Nedra & Patsy's sisters

[Solace]

Solace, all due respect, but you don't have to be a serial killer to know that a discrepancy between the apparent cause of death and the actual cause of death is going to be a huge red flag to LE. I replied below.

IF JR and PR really believed that the head blow had killed JBR, they would never have used the garrote, because JBR would be dead of a fractured skull, not asphyxiation! Why do you say that? They are going to have to explain that fractured skull to the authorities and they better have something stronger than she fell off the chair. And they don't. So they are going to stage and if they are going to stage, they are going all the way and then some - just so no one would think they are capable of it.

Only if someone knew that JBR had really been strangled, manually or otherwise, does the garrote make any sense. Maybe they wanted to hide the marks already on her neck - that is possible. But then that negates any theory of a sexual assault on her and the resulting death, if it were done purely to hide the fact that the garment she was wearing was twisted so hard that it strangled her leaving the thumbprint.. I am not sure UK would agree with that. But I would. It suggests, does not prove, that Patsy or someone else manually strangled her, not trying to kill here, imo, and then the rage escalated, as it will when unchecked, and they threw her and then the ensuing staging.

Now, I know that a lot of people point to the turtleneck, and say it was used to strangle JBR, but I don't think the forensic evidence supports that theory. Not only that, but PR begins to cry after saying the words, "A crown," after having been shown the picture of the balled-up turtleneck, so I'm not completely convinced that her emotional reaction is to the turtleneck itself.

Here's the quote, from the 6/98 interview:

23 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the red
24 item in the upper right-hand corner?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a
0266
1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,
2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites
3 and she didn't want to wear it.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up
5 there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A
7 crown. Oh, God.
8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.
9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,
10 how's that sound? We will come back.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Crying.) (INAUDIBLE
12 RESPONSE.)

Dru,

Of course you do not have to be a serial killer to understand the difference between apparent cause and actual cause. What I am saying is this is an unintentional death, albeit caused by a total lack of regard for JonBenet.

There is a three page ransom note and the writer is not thinking at all or they would not have left a three page note. So they are not thinking logically at all. JonBenet is near death, her head is in half which they can feel and I bet they did - after hearing the crack that was so loud it could not be missed and then Patsy shook her so hard that she left bruising on the sides of her brain. She is at that moment terrified - and I believe she is going to stage beyond what anyone would consider a parent capable of doing and it worked. We both agree that one of the parents did it. We just don't agree on why they did it.

I think it was a rage killing and remorse afterwards. I do not believe she was sexually molested. Just my opinion.

 

[Tober]

I also womder if some of the staging was made to "look like" a minor did this? Staging within staging.

Very good point. There's a lot of talk about how the resultant staging was bungled because it ended up looking how the stager thought it should look, rather than how they intended. Nonsense. The staging looks EXACTLY how the stager wanted it to. Also, I wonder if JonBenet's private area was intentionally wiped with John's shirt to try and implicate him in the crime? The RN sure reads like the writer was trying to make it seem like John wrote it.

 

[gracefuljf1505]

If that is what Blue Crab is suggesting, they do Not prosescute minors here in Colorado Yet Blue Crab seems to suggest yet a 5th party no more minors in the family I also womder if some of the staging was made to "look like" a minor did this? Staging within staging. I am not unwilling to consider a minor but not convinced either

i completely agree with you.

 

[JMO8778]

Very good point. There's a lot of talk about how the resultant staging was bungled because it ended up looking how the stager thought it should look, rather than how they intended. Nonsense. The staging looks EXACTLY how the stager wanted it to. Also, I wonder if JonBenet's private area was intentionally wiped with John's shirt to try and implicate him in the crime? The RN sure reads like the writer was trying to make it seem like John wrote it.

I don't think so.After reading Jeff Merrick's interview,the RN only makes sense if you consider JR dictated it to Patsy in order to frame Merrick and his associated friends..the '2 gentlemen' in the note,the $118,000 amt,and also the switching to using is first name at the end,as well as the 'fat cat' and 'use that good southern common sense of yours' line,all were put there in an attempt to make it look like JM wrote that note..and that's exactly why JR kept pointing the finger at him after the murder,inc. right after he found JB's body ie-'this had to be an inside job',is what he was referring to,IMO.I don't think there's any other way around it.Just none whatsoever.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Not unless JonBenet's sexual assault predates her asphyxiation and head blow, and the staging is what comes later?


