bring the vehicle to the front steps, get out, and approach the camera once more to remove it, either by approaching it from outside the house or from the inside. Then, after the camera was removed, no one could see them take Nancy down the front walk, put her in the vehicle, and then leave in the vehicle. And we know that they exited this way because of the blood on the front porch that wasn’t there when the intruder approached the camera the first time.

So this change of exit plan explains the following:

1) The front door video occurs while leaving the house and not while entering the house.
a. The intruder at the front door was inside the house prior to going to the front door and was likely the driver of the vehicle.
b. This explains the full backpack used by the intruder at the front door. It contains objects taken from inside or outside the house like possibly cameras, and other objects of value, and not just tools for entering the house.
c. It explains why covering the camera with vegetation was an effective action and not a sign of gross incompetence.

2) The intruder on the video at the front door likely had an accomplice.
a. Someone had to guarantee that Nancy would not call the police while the intruder was at the front door.
b. Someone had to guarantee that Nancy would not call the police while someone else disabled cameras and flood lights before exiting the house, which could have caused sounds that Nancy might have heard. (Nancy was hard of hearing and used hearing aids, but the kidnappers likely did not know this ahead of time).
c. The intruder appears to not have full use of his right hand, right elbow, and right leg, making it difficult for him to climb to the roof to remove cameras.
d. If the intruder did not have an accomplice, then he had to ensure that Nancy could not call the police while he was absent by tying her up with tape or cord. But it still would have been risky to leave her alone.

3) Change of exit plan does not depend upon how Nancy entered her house prior to her kidnapping.

4) Change of exit plan does not depend upon how the kidnappers entered the house.
a. Either Nancy left the back door unlocked, or
b. Someone else had left the back door unlocked, or
c. The kidnappers picked the lock on the back door. (There was no forced entry).
d. The kidnappers could have entered the house via a sliding door to the bedroom. In this case they would have still planned to exit via the back door because exiting via the sliding door would have required the victim to climb over a low brick wall. The rear porch did not have a sliding door.

5) The camera removed by the FBI from the roof of the guest house would have seen all entry and exit movements by any intruders via the back door. This camera was overlooked by the kidnappers because it was not on the roof of the main house. At this time only the FBI knows how much of this video data was stored within this camera, stored onsite in the house, or transmitted to the cloud. Perhaps some data was stored. Perhaps none was stored.
This is the first explanation for using the plant to shield the camera that seems completely plausible. He doesn't appear rattled or surprised by the camera so why does he bother to grab a plant and cover it up? To shield the getaway. Brilliant, excellent post!
 
  • #36,232
Okay so not a burglary but a kidnapping. Do you think maybe they left a note at the scene & it has not been mentioned? A & T would have gotten it.
 
  • #36,233
Maybe it was a staged kidnapping to cover up.a murder like another famous case. My opinion only
penalties for kidnapping are pretty bad too. especially if the victim doesn't get released uninjured.

in hypothetical unnamed other cases, the purpose of staging a kidnapping might have been to deflect blame onto another person, not necessarily to mask what kind of crime occurred.
 
  • #36,234
There is a limit to what you can search in many mines. I have gone through many and some platforms and vertical shafts are very old and dangerous. There are toxic gases, water tables, collapsing sides,, etc.. What it would take to search those randomly is not something that would be done without some kind of tip leading to a specific one. JMO based on my own experience setting up crazy people on safety descenders.
Agree. I actually saw a mine being searched in California and it was a complicated process. I wonder if cadaver dogs can be helpful?
 
  • #36,235
You can't remove a deceased person from the scene "against their will".
Actually, legally, moving a dead, or dying person is considered kidnapping. It would be included in any list of criminal charges. My mother was murdered and kidnapping was one of the charges, as her body was removed from her home, and technically still alive, but dying. My own experience.
 
  • #36,236
I can't believe it's already been a week since the big swat action last Friday and we're nowhere nearer to resolution than we were then. Calm before the storm?
 
  • #36,237
Welcome @Old Jim .

I tend to agree with this theory, makes no sense to go to the front door unless you were expecting someone on other side to open for you. Or you had opened it from inside already.

I listened to Gray Hughes today and he had similar theory as yours.

 
  • #36,238
There is a limit to what you can search in many mines. I have gone through many and some platforms and vertical shafts are very old and dangerous. There are toxic gases, water tables, collapsing sides,, etc.. What it would take to search those randomly is not something that would be done without some kind of tip leading to a specific one. JMO based on my own experience setting up crazy people on safety descenders.
That is the huge problem, they don't know where to search anymore. Such a large vast area, sadly, she could be anywhere. The entire population of AZ could be out day and night and not find her. Why do things have to happen to good people. I am not faulting any LE for not finding her. Just seeing the videos people posted earlier today of the landscape and how endless it goes. I hope they find her, please let the criminal(s) have a change of heart. I guess first they would have to get a heart to change it. Poor Nancy, please be with us still by some miracle
 
  • #36,239
“We also have some things at that scene that indicate to us that she was removed from that scene against her will." - Sheriff Nanos

I think this is very important for all of us to consider because this seems to indicate that Nancy was alive when she was removed from her home sometime Saturday evening or Sunday morning. Otherwise they wouldn't have evidence that she was removed "against her will."

You can't make that claim about a deceased individual.

More and more I'm leaning toward "against her will" via a syringe with a sleeping agent in it and that syringe was accidentally dropped and that's what they found that Sunday. Dual DNA...Nancy's and whomever filled the syringe. A glove may have been worn when injection her but wearing a glove may not have been done when it was filled. A simple mistake made in the 'excitement' of preparing for this crime.
MOO
 
  • #36,240
Actually, legally, moving a dead, or dying person is considered kidnapping. It would be included in any list of criminal charges. My mother was murdered and kidnapping was one of the charges, as her body was removed from her home, and technically still alive, but dying. My own experience.

Oh @Katrinepa, how horrible! I am so sorry for you and your family.

It’s very brave of you to be on this thread. All good wishes going forward ❤️
 

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