Ned's Final Theory-Lou Smit are you still reading here?

[Charlie]

Yay my exams are over i can now devote some quality time here, this thread is moving like hot cakes.

Ned: I agree with you thats i likely the crime scene photos were taken after the house became a crime scene which was after 1pm.

What i dont understand is at 1pm when John and fleet decided to search the house both went into the train room (as fleet points out to john the broken glass and john explains to fleet about the how he broke it during the previous summer when he was locked out of the house) the two men look around the train then both exit and enter the boiler room en route to the wine celler where John opens the door and before turning the light on sees JonBenet.

Ok Now if the crime scene photos were taken of the blocked chair after JB was found after 1pm, this would mean that when John and Fleet both went into the train room one of them replaced the chair in front on the train room door when the exited just before going into the boiler room.

Hope that made sense.

fleet should rememeber encounting the chair at the train room upon entry and again upon exiting when John replaced it.

So far we know that john said he encountered the blocked chair between 7-9 and thats when he moved it, went in train room and came out and replaced chair again. But If the crime scene photos were taken at 1pm this would mean John did this little chair routine TWICE. what the hell is that all about?

I DONT GET THIS CASE ANYMORE, NOTHING MAKES ANY SENSE ARGGG :banghead:

If The ramseys police interviews are public record why are fleets still locked up?

 

[Charlie]

I agree with ned on another point also, thats its unlikely JB wet the bed that night as her long johns were soaked through.

I believe this because if JB wet the bed and her underwear was replaced why would her long johns be kept on. Its more likely she was dry and her underwear was replaced during the staging, then her bladder released.

Does anyone know if JB when she was feeling ill on xmas day, had a nap? I'm thinking possibly this could explain why JB was awake quite late on the 25th eating pinapple because she had a nap earlier in the day and her sleep cycle was outta wack.

 

[Chrishope]

See this would be the exact thing I am talking about. FW is given reasonable excuses as possible explanations. Yet for JR the same people will go out of their way to make up the story that the evil criminal mastermind JR moved the body to the room later in the day.

Darkness is a reasonable explanation for not seeing something. FW didn't turn on the switch - at least that's what he says.

If you want to believe FW killed JB, and lied about not seeing her body in the wine cellar, that's fine, but then you still need to answer my earlier questions; - why would FW leave a fake ransom note? -Why would FW engage in staging of the scene? All he had to do is kill her and go home.

Another question, why would FW, even if he's the killer, hesitate to find JB's body in the wine cellar ? He was called to the house by PR. He was asked, as a family friend to help out in a time of crisis. There would have been nothing in the least bit suspicious about him finding the body.

That's the thing about IDIs, they never try to think through their intruder theories and ask why the intruder would do these things. As for moving the body, that would also be a very logical explanation for FW not having seen it - wouldn't it? I'm not saying the body was moved, I'm just saying that if it wasn't in the wine room at 6:30, that would account for FW not seeing it. No one is going out of their way to make up a story - it simply fits with what happened. FW didn't see the body. JR was down there sometime that morning, after FW and Officer French. It does make sense.

Please answer my questions about FW.

 

[Chrishope]

Yay my exams are over i can now devote some quality time here, this thread is moving like hot cakes.

Ned: I agree with you thats i likely the crime scene photos were taken after the house became a crime scene which was after 1pm.

What i dont understand is at 1pm when John and fleet decided to search the house both went into the train room (as fleet points out to john the broken glass and john explains to fleet about the how he broke it during the previous summer when he was locked out of the house) the two men look around the train then both exit and enter the boiler room en route to the wine celler where John opens the door and before turning the light on sees JonBenet.

Ok Now if the crime scene photos were taken of the blocked chair after JB was found after 1pm, this would mean that when John and Fleet both went into the train room one of them replaced the chair in front on the train room door when the exited just before going into the boiler room.

Hope that made sense.

fleet should rememeber encounting the chair at the train room upon entry and again upon exiting when John replaced it.

So far we know that john said he encountered the blocked chair between 7-9 and thats when he moved it, went in train room and came out and replaced chair again. But If the crime scene photos were taken at 1pm this would mean John did this little chair routine TWICE. what the hell is that all about?

I DONT GET THIS CASE ANYMORE, NOTHING MAKES ANY SENSE ARGGG :banghead:

If The ramseys police interviews are public record why are fleets still locked up?