.

I think it's possible she was sexually assaulted 2x that night...the last being a staged assault to cover past abuse.

 

[JMO8778]

DeeDee, exactly! The cover-up has to be of something more than just the head injury, because even a really bad head injury, if that were all, wouldn't automatically mean criminal charges and jail time. For one thing, just look at the R's house! Multiple staircases, a balcony in JBR's room, fireplaces, oddly angled countertops (look at the one near the phone in the kitchen, for example), the laundry area right outside JBR's room, the nightstand in her room (and the trunk, and the headboard of the bed, and the trophies on the cabinet--heck, even the TV in her closet!)--there are literally dozens of ways to create a "head injury" scenario, if that was all the R's had to cover up.

good thought,when my son was 3 yrs old,he pushed our 27' tv off the stand hard enough to break the picture tube.If he'd pulled it off instead,and it had fallen over on him,I think it could have caused him serious injury.It does happen.

But the R's, or at least one of them, knew that something else had to be accounted for, and quite honestly the only thing that makes sense to me is preexisting sexual abuse. An abuser would know that all the "sad, tragic accidental death of a six-year-old" staging in the world wouldn't explain to the police why the six-year-old's hymenal opening was abnormally enlarged, which in turn would raise red flags about the "accident" in the first place.

perhaps that's the reason 911 wasn't called..same reason she was denied seeing another Dr for her soiling issues?

And I keep coming back to the idea that the original plan was to get JBR's body out of the house. I envision the mind of the killer/killers this way:
1. JBR is dying; sexual abuse must be covered; vaginal wound inflicted.
2. JBR must be dead; strangulation.(I think she was manually strangled right b/f the head injury occured.I think they already thought she was dead here.The garrote was applied here,IMO,and it did 2 things..covered the manual strangulation,and accounted for the 'beheading' in the RN.I think they had this in mind when it was being done,or they may have thought it up when writing the note..thus the 'small foreign faction' who beheads ppl.I think the manual strangulation being covered with the ligature strangling then led to them making up the SFF and 'beheading' nonsense).
3. JBR must be removed from the house; ransom note.
4. JBR can't be safely removed from the house; staging with garrote and 'wrist restraints.' (I see the garrote as being applied right after the vag. wound,as above.So at this point,JR tries to undo some of the staging..wiping her down,changing her underwear and wrapping her in the blanket.I think he forgot to redo the wrists and tie them tightly for the revised staging..thus the reason he lied and said they were tight when he found her..they weren't.He forgot change her wrists ligatures to fit the new staging).
5. JBR must not be found immediately, yet police must be called and flight to Charlevoix canceled; keep RN, hide body in wine cellar.(I think they meant for LE,(and thought they would),find her body right after they got to the house.At that point,the plane would still be ready to go and they could get out of there asap, as he tried to do just that,right after he 'found' her at 1pm.)
6. JBR's body must be found so we can leave, hire lawyers, plan what to do next; 'discover' body in wine cellar with FW along as a 'witness' of the discovery.(I agree,and thus,JR 'finds' her at 1pm,making a beeline for the basement as soon as LA says to look around some more).

Why did the killer want JBR's body out of the house? Because sufficient time before the discovery/sufficient decomposition would have made it impossible for sexual abuse to be uncovered. But the killer didn't make the Susan Smith mistake, and therefore we're still talking about this crime ten years later.

I totally agree.The rest of the staging was done just in case she was found.Remember,JR didn't know if a scent dog would be brought in or not,and he sure didn't insist one was.

 

[UKGuy]

I think it's possible she was sexually assaulted 2x that night...the last being a staged assault to cover past abuse.

JMO8778,

Quite possibly, since there is no real need for anyone to stage a sexual assault based on prior chronic molestation alone, since nothing can be proved e.g. maybe someone at her pageants molested her?

