ND - Several bodies found at Mandan business, 1 April 2019 *Arrest* #2

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  • #681
It's solid. 480 billion to 1 that it's the victim's blood.
where did you get that statistic from. ?
in the LONG Ago Dingo took the Baby case of the Chamberlains in Central Australia at a camp site at Uluru.. the young daughter went missing. A certified ?? govt analyst stated that the mark on the back seat of the car was foetal blood and therefore the young baby was murdered. Lindy Chamberlain went to prison. Later on ANOTHER more detailed analysis said it was.... wait for it... melted chocolate. Then the stuff hit the fan.

From the Wikipedia entry -
"The questionable nature of the forensic evidence in the Chamberlain trial, and the weight given to it, raised concerns about such procedures and about expert testimony in criminal cases. The prosecution had successfully argued that the pivotal haemoglobin tests indicated the presence of foetal haemoglobin in the Chamberlains' car and it was a significant factor in the original conviction. But it was later shown that these tests were highly unreliable and that similar tests, conducted on a "sound deadener" sprayed on during the manufacture of the car, had yielded virtually identical results."



This makes me very nervous about (possible) amateurs operating in the technology area of law enforcement. I've seen it before.

for many years after that , the sarcastic reaction to an unsolved crime in "Stralia was -" the Bloody Dingo Did it "

Kidon G.
 
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  • #682
where did you get that statistic from. ?
in the LONG Ago Dingo took the Baby case of the Chamberlains in Central Australia at a camp site at Uluru.. the young daughter went missing. A certified ?? govt analyst stated that the mark on the back seat of the car was foetal blood and therefore the young baby was murdered. Lindy Chamberlain went to prison. Later on ANOTHER more detailled analysis said it was.... wait for it... melted chocolate. Then the stuff hit the fan.

This makes me very nervous about (possible) amateurs operating in the technology area of law enforcement. I've seen it before.

for many years after that , the sarcastic reaction to an unsolved crime in "Stralia was -" the Bloody Dingo Did it "

Kidon G.

It's what the DNA expert said yesterday.
 
  • #683
Here's an interesting set of photos from a Google search. Chad Isaak looks as if he's lost a quarter of his body weight since his arrest in 2019. Look how skinny he is now.

Worry, I suppose.

Chad Isaak trial - Google Search
 
  • #684
Looks like it's over. Victim's blood found in his truck.

this is vastly oversimplified as a statement. Don't forget that Quick the lead defense lawyer said at the beginning of the trial - there is NO conclusive DNA evidence from his home, work vehicle or person linking him to any of the murder victims. Do you think that Quick is going to say this if he is going to be shot down in flames four days in. Don't forget the defense has to be given full discovery to the prosecution case.

I think the Prosecution was being utter bastards saying that the brown patches on the seats were probative blood areas. This confuses the jury (and some members may be easily confused!! ) . The fact it they were professionally examined and were found to contain zero reportable DNA. Prosecution knew this when making those statements. This constitutes abuse of process.

KG
 
  • #685
Here's a heads up I recently sent to Law E in Bismark ND (I trust them more than Mandan which seems a bit of a sleepy hick town) . I gave them an 8 hr head start after I saw they'd read the post before I placed it here (That said, I am sure the BCI has the revolver parts under their custody and control). The reference to Jake and Elwood right at the end is of course to the Blues Brothers (I might be dating myself as it were...)


Note to forensic examiners Mandan ND quad murder 1st April 2019 - REVOLVER SUBFRAME ASSLY IN EVIDENCE - that silver round thing on the back strap of the gun frame (Ruger LCR/LCRx ) is a swage rivet. It appears to be swaging a recoil buffer strip of spring steel to the frame. Between the alloy frame and the rivet there may be an accumulation of dried material - it's a thin gap. Blood may have gone there. If the blood was there for more than a few hrs, then rust production expansion may have sealed the area to later bleaching. I'd suggest to disconnect the spring steel further down the frame and then using a universal tensile test machine : grip the strip in a jig and slowly peal the entire strip off and do a micro swab for DNA underneath. take care that a mix of Fe-rust products and old blood could flake out at a microscopic level.

Test also for the presence of Hypochorite Bleach decay products, being NaCL and NaOH. This could be the justification for the late test - nobody knows if this gun part assly has been bleached or not. The detective from BCI who found it thinks yes it is but nobody has proven it. (this can be used as a justification for the extra testing).

This is a long shot but it will at least clear up the gun bleaching allegation I believe and it may in fact yield more evidence gold than that. Given where the trial is just now, at if this is to happen it will need to be expedited.




