• #38,761
I was wondering the same-it sure looks a lot easier to get in through the slider. Makes you wonder why masked guy/s went to the front, unless that was the intended exit. More questions than answers, exiting through the garage was another option that was not taken.
it seems logical if he was creeping on her property and he saw the sliding glass doors but realized there was the wall, so he chose to gain entry via the sliders as he was able bodied and could easily get over the wall, then entered via slider doors as they may have been easy to pry open and exited via front door removing the need to carry/assist your victim over the wall, and I doubt NG could have climbed that wall so he took her out via the path of least resistance
he possibly knew he would need different exit to entrance thus his removal of camera
 
  • #38,762
I still can't shake the notion that the camera bit was performative, especially if the guy had been to the house before. I mean, he probably did stake out the house at some point, even if that's not what the backpackless photo represents.

If you were a criminal, and you knew there was a Nest camera - very common, not discrete - would you do this little song and dance? Would you cup your hand around the lens, leaving it to film your clothing and firearm? Or would you block the lens completely and immediately and rip it off the wall? Every extra moment of motion increases the chances of an alert and of capturing your visage. I just can't see any reason for someone to mess about with it like he did, even if he's an inexperienced criminal.

And then there's the lantana. It was a totally unnecessary action. I struggle to believe someone would so quickly decide upon doing what he did, especially not someone so fastidious with skin protection. Did Nancy keep a spare key under there or something? Was that the taunt? I wish we knew how the suspect entered the home.
I think the Lantana camera crush moment was a "ha, ha, I see you too." Duper's Delight?
 
  • #38,763
also the fact that the Sheriff is doing a REALITY show atm looks bad.
 
  • #38,764
I found audio on it just now and it sounds like a 911 call. I was wrong. 3.5 miles (estimated) from her home. I heard it on a source called broadcastify but I need to find out more about this and find an approved way to link it.

Thanks for checking!

ETA: The audio clip is supposedly from "Tucson Police West Division."

Is it the woman screaming in the blue car ?
 
  • #38,765
Not from her house.

A call about an incident at or around 3:01 a.m. about a mile and a half from her home.

I'll add JMO/MOO on this.
Depending on the direction you’re thinking, it would most likely be PCSO area and not TPD. It may not show up in the logs.
 
  • #38,766
They searched a lot right at NG’s house and very nearby neighborhood. Very thorough, I believe.
Flyover and drones for other areas further out.

I really think they need ground searches, dogs, volunteers to look along country or dirt roads, washes, remote trail parking areas. I would think local hikers, bikers would know about lots of spots to explore. Maybe look at Strava for Tucson area, trail maps for ideas.

Just an idea
The fact that they found a backpack within 2 miles of the house says alot. I dont think this backpack is involved but shows the area had not been searched.
 
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  • #38,767
So what are we thinking is going on with the back and forth for these photos? PCSD didn’t want to release, but FBI did so they “leaked”? PCSD was on board but doesn’t want to confirm?

So curious if SG is working with ALL LE on this new reward or taking advisement from FBI only.

MOO
 
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  • #38,768
People tuck in the front in concealed carry, it is called appendix carry (see second pic attached) What he was doing was an awkward open carry version of that and it was hanging low off his belt because this cheap holster has a belt loop and not a clip like others.
Take a look at a couple of the photos of the perp. It's hanging into his crotch! I have a name for that but i am a lady and I will refrain! lol JMO
 
  • #38,769
Depending on the direction you’re thinking, it would most likely be PCSO area and not TPD. It may not show up in the logs.
"Tucson Police West Division"

ETA: from what I understand and have seen.
 
  • #38,770
Long time reader, but I had to register to share some theories I haven’t seen much here or anywhere else online.

These deal with two main issues: cameras and the timeline (40+ minutes). IMO major possibilities are being overlooked in both cases. When something doesn’t make sense, that usually means we just haven’t found the right explanation yet. IMO the explanation I will offer below makes a lot of seemingly confusing data points fit perfectly.

This is all just my opinion based on things we have heard.