Except that when JR came up from the basement at 1:05 he was carrying JB. I suppose he could have moved the chair back with his foot, but it seems unlikely to me that he'd have bothered, what with holding his dead daughter in his arms. Besides, he preceeded FW. So, if the chair was there when they went down at 1, then either of them could have moved it to go in, but only FW was likely to have moved it back into place.

So, what we really need is to know what FW says about the chair, both at 6:30 and at 1. Note too that if the chair was there when JR went down in the morning, it would have to have been there when FW/oficer French went down earlier. Not only would one of them have had to move it, one of them would have had to move it back again - I can't really see why they'd do that. I'd also expect that Officer French would have reported having to move a chair blocking a door. So far as I know, he didn't.

When we say the crime scene photos were taken after 1, that simply is the earliest possible time. But more realistically, they weren't taken for hours afterward.

 

[Eagle1]

I agree with ned on another point also, thats its unlikely JB wet the bed that night as her long johns were soaked through.

I believe this because if JB wet the bed and her underwear was replaced why would her long johns be kept on. Its more likely she was dry and her underwear was replaced during the staging, then her bladder released.

Does anyone know if JB when she was feeling ill on xmas day, had a nap? I'm thinking possibly this could explain why JB was awake quite late on the 25th eating pinapple because she had a nap earlier in the day and her sleep cycle was outta wack.

Yes, I think the reason PW made up a plate for JonBenet was that she was lying down up in Daphne's room, not sure exactly where I read that. Also that she'd fallen asleep in the car on the way home from the Whites'.

 

[UKGuy]

UK,thank you so much,that makes a lot of sense,and I do get it.That was my feeling all along...that the poor child was intentionally badly beaten; no way it was an accident.It seems other descriptions just give the feeling that she had only a couple of injuries...the head wound and being strangled,well,plus the abrasions.I can only hope she passed out quickly and didn't feel much pain,but with the scream heard and the position of her arms,she must have felt something.It's so sad.

JMO8778,

This is the interesting aspect to other peoples theories, they tend to only include the evidence that supports their theory. e.g. Lou Smit tells you all about the garrote and ligature, that the intruder has a sexual fetish, but fails to mention JonBenet's hair being tied into the garrote handle or the fixed knot used, making it unusable as an EA device. Also Steve Thomas promotes his toilet rage theory, without explaining how JonBenet's size-12's become wet through, if we assume they were placed on her after her death, or why the parents leave JonBenet wearing urine soaked longjohns and underwear, contradicting the rationale behind the wine-cellar staging?

The next favorite twist is the sequence head blow , strangulation, or vice-versa, why does it matter, that both occurred is enough to tell you it was more than an accident. imo many people have a mental block that goes like this: I can understand a parent accidently causing the death of a beautiful daughter, but no parent would deliberately kill their beautiful daughter, ergo it must have been an accident, not intended, and this is what is being covered up?

The wine cellar staging along with the ransom note was constructed to fool us, both were a desparate attempt to coverup JonBenet's murder. I suspect not initially finding JonBenet's corpse was the catalyst towards the no indictment result, along with the hiring of Lou Smit, regular appearances on the media and of course the assistance of Michael Tracey via his fairy-tale documentaries, masquerading as fact.

The point being as long as you focus on the wine-cellar, ransom-note, sequence of homicide assaults etc you will make no progress. This was the intended purpose of the latter items, they are meant to fling you off course, send you down another road, distract you from where JonBenet was actually killed and mask the reasons why.

JonBenet's death was no accident, since you do not hide an accident with a murder, which has even more serious consequences. There is more to JonBenet's death than first appears, and the explanation is likely to be found in the dysfunctional relationships formed by the Ramseys.


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[UKGuy]

It strikes me odd that two people went into the basement shortly after the 911 call and could not locate a missing childs body laying in a room 5 feet from them.

4sure,

Some people think it was not there, but hidden elsewhere, but in all probability it was in the wine-cellar, wrapped in blankets.

Only one person, Fleet White, actually looked, he had minimal light, and JonBenet's corpse was to one side.

Not finding JonBenet's body reasonably quickly was the turning point in this case, for to this point the Ramsey's were flying by prayer.

Also for those that doubt John Ramsey's involvement e.g. he rose from bed and dealt with the situation on an ad hoc basis. The manner in which he found JonBenet should dispel any doubt.


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[JMO8778]

I agree with ned on another point also, thats its unlikely JB wet the bed that night as her long johns were soaked through.