Do not under any circumstances use a grinder to remove that rivet - the heat could damage micro DNA samples (FYI I have done and have in the past been certified for forensic UT and Xray for industrial research reasons) but not cop reasons. For Cop stuff : I leave that to Jake and Elwood.


K Gadol
For those following this - I sent a second copy to the BCI in Bismark to a specific person's email address. There is a read receipt on it It would have been available to read sometime Monday. I was hoping to see it had been opened but so far no message back and no email queries. I will advise if I do see that read Rx.

I felt that simply sending it to the police in Bismark would not get them fired up given they have made the case file, and the case is running.

Even if BCI , ND follow my suggestion or a derivative of it , there's no chance I'd get an advanced view of the information. KG.
 
  • #686
Yes. All that carnage yet we see no evidence of blood spatters or smears on CI’s clothing as cameras catch him walking through RJR. I have little doubt CI is guilty but something still feels “off” to me. Like a big piece of the puzzle is missing and if we could just find it, we’d see the picture clearly.
Yes! Fortunately, in an early video clip, I saw CI carrying a carpet as if it was a shield, and ever since seeing that I believed he overpowered his victims to the ground and somewhat trapped them, kneeling over them. I think it's possible his dark pants and sleeves had more blood splatter.
 
  • #687
Hello everyone! I didn’t get to watch or listen much except for the very end today on my way home and my video cut out at the end of day when someone was trying to submit something in evidence, and there was talk of a records custodian wouldn’t be needed to certify but a witness would be needed to lead up to why said evidence was being brought up. Can someone give me a rundown of what that was? Sorry if I mis-worded anything. I was concentrating on driving and probably only heard snippets before I lost access.
 
  • #688
It's what the DNA expert said yesterday.
ON the blood thing .. I think if you went to the Auckland zoo and withdrew blood from a random Orangutan and did a DNA survey you'd find quite a bit of DNA sequence I had in common. That does not make that Orangutan my Mother (some might disagree).

A DNA sequence either matches or it does not. Clearly some of the blood on the Stolen RJR truck might match one of the victims. If it matched Chad I don't think there would have be a formal trial - we would have heard about it by now. What was shown was the tiniest smear and of course could have come from a random tradesman who hurt himself on the job.
 
  • #689
Hello everyone! I didn’t get to watch or listen much except for the very end today on my way home and my video cut out at the end of day when someone was trying to submit something in evidence, and there was talk of a records custodian wouldn’t be needed to certify but a witness would be needed to lead up to why said evidence was being brought up. Can someone give me a rundown of what that was? Sorry if I mis-worded anything. I was concentrating on driving and probably only heard snippets before I lost access.
Ms yalda shel zahav ... THis (see link) seems to be a semi useful source for Chaddy information:

Chad Isaak trial: The latest | KX NEWS

There is supposedly a live stream here (Kind of useless if you are on the other side of the world) .

KX News Live Stream | KX NEWS

at the moment it is showing weather maps and cloud movement simulations.

hope this helps

Kidon G
 
  • #690
Thank you, but it doesn’t mention what I am referencing. I’ll go see if I can find the afternoon session video.

Ms yalda shel zahav ... THis (see link) seems to be a semi useful source for Chaddy information:

Chad Isaak trial: The latest | KX NEWS

There is supposedly a live stream here (Kind of useless if you are on the other side of the world) .

KX News Live Stream | KX NEWS

at the moment it is showing weather maps and cloud movement simulations.

hope this helps

Kidon G
 
  • #691
For those who have not seen it elsewhere - here is the ballistic evidence... such as it is --


11:50 a.m.: Judge David Reich calls a noon recess. The trial will resume at 1:10 p.m. - (NOTE - later evidence was on fibres - not ballistics)

11:48 a.m.: Re-cross-examination by defense attorney Luke Heck. Says, in reviewing a Luger manual, a specific fire control housing can be used in all LCR models. There are six LCR models.

11:40 a.m.: Re-direct by prosecuting attorney Gabrielle Joy Goter. Esposito says, when he searched the FBI database, he could only search on the 38 caliber class of bullets, he couldn’t narrow it down based on the class.

Esposito says, based on his examinations, he can’t exclude that the bullets were fired from the weapon he examined.

Says a 38 special bullet fired in a 357 weapon is a common scenario.



11:40 a.m.: The trial resumes.

11:39 a.m.: Judge David Reich calls for a one-minute stretch break.