Topic #1: Cameras

First, cameras: IMO this guy WANTED to be seen. In fact, it was a key part of his strategy. Both times, but especially the first time he showed up. As someone who has these types of cameras as part of my home security system and understands them extremely well, it actually makes perfect sense that he would want to trigger them AND appear in the image.

Think of a camera as an early warning system as much as it is a camera. Some people silence them all night and rely on them to provide retroactive evidence of a crime. Others want the alerts to wake them up so they have early warning of danger. Some do both. That makes all the difference in this crime.

One of the underappreciated aspects of Blink, Nest, Ring, and the like is that in addition to being cameras and microphones, they also act as perimeter annunciators. What I mean by that is that it is practically impossible to disable them without first triggering them, which sends an immediate alert to someone’s phone (sometimes multiple people’s phones, depending on the setup). You can rip the camera off the wall and destroy it but it’s already too late: it has served its purpose and alerted the owner, who is possibly now awake and taking any number of actions. The criminal’s element of surprise is gone and their presence is known. That is, unless the homeowner silences alerts at night and just checks in the morning (as most people do because they don’t want to wake up every time a cat walks across their porch in the middle of the night).

In this scenario, he didn’t care about being filmed per se. He’s well disguised anyway and likely assumes he will be filmed somewhere by a camera he missed. IMO his concern was 100% about whether the alerts would wake Nancy up before he got inside and spoil his plan.

He needed the element of surprise. An 84 year old woman is definitely going to dial 911 if she is awakened by a break- in in progress. Even if he gets her out before police arrive, the police are now aware of a break-in/kidnapping in progress and will be swarming the entire neighborhood. The criminal might even drive past a responding officer, who will afterwards recall seeing the vehicle leaving the neighborhood as they responded. They might even call it in and have another officer stop that vehicle in case it is the perp. Risk goes way, way up if Nancy wakes up at any point before he gets inside and can stop her from calling 911.

Let’s assume this new timeline of photos is correct: he was there beforehand, likely an earlier date. I have thought since the photos first emerged that they must have been taken on different nights. Most people have focused on the shoes, lack of backpack, lack of holster… but the first thing I noticed was the distinct lack of a shadow (his shadow is clearly visible on the night he wore the backpack and holster, but absent in the photo where he is not wearing them).

This suggests a pitch black night in the earlier timeframe photo, perfect for recon. He wears his same gear that he’ll wear later because he is doing a dry run and wants it to feel as much like the real thing as possible, and he also does not want to be identified. He also wants to appear as menacing as possible for the camera as mentioned above.

He has to know what to expect, if anything, when the camera is triggered. And he would understand that triggering it is unavoidable.

Even if the criminal has a wifi jammer most systems will then alert the owner that all the modules are down. So they’re now awake at a minimum and likely to notice sounds outside or even to look out the windows to investigate, because that is suspicious.

These alerts could very well be loud and wake the person up. The person might then turn lights on in the house, go to live view to see what is going on, or dial 911 or text a family member depending on the circumstances. Or grab a firearm that they have for protection. Maybe all of the above. The criminal has no idea what is going on, if anything at all. Almost all of these systems will send an immediate thumbnail before recording so that even if the camera is disabled before the video is uploaded to the cloud you have an image of whatever set it off on your phone.

IMO this guy is almost posing for the camera on the earlier date. He needs to find out: what happens if the camera alerts AND the image in the thumbnail or on the phone is of a terrifying man in a mask and gloves? Notice he stands far enough away that you can see he looks terrifying but can’t make out much in terms of ID. It’s no good if it alerts and the image is some strange blur or nothing at all, because those of us who have these cameras see that stuff all the time. Cats, rabbits, the wind.. All cause triggers. You’re not raising the alarm so to speak, for every single time it notifies you of motion.

He needs the person inside to see a central casting bad guy so that they will react however they are going to react. That reaction will then be taken into account in whatever plans he has for the actual night of the kidnapping. Thus the need for a 2-part plan.