So the necessity to stage a sexual assault must surely be based on assuming that just prior to her death JonBenet had been sexually molested?

This knowledge is what ties both parents together and causes them both to agree to perpetrate such callous staging, then defend each other postmortem.

An accident is simply that and requires no staging, you do not receive the death penalty for an accident.

Now a sexual assault which precedes JonBenet's death must offer a compelling reason to enact staging, and if you think Patsy constructed most of the wine-cellar crime-scene, including JonBenet's vaginal wound, then she knew all about JonBenet's prior molestation?


.

 

[Solace]

JMO8778,


An accident is simply that and requires no staging, you do not receive the death penalty for an accident.

Actually, you don't receive any penalties in Boulder, so they really should have turned themselves in. But then again, they would have to explain why their daughter's head is split clean open and how high that chair was that she fell off of. The only way I can see that happening is if JonBenet had placed herself on a chair on top of a banister at the top of the stairs and fell off. Other than that, it is going to be pretty hard to explain.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Quite possibly, since there is no real need for anyone to stage a sexual assault based on prior chronic molestation alone, since nothing can be proved e.g. maybe someone at her pageants molested her?

but obv. someone didn't,they knew it and needed to cover for it.

IF there wasn't prior abuse,then I think the staged assault was to make it appear she'd been abducted and assaulted by a pedo.
But I have a real problem with that scenrio,since the RN and the ligature 'beheading' would have been enough to account for her death.Why bother to throw that in? It's just more nonsense,and it seems very 'out of place'...b/c
now there is a 'SFF', kidnapping,killing pedo who is angry at JR (over a lousy $118,000),and who appears to be Merrick and friends (from the likes of the RN).It's just too much.

So the necessity to stage a sexual assault must surely be based on assuming that just prior to her death JonBenet had been sexually molested?

prior to or sometime bf,yes.

This knowledge is what ties both parents together and causes them both to agree to perpetrate such callous staging, then defend each other postmortem.

An accident is simply that and requires no staging, you do not receive the death penalty for an accident.

Now a sexual assault which precedes JonBenet's death must offer a compelling reason to enact staging, and if you think Patsy constructed most of the wine-cellar crime-scene, including JonBenet's vaginal wound, then she knew all about JonBenet's prior molestation?


.

I don't think Patsy did it all..I think she had some help from JR on a lot of it.

 

[coloradokares]

JMO8778,


An accident is simply that and requires no staging, you do not receive the death penalty for an accident.

Actually, you don't receive any penalties in Boulder, so they really should have turned themselves in. But then again, they would have to explain why their daughter's head is split clean open and how high that chair was that she fell off of. The only way I can see that happening is if JonBenet had placed herself on a chair on top of a banister at the top of the stairs and fell off. Other than that, it is going to be pretty hard to explain.

I dont think with the skull split and a possibility of chronic sexual abuse they trusted they would get off so the spin went to hyper speed

 

[Solace]

I dont think with the skull split and a possibility of chronic sexual abuse they trusted they would get off so the spin went to hyper speed

I halfway agree with you Colorado. I think the fact that her skull was split was enough.

 

[Dru]

Dru, on what forensic evidence do you base your belief that the vaginal wound was done within one hour of the head blow at the longest? On Dr. Wright's opinion as to how long she would have survived with this kind of brain injury?

Actually, SuperDave had a post some time ago which I thought was very good on this question. Looking at several different things, SD came up with the "twenty minutes to one hour" survival time, IIRC. I'll try to find the post, but it was very convincing.

I think it was in a discussion about whether the head blow or the strangulation came first--essentially, I think, it was pointed out that the head blow could have preceded the strangulation by as much as an hour, but the medical evidence didn't appear to support a scenario where the strangulation came before the head blow.

In other words, JBR could have been strangled and hit on the head simultaneously, except that the bleeding in the brain seems to contradict this. And, in fact, the vaginal wound contradicts this too, since it appears to have been inflicted after JBR was unconscious but before she was dead.