11:04 a.m.: Cross-examination by defense attorney Jesse Walstad. Reviews Arnold Esposito’s reports.

Esposito restates he could not conclude the 8 RJR investigation bullets submitted to him for examination were fired from the same gun. Says the bullets could have been fired from more than one gun.

arnold-esposito17b.png

Witness Arnold Esposito
The FBI database search suggested numerous types of firearms that could handle the 38 caliber class of bullets he identified.

Says the database suggested 76 different firearms could have fired the victim bullets.

Says the 9 shell casings were consistent with the 38 caliber class. Says, after examination, the 9 shell casings could neither be included nor excluded as having been fired from the same firearm.

jesse-walstad17b.png

Defense attorney Jesse Walstad
Esposito says he is aware Ruger produces many weapons that use a common fire control like the one used in the LCR Ruger.

Says after examining the RJR gun frame, he could not conclusively state the weapon fired the RJR victim bullets.

Says he cannot say all the bullets were fired from the same gun, that the casings were from the same gun, that the bullets came from the casings, and that multiple weapons could have fired the 38 class of bullets he examined.

Says later he received a Taurus 9 millimeter Luger, the RJR bullets and shell casings for comparison testing. He did a test firing of the gun to collect two test bullets. Excluded the Taurus as the gun that could have fired the RJR bullets and casings.

Says he did not receive for testing additional firearms beyond the two he received.

10:26 a.m.: Continuation of direct examination of Arnold Esposito, Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives department firearms and toolmark examiner by prosecuting attorney Gabrielle Joy Goter.

Esposito says he examined 8 fired bullets in the RJR case. Says he completed a bullet worksheet for each bullet. Weighed each bullet, measured the diameter and noted the class characteristics of the bullet and the rifling impressions.

Class characteristics were in the 38 caliber family.

Esposito noted in his examination that all the bullets were hollow point design bullets. Two of the projectiles had some maroon-colored fibers in the hollow points.

He also compared the bullets to each other. He noted they all share the same class features, meaning the dimensions of the rifling impressions. This suggests they could have all been fired from the same firearm, but added there were insufficient marks to let him says conclusively all the bullets came from the same firearm.

Esposito measured the rifling impressions of the bullets. Matched that against an FBI database on rifling impressions of firearms around the world. This gave him a list of firearms that could have possibly fired the bullets: 38 caliber, 9 millimeter and 357 magnum could have fired those bullets. Types of firearms include are revolvers, derringers, some lever-action rifles and semiautomatic firearms.

Esposito recaps he examined the 8 fired bullets, they were in the 38 caliber class, that they could have been fired from the same weapon.

Esposito also examined 9 expended cartridge casings submitted to him for examination. The shell casings came from the Chad Isaak home seized during a search of the home.

Says he noted that they all shared the same caliber — 38 special — and they had the same manufacturer stamp. Looked at the firing pin impressions and other marks left on the casings by a firearm when it was fired. Says all the shell casings shared the same class characteristics.

Can’t conclusively say they were all fired from the same weapon. Says the fired bullets could have come from the same casings but couldn’t say definitively.

Says he also examined a box of commercial ammunition that contained 13 live cartridges. Says the bullets shared the same class, or design characteristics, of the fired bullets. He also noted the head stamp on the unfired bullets were the same as those on the shell casings he examined.

Says he also took one of the cartridges and safety removed the bottom of the bullet. All the characteristics of the unfired bullets had similar characteristics to the fired bullet.

A cannelure is a marking pressed into the diameter of the cartridge. Says the cannelure markings on the fired and unfired bullets shared the same class characteristics.

Also examined gun parts submitted to him for examination — a fire control housing and some firearm component parts. He tried to identify the manufacturer of the firearm frame. He noticed the grip had a Ruger firearm logo. He attended a recent Ruger firearm course recently and worked on a 38 caliber LCR Luger 28 special firearm, a revolver type firearm. He said the weapon he worked on in the course was similar to the weapons submitted to him for testing.

He said the bottom part of the submitted gun was missing the upper component which held the barrel and the revolving cylinder and the serial number. He said those are the parts he would use to match a fired bullet to the weapon.

Says the bullets and cartridges could be fired in a 39 special Ruger revolver.

Says he examined a second firearm submitted in the RJR case. Says it was a Taurus semiautomatic pistol, 9 millimeter caliber. This firearm was on the list of possible firearms matching the type of bullets that could be fired from the firearm.

Fired two test bullets from the gun and, under examination, concluded the bullet and cartridge case fired from the submitted gun were excluded from matching the RJR bullets and casings.