Now imagine you are 84. Your phone alerts and wakes you up in the middle of the night. You see THAT on your screen. You are almost certainly going to react. You likely dial 911. You turn on lights in the house because you are definitely not going to want to sit in the dark until cops come. You text or call family or neighbors for help right after 911. In short, ruckus ensues.

Or maybe your family also gets the alerts. It’s not yet 2AM on a Saturday. It’s not impossible that someone else also gets the alert who is actually still awake, watching TV, playing video games, whatever. They see that nightmare on grandma’s front door, or mom’s front door. Obviously action will be taken of some type.

So he poses to ensure that he has triggered the camera, then quickly retreats down the street into the brush somewhere to hide. Do lights come on? Do police arrive? Does a dog bark? Is there any activity at all?

Hmm, nothing. Nothing happens at all he notices. So he slinks away into the darkness, confident that the cameras are no real threat. The biggest threat of the cameras is that they wake Nancy up before he can get inside, meaning 911 is called.

So he waits a couple weeks and watches off and on. Are more visible security measures taken? Do new cameras appear?

Now, here’s the thing: he is likely feeling better in terms of not alerting anyone inside based on previous recon. But that could be a one-off. Maybe she silenced her phone that night but not this one. So he needs a quick repeat on the night of.

This is where the timeline comes in.

Topic #2: Timeline on the Night of the Kidnapping

I do not believe at all that he was inside the house for 40+ minutes as we keep hearing almost everywhere. That makes zero sense for a kidnapping, where every moment spent at the scene in contact with the victim= increased risk.

In this scenario I have described he returns a couple of weeks later, fairly confident that the cameras pose no real threat. He likely now assumes Nancy has her phone on silent so that every time a cat or other animal walks by at night she doesn’t wake up.

However, he has to make sure, just in case she woke up the next morning (from the earlier recon) and saw that image and NOW takes more security steps, such as having her alerts on loud enough to wake her up. Maybe a neighbor or someone else is also now getting them as a backup. He doesn’t know, so he goes up to the porch, knowing the camera will activate. Of course he ducks his head just in case (why over expose himself to being filmed?).

This is a test… What will happen?

The lantana also serves a purpose: it looks even more scary/wrong. If anyone is seeing someone do that they are raising the alarm 100% for sure. It escalates from a simple prowler on the porch to likely intent to cause harm.

But nothing happens. He slinks to the shadows again and waits. No lights come on. No cops show up. This could account for a solid 15-20 minutes of that 40 minute timeline we keep hearing about. Again, there is no real rush here. If he is detected he will escape into the pitch black and brush unseen. If he is not detected then it’s like he just arrived. It’s likely he has a getaway driver close by but not so close that if police suddenly come flying down the street his car isn’t sitting there parked suspiciously. It’s not like he can hop into a car and take off 2 houses down at 2:30 AM or so when the police are responding to a suspicious man trying to break into a house.

We have also heard about a second motion detection after 2, about 15 minutes or so before Nancy’s pacemaker disconnected from her watch. This could be the kidnapper(s) proceeding to gain entry into the house, meaning they would have only been inside for 10 minutes or less in total, which makes a lot more sense. One restrains her while the other goes and gets the car OR signals the getaway driver that it’s time, which obviously would not be in the driveway to begin with in case their camera test resulted in their presence being detected. So that takes a few minutes, as does getting her into the car, situated, and leaving.

If you take all that into account, we could be talking 5-10 minutes or even less in the house in total. If they were there for 40 minutes they would have cleaned up all the blood drops. Instead, IMO, they got in as quietly as possible after making sure the cameras didn’t wake anyone up, and got her out as quickly as possible, because who knows what little hidden cameras or security items they could miss. Kidnappers act fast. They don’t stick around the scene any longer than needed once the crime is in motion.