But if the head blow was inflicted first, the window of time based on the bleeding in the brain and other things seems to indicate that an hour was the maximum amount of time that passed before the strangulation occurred.

I'll look for SuperDave's post.

 

[Dru]

Jmpo, but I don't think Patsy would have bought that story from John. She would have smelled a rat instantly, for it would have been only too obvious what John was up to.
Also, them sending Burke away alone to the Whites would have been incredibly risky too, as he might talk. They would have seen to it that one of them stayed near Burke all the time. jmo

It's possible that PR didn't buy it, but by the time JR told her about it all it would be too late to start raising objections--she'd be in things up to her neck. Besides, I've always thought that one of her answers re: JBR and abuse involving JR was weird--something along the lines of "I know he didn't do anything, because Nedra was sleeping in the other bed in JBR's room, and you know JR's not going to do anything with her there," NOT "Oh, no, he'd never do that." Does anybody remember that, or know where I can find it?

As for sending BR away, why not? If things happened even remotely like my theory, and PR thought even for a minute that BR might be responsible, then I think she would want to get him out of the house, so he wouldn't inadvertently blurt things out to the police--especially if PR thought that BR didn't realize what he'd done!

 

[JMO8778]

I dont think with the skull split and a possibility of chronic sexual abuse they trusted they would get off so the spin went to hyper speed

I agree.It seems they were very anxious to stage a scenerio and get her out of the house asap,even though for whatever reason,they didn't follow up on it.

 

[JMO8778]

It's possible that PR didn't buy it, but by the time JR told her about it all it would be too late to start raising objections--she'd be in things up to her neck. Besides, I've always thought that one of her answers re: JBR and abuse involving JR was weird--something along the lines of "I know he didn't do anything, because Nedra was sleeping in the other bed in JBR's room, and you know JR's not going to do anything with her there," NOT "Oh, no, he'd never do that." Does anybody remember that, or know where I can find it?

As for sending BR away, why not? If things happened even remotely like my theory, and PR thought even for a minute that BR might be responsible, then I think she would want to get him out of the house, so he wouldn't inadvertently blurt things out to the police--especially if PR thought that BR didn't realize what he'd done!

something else crossed my mind..what if Patsy did it,staged the whole thing,then was too afraid to go thru with getting her body out of the house by herself,so she makes it look like BR did it,then goes and gets JR to help w/ getting her out of the house?Then JR says,no,that's too risky,and Patsy tells him about the vag. wound she staged to make it look like a pedo did it..JR says,no,that's got to go bc then it will look like *he did it.so he wipes,redresses and covers her,then they write the RN.Remember that JR was very angry that morning,yelled at BR and sent him back to bed...like he hadn't been up yet,and he wanted LE to SEE that he was still in bed.Then later he gets angry bc BR was questioned by LE at the White's (it's in DOI).He should have been ever so grateful if there was an intruder !
Maybe JR was in denial that PR did it herself?

 

[UKGuy]

Actually, SuperDave had a post some time ago which I thought was very good on this question. Looking at several different things, SD came up with the "twenty minutes to one hour" survival time, IIRC. I'll try to find the post, but it was very convincing.

I think it was in a discussion about whether the head blow or the strangulation came first--essentially, I think, it was pointed out that the head blow could have preceded the strangulation by as much as an hour, but the medical evidence didn't appear to support a scenario where the strangulation came before the head blow.

In other words, JBR could have been strangled and hit on the head simultaneously, except that the bleeding in the brain seems to contradict this. And, in fact, the vaginal wound contradicts this too, since it appears to have been inflicted after JBR was unconscious but before she was dead.

But if the head blow was inflicted first, the window of time based on the bleeding in the brain and other things seems to indicate that an hour was the maximum amount of time that passed before the strangulation occurred.

I'll look for SuperDave's post.

Dru,

In general the evidence is ambiguous, and since we do not have access to Coroner Meyer's autopsy notes, we cannot be definitive.

What we can agree upon is that JonBenet died from hypoxia, there was no other cause of death.

The autopsy itemises asphyxiation as the cause of death.