10:25 a.m.: The Chad Isaak trial resumes, Judge David Reich presiding
===============
more (earlier in day) follows. ....
 
  • #692
Earlier firearm analysis testimony-


10:25 a.m.: The Chad Isaak trial resumes, Judge David Reich presiding

9:58 a.m.: Judge David Reich calls a 20-minute morning recess. The trial will resume at 10:20 a.m.

9:21 a.m.: Witness called — Arnold Esposito, Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives department firearms and toolmark examiner. Questioning by prosecuting attorney Gabrielle Joy Goter.

Esposito outlines what he does and his experience and training.

arnold-esposito17.png

Witness Arnold Esposito
Explains how evidence is handled at the ATF labs. Also, more than one examiner goes over the evidence to make sure the conclusions drawn are sound. Esposito says when he receives evidence, he inventories the evidence and photographs the evidence to document its condition and compares the evidence to the evidence documentation. Then he starts the examination process.

When firearms are manufactured, they are exposed to certain random markings from the tools making them. When a firearm is fired, unique markings in the firearm can be transferred to the cartridge fired from the firearm. Based on those unique markings, this makes it possible to trace a cartridge to a specific firearm.

A revolver has a rotating cylinder where the cartridges are held. Once a revolver is fired, the fired cartridges remain in the cylinder until removed by the shooter. A semi-automatic ejects the shell casings when fired.

gabrielle-joy-goter17.png

Prosecuting attorney Gabrielle Joy Goter
Esposito explains “class characteristics” are characteristics of a unique group of firearms, such as make, model and rifling. “Individual characteristics” are the unique, random marking made during the manufacturing process.

Uses a comparison microscope which allows him to look at bullets under high magnification to identify markings on one bullet to markings on another bullet or cartridge case and see how they compare.

If the class characteristics match, he then looks at the individual characteristics of the items being compared — the distinct, random markings produced during the manufacturing process.

Esposito says he performed the analysis of evidence in the RJR investigation. His report was then reviewed by another examiner. The review agreed with Esposito’s conclusions. He prepared two reports on the RJR evidence he examined.

9:21 a.m.: The trial resumes.
 
  • #693
I found it. It was the defense discussing entering the restraining order that Nelson has against her ex husband into evidence. Go figure.

Earlier firearm analysis testimony-


10:25 a.m.: The Chad Isaak trial resumes, Judge David Reich presiding

9:58 a.m.: Judge David Reich calls a 20-minute morning recess. The trial will resume at 10:20 a.m.

9:21 a.m.: Witness called — Arnold Esposito, Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives department firearms and toolmark examiner. Questioning by prosecuting attorney Gabrielle Joy Goter.

Esposito outlines what he does and his experience and training.

arnold-esposito17.png

Witness Arnold Esposito
Explains how evidence is handled at the ATF labs. Also, more than one examiner goes over the evidence to make sure the conclusions drawn are sound. Esposito says when he receives evidence, he inventories the evidence and photographs the evidence to document its condition and compares the evidence to the evidence documentation. Then he starts the examination process.

When firearms are manufactured, they are exposed to certain random markings from the tools making them. When a firearm is fired, unique markings in the firearm can be transferred to the cartridge fired from the firearm. Based on those unique markings, this makes it possible to trace a cartridge to a specific firearm.

A revolver has a rotating cylinder where the cartridges are held. Once a revolver is fired, the fired cartridges remain in the cylinder until removed by the shooter. A semi-automatic ejects the shell casings when fired.

gabrielle-joy-goter17.png

Prosecuting attorney Gabrielle Joy Goter
Esposito explains “class characteristics” are characteristics of a unique group of firearms, such as make, model and rifling. “Individual characteristics” are the unique, random marking made during the manufacturing process.

Uses a comparison microscope which allows him to look at bullets under high magnification to identify markings on one bullet to markings on another bullet or cartridge case and see how they compare.

If the class characteristics match, he then looks at the individual characteristics of the items being compared — the distinct, random markings produced during the manufacturing process.

Esposito says he performed the analysis of evidence in the RJR investigation. His report was then reviewed by another examiner. The review agreed with Esposito’s conclusions. He prepared two reports on the RJR evidence he examined.

9:21 a.m.: The trial resumes.
 
  • #694
I found it. It was the defense discussing entering the restraining order that Nelson has against her ex husband into evidence. Go figure.