Just my theory, but I think it explains this person’s actions. Far from being a bumbling amateur, this was IMO a clever test to see what alerts, if any, would result from the camera before proceeding into the house.
To add to this, I think he acted alone. It makes the most sense on why the camera was disabled from the front of the house. He walks up to the house, disables camera, and then hides out and waits. He waits to see if any lights go or is listening to the police scanner for any 911 calls. Once he feels the coast is clear and the front camera removed, he pull his vehicle up to the front of the house. This is the quickest exit strategy if he’s acting alone and need to carry her. We can be 99.9% sure he left with her through the front door, because of the blood trailing that dna confirmed NG. There is no way the front door was unlocked and it has a metal screen door. Forcing entering through a back door would be quieter and faster. MOO.

I’m assuming this is why LE doesn’t feel the community is in danger. This looks like a very calculated and targeted kidnapping. MOO.
 
  • #38,771
I was watching CBS earlier today, they said that they are in the period when they might possibly 'hit pay dirt' regards to the DNA / genealogy. So that could come any day now.
 
  • #38,772
  • #38,773
  • #38,774
Take a look at a couple of the photos of the perp. It's hanging into his crotch! I have a name for that but i am a lady and I will refrain! lol JMO
Yes!
I am a gun owner and while the appendix carry isn’t totally abnormal, the holster being so low is. MOO
 
  • #38,775
She would have to be taken over the short wall.
 
  • #38,776
Bbm. Yes, I'm actually looking at a spreadsheet with 57,308 records from the Tucson PD. The report is available on their page and references the calls from the last 45 days. It's a little tricky to navigate as it's broken down by neighborhood. I'm not from the area so I tried searching the spreadsheet on NG's street name but I'm not having any luck. It's a very large file but you can filter it in lots of different ways.
I just looked at it and just used the map version. I don’t see any calls from her neighborhood. I did find the call from Feb 1 located on AG’s street though, not Nancy’s.


Edited to add: I guess I’m wrong because this is 1/31 so Nancy didn’t go missing until later that night. Interesting there seems to be a 911 call from their exact street on 1/31.
 

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  • #38,777
  • #38,778
There were also ground searches by personnel, volunteers and dogs.

Linked pictures and articles on the thread.

Hikers and bikers know where to explore but the searchers are looking for a body. Not everyone is up for that or qualifies to do so on their own. Any evidence or, God forbid, a body needs to be found with oversight to protect the chain of discovery and custody, imo.

An article posted says upward of 400 looking for NG. That's a lot of resources.

Nothing wrong with sleuthing but really don't think the SO and FBI think of these things or don't have investigative knowledge, at all?

Who is paying for all this? Some one has to think about where to direct resources to the best advantage.

imo
You are right, they must have lots of search areas identified. I stand with LE, I didn’t mean to underestimate their knowledge!
May this be the day that NG is found! 🙏
 
  • #38,779
  • #38,780
Nanos can't stop the family from doing what they wish. I'm sure they are getting professional advice from experienced experts. They are trying to be realistic and practical. The word 'closure' is not applicable in any case like this. There is Never closure, but only coming to terms, realizing they have no control, but at least recovery of the body allows them to go through the stages of grief, each in their own way. I'm sure they have already begun the Denial stage, but will still hold onto even a sliver of hope, until they actually have confirmation of death.
Anyone interested in the stages of death everyone goes through can read , "On Death and Dying", by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, the definitive go to for anyone dealing with loss/grief, from any walk of life.
FYI:
The five stages of grief, as described by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, are:

I hope I come across friendly, I would like to share information on this. This may be an interesting read for you, the five stages were not meant to be about what those left behind experience. She based it on interviews with over 200 dying patients. I have read some her writings at the end of her life, she was unhappy that her work was taken out of context. And you are correct, they were never meant to be linear or applied to all people.

From


“Using these experiences Kübler-Ross wrote her now famous book outlining the DABDA model, citing her contact with ‘‘over two hundred dying patients’" as its basis. Now, she did write in On Death and Dying that, “family members undergo different stages of adjustment similar to the ones described for our patients,” but having a loved one diagnosed with a terminal illness is not the same as losing said loved one to death. The five stages of grief were never meant for the bereaved. That’s just how they’ve been applied again and again.”

The EKR Foundation has further developed the model into what they now call the EKR Change Curve. There are other frameworks that speak to change in addition to the EKR one I mentioned above.
 

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