Whether JonBenet was strangled first then whacked on the head, or whacked on the head then strangled, or both occurred simultaneously, does not matter , except to fit a particular theory, all three cases will result in the same cause of death.

The forensic evidence supports the view that JonBenet was manually strangled, ligature strangled, and whacked on the head, although possibly not in that order.

Coroner Meyer states that the cause of death was asphyxia by strangulation so I assume that the head injury fits between the manual strangulation and the ligature strangulation or the manual strangulation and the head injury were simultaneous, followed later by the ligature strangulation, the latter sequence being consistent with a PDI rage theory.

In other words, JBR could have been strangled and hit on the head simultaneously, except that the bleeding in the brain seems to contradict this. And, in fact, the vaginal wound contradicts this too, since it appears to have been inflicted after JBR was unconscious but before she was dead.

Bleeding on the brain does not contradict this, since 1. she is still alive, 2. there is blood loss in the head, so her blood pressure drops, but does not have to stop pumping?

If it did then there would be no need to apply a final ligature strangulation?

So you can assume her vaginal wound was inflicted prior to her being ligature strangled.

Similarly you can make a case that her vaginal wound may have been inflicted earlier?

Another aspect is the removal of forensic evidence e.g. with such a serious head injury, its safe to assume that JonBenet was bleeding or seeping mucous from her nose and/or mouth, so where did it go? Did it contaminate any of her clothing, was she wearing any?



.

 

[UKGuy]

It's possible that PR didn't buy it, but by the time JR told her about it all it would be too late to start raising objections--she'd be in things up to her neck. Besides, I've always thought that one of her answers re: JBR and abuse involving JR was weird--something along the lines of "I know he didn't do anything, because Nedra was sleeping in the other bed in JBR's room, and you know JR's not going to do anything with her there," NOT "Oh, no, he'd never do that." Does anybody remember that, or know where I can find it?

As for sending BR away, why not? If things happened even remotely like my theory, and PR thought even for a minute that BR might be responsible, then I think she would want to get him out of the house, so he wouldn't inadvertently blurt things out to the police--especially if PR thought that BR didn't realize what he'd done!

Besides, I've always thought that one of her answers re: JBR and abuse involving JR was weird--something along the lines of "I know he didn't do anything, because Nedra was sleeping in the other bed in JBR's room, and you know JR's not going to do anything with her there," NOT "Oh, no, he'd never do that." Does anybody remember that, or know where I can find it?

Dru,

This occurred at some media event, a talking heads show, or public news conference, I forget where, but Patsy is publicly defending John against allegations of molesting JonBenet

I think it was when Patsy was away having cancer treatment or something, so was JonBenet not vulnerable etc?

Compare that with her reaction when she is told by the investigators that they have forensic evidence that suggests not only was JonBenet sexually molested the night of her death, but that it was chronic and had occurred in the recent past.


.

 

[rashomon]

What we can agree upon is that JonBenet died from hypoxia, there was no other cause of death.

You are wrong on that. As has been pointed out countless times here, the head injury was named as the cause of death too. From Dr. Meyer's report:

CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION:
Cause of death of this six year old
female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
trauma.

 

[rashomon]

Actually, SuperDave had a post some time ago which I thought was very good on this question. Looking at several different things, SD came up with the "twenty minutes to one hour" survival time, IIRC. I'll try to find the post, but it was very convincing.

I think it was in a discussion about whether the head blow or the strangulation came first--essentially, I think, it was pointed out that the head blow could have preceded the strangulation by as much as an hour, but the medical evidence didn't appear to support a scenario where the strangulation came before the head blow.

In other words, JBR could have been strangled and hit on the head simultaneously, except that the bleeding in the brain seems to contradict this. And, in fact, the vaginal wound contradicts this too, since it appears to have been inflicted after JBR was unconscious but before she was dead.

But if the head blow was inflicted first, the window of time based on the bleeding in the brain and other things seems to indicate that an hour was the maximum amount of time that passed before the strangulation occurred.

I'll look for SuperDave's post.