Thanks. I've been waiting for this. It's the defenses alternate suspect. Except I don't think her former spouse had his DNA mixed with the victims in the company vehicle, a sock concealing the correct bullet casings used to kill the victims, shoe matching the footprint lifted from the crime scene, or the murder weapon and orange hoody in his laundry machine. :eek:
 
  • #695
A DNA sequence either matches or it does not. Clearly some of the blood on the Stolen RJR truck might match one of the victims. If it matched Chad I don't think there would have be a formal trial - we would have heard about it by now. What was shown was the tiniest smear and of course could have come from a random tradesman who hurt himself on the job.

Can you elaborate on what you meant by the bolded sentence? Do you mean that if it matched Chad, in your opinion he would have pled guilty? Or do you mean something else? Thanks for explaining.
 
  • #696
Yes, so have I and I can’t believe I missed it because my playback cut out. When I first started reading about RF’s mistress’s ex husband, I knew then that’s where the defense would try and hang this. If the Defense is planning on being done by Noon tomorrow, I see them dropping no major bombs in 3.5 hours. I hate using the word, “excited” over this when so many people were hurt behind these murders, but I am very much looking forward to tomorrow’s testimonies.

Thanks. I've been waiting for this. It's the defenses alternate suspect. Except I don't think her former spouse had his DNA mixed with the victims in the company vehicle, a sock concealing the correct bullet casings used to kill the victims, shoe matching the footprint lifted from the crime scene, or the murder weapon and orange hoody in his laundry machine. :eek:
 
  • #697
Yes, so have I and I can’t believe I missed it because my playback cut out. When I first started reading about RF’s mistress’s ex husband, I knew then that’s where the defense would try and hang this. If the Defense is planning on being done by Noon tomorrow, I see them dropping no major bombs in 3.5 hours. I hate using the word, “excited” over this when so many people were hurt behind these murders, but I am very much looking forward to tomorrow’s testimonies.
I wasn't certain they would call any witnesses so I agree with you on "excited."
 
  • #698
I wasn't certain they would call any witnesses so I agree with you on "excited."
Did I hear wrong when the Defense said they would be turning over their witness list to the State tonight? How can this be? I thought all this information was to be sorted and known by both sides at the start of the trial.
 
  • #699
Can you elaborate on what you meant by the bolded sentence? Do you mean that if it matched Chad, in your opinion he would have pled guilty? Or do you mean something else? Thanks for explaining.
Absolutely - would plead guilty. They have One person .. bundled up and undentifiable enter the building out of place. The have apparently that person leave the building .. with 4 of dead bodies behind. They have that person steal the RJR vehicle (Cobb's plates known) Same vehicle turns up same am parked around the corner from RJR and some faint blood near the handle, with no evidence of anyone else driving it any other time. If that Blood matched CTI it's a slam dunk... everything else after about the F150 .. rust marks etc... If CTI cannot explain how that blood got on the door handle then I'm afraid the jury won't be too interested in any other matters.
NB NB NB this is a hypothetical situation. I have not seen evidence...hold on there is ... I believe that vehicle was fully tested I know from memory his DNA did not turn up. That spot may have been too faint to remove usable DnA from.
as per below - there is no mention of that off side door handle. No sure why.

Kidon G

Source :
Chad Isaak trial: August 16, 2021 | KX NEWS

partial quote

RJR vehicle driver’s side armrest swab: Partial profile and a mixture of two individuals. The major profile matched Robert Fakler. The minor partial profile was consistent with the profile of Lois Cobb. Chad Isaak was excluded as a contributor to the profile.
RJR steering wheel swab: The profile was a partial profile and mixture or two or more individuals. This profile could not be separated — it was too complex based on ND State Crime Lab procedures. This was sent to another lab to try and separate the mixture.
RJR vehicle gear selector switch swab: A partial profile and a mixture of two or more individuals. For the major profile matched the known profile from Robert Fakler. For the minor prifle was a partial profile and mixture of two individuals. Couldn’t separate it, but was able to exclude Chad Isaak from the profile.
RJR vehicle key swabs: The DNA didn’t meet the threshold for testing.
 
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  • #700
Did I hear wrong when the Defense said they would be turning over their witness list to the State tonight? How can this be? I thought all this information was to be sorted and known by both sides at the start of the trial.
The state is required to produce its witness list during discovery and the defense typically by trial but sometimes they change their mind. For example, if the defense believed the state did not prove its case, they could easily choose this option. It sounds like the defense wants to call witnesses and will provide the state with a final list for tomorrow's hearing. Don't forget the defense gets some breaks because they have no burden to prove CI innocent. It's all on the state.
 
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