Thanks Dru. Maybe this is where SuperDave got his info from - the article in which the famous forensic pathologist Dr. Wright said that 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the head blow and the stranguation (bold type mine):

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...ey/0716jon.htm
Pathologist: No doubt of JonBenet sex assault
Girl was hit on head before she was strangled, expert says
By Charlie Brennan
%%byline%%By Charlie Brennan
Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer


BOULDER -- JonBenet Ramsey was sexually assaulted, suffered a tremendous blow to the head and was strangled as much as an hour later, a respected forensic pathologist said Tuesday.

Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine, reviewed JonBenet's autopsy report Tuesday at the request of the Rocky Mountain News.

''She's been sexually assaulted,'' said Wright, who served as the medical examiner in Broward County, Fla., 13 years.

"She's had vaginal penetration.''

Wright -- who has done consulting for the FBI and worked on the Elvis Presley autopsy -- joined a growing chorus of out-of-town experts who see sexual assault as part of the unsolved Christmas night murder.

The experts reviewed the autopsy report released Monday by a judge's order.

"I think there's some kind of sexual assault,'' said Dr. Robert Kirschner, formerly deputy chief medical examiner in Cook County, Ill. He is now a clinical associate in department of pathology and pediatrics at the University of Chicago.

"There is evidence of acute injury'' in the vaginal area, Kirschner said.

Wright, whose best-known case as Broward Medical Examiner was the unsolved abduction and murder of 6-year-old Adam Walsh in Hollywood, Fla., was surprised to hear some experts are uncertain whether Boulder's slain beauty princess was sexually assaulted.

"Somebody's injured her vagina,'' said Wright. "And she's tied up. Doesn't that make it involuntary sexual battery?''

Wright said the presence of a small amount of food in JonBenet's small intestine -- possibly pineapple fragments -- indicates she died well after her final meal, most likely late at night or early in the morning.

The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said.

"She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled,'' said Wright. "That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.''

He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.

The reason he's so sure, said Wright, is that details revealed about the brain injury, "the swelling, the bleeding here and there, they take a while to happen.''

And that wouldn't have happened, he said, if she was already dead.
"I think, probably, the head injury came first, because the strangulation resulted in petechial (pinpoint) hemorrhages'' in areas such as the eyelids, Kirschner said.

"I think she died when she was strangled. The cerebral hemorrhaging and bruising of the brain did occur first. But she was still alive when strangled.''
Wright noted that the presence of "birefringent (shiny) foreign material'' in JonBenet's vaginal tract could be consistent with someone penetrating her while wearing rubber gloves.

That, combined with prior disclosures that someone appeared to wipe down the body, is inconsistent with a typical child sex offender.

"It's not the typical pattern of somebody who decides they like having sex with young girls,'' said Wright.

"This looks like something different. If you're into having sex with kids, it's usually not so subtle.''

Wright was particularly intrigued by the girl's empty bladder. Evacuation of the bladder often occurs at the time of death, he said, but it's usually only partial.

Complete emptying of the bladder, he said, would be consistent with her having done so intentionally while awake, near the time of the crime, or a bed-wetting.July 16, 1997

If the head blow came well before the strangulation, an intruder scenario is highly unlikely. Unless IDIs believe that the intruder was a 'necrophile' who enjoyed garotting dead victims. Very implausible scenario imo.
In short, everything points to the garrote scene as being staged by the parents.
Another thing which points to the strangulation as being staged is that there is no evidence whatsoever of internal injuries to JB's neck, as would occur in strangulations. No damage to the hyoid bone, no damage to the thyroid, no contusions, no bruising - nothing. Only petechiae around her neck where the cord was tied. It seems to me that the stager of the scene, believing JB already dead, merely tied a knot around her neck and that was it. Wouldn't violent pulling at the ligature (by a person who wanted to make sure that JonBenet would die from the stranglation) have caused inner neck wounds?

 

[UKGuy]

You are wrong on that. As has been pointed out countless times here, the head injury was named as the cause of death too. From Dr. Meyer's report:

rashomon,

You are wrong on that.

Am I?

Are you sure you read what I posted correctly, are you a native english reader?

Please explain using any available forensic evidence why you consider there is any other cause of death other than hypoxia?


.