I believe this because if JB wet the bed and her underwear was replaced why would her long johns be kept on. Its more likely she was dry and her underwear was replaced during the staging, then her bladder released.

Does anyone know if JB when she was feeling ill on xmas day, had a nap? I'm thinking possibly this could explain why JB was awake quite late on the 25th eating pinapple because she had a nap earlier in the day and her sleep cycle was outta wack.

I think it was said she was sick and stayed in her room a lot that day,with her friends coming to see her there.In DOI JR says she wanted to take her bike out that morning,and also that afternoon she asked him to help her around the block with it...yet nobody saw her out that day.I suspect she didn't go out at all as she likely didn't feel well.

 

[JMO8778]

If The ramseys police interviews are public record why are fleets still locked up?

Because it was too incriminating for the R's?Sounds like somebody is doing them a favor,what with the 911 call and all, too.

 

[Cypros]

Except that when JR came up from the basement at 1:05 he was carrying JB. I suppose he could have moved the chair back with his foot, but it seems unlikely to me that he'd have bothered, what with holding his dead daughter in his arms. Besides, he preceeded FW. So, if the chair was there when they went down at 1, then either of them could have moved it to go in, but only FW was likely to have moved it back into place.

So, what we really need is to know what FW says about the chair, both at 6:30 and at 1. Note too that if the chair was there when JR went down in the morning, it would have to have been there when FW/oficer French went down earlier. Not only would one of them have had to move it, one of them would have had to move it back again - I can't really see why they'd do that. I'd also expect that Officer French would have reported having to move a chair blocking a door. So far as I know, he didn't.

When we say the crime scene photos were taken after 1, that simply is the earliest possible time. But more realistically, they weren't taken for hours afterward.

Nobody had to move the chair to get to JBR's body. The chair blocked the door to the train room. JBR was in the "wine cellar". If you look at the basement floor plan you will see that they are in different parts of the basement and that you do not go through the train room to get to the wine cellar. The chair was not blocking access to JBR's body.

 

[rashomon]

See this would be the exact thing I am talking about. FW is given reasonable excuses as possible explanations. Yet for JR the same people will go out of their way to make up the story that the evil criminal mastermind JR moved the body to the room later in the day.

But the point is this:
Suppose it was pitch-black in the windowless wine cellar (and according to Steve Thomas' later experiments, it indeed was!), and therefore Fleet White hadn't seen anything,
then why on earth did John "see" JB's body at once when looking in the wine cellar before he even put the lights on? That's what is so suspicious about John's behavior.
In terms of John moving the body later in the day: I don't think John would have dared to that with the police already in the house. Far too risky.

 

[UKGuy]

JMO8778,

I do have one q here..her wrists were loosely tied..is it possible then that the extra loops were simply used to hook her loosely around a nearby object,as part of staging?

Upstairs, lying on a bed, possibly, but there is not much down in the wine-cellar close-by to attach onto, anyway the wine-cellar is staged evidence!

Yea,that's why I don't get anyone saying this was AE play..I would think not,since likely in that case, her arms would have fallen waist side and not have been found over her head if she'd clawed at the rope.Also underneath her fingernails would have been her fresh dna,but even JR admits there was male dna (degraded though) under her nails.So which is it JR?
As well as I would think someone doing AE would do it on *themselves,not JB.Granted,I don't know a lot about it,but that sounds absurd.

There was no EA activity that is the imaginings of Lou Smit and his retainer John Ramsey. What is interesting, could the EA proposal have originated from JR, suggesting he may be a practictioner e.g AEA?

Do you have any opinion on what the abrasions came from?When I first saw the autopsy photos,I thought it could have been done from something hot,like a cigarette,or something used for a fireplace...but they aren't burns,so I don't buy the stun gun nonsense either.

Well imo the alleged stun-gun bruises are contusions caused ether by JonBenet being slammed onto a projecting surface, or by the use of some blunt object. The latter as per Occam being the simplest explanation. It also might explain the contusions on her legs, that is consider JonBenet in the fetal position, using her arms and legs to protect herself, whilst someone repeatedly whacks her?

These contusions are similar to those arising from rapid pressure bruising, formed from clotted blood, they start out as dark or reddish shadowing close to the surface of the skin. Since JonBenet was dead the normal change in color observed with most bruising never took place, usually to green and yellow, this like her head fracture and rigor mortis is another forensic indicator. Making this assumption regarding these contusions, suggests, contradicting the rage theorists again, that the initial assault may have been on her body, eventually concentrating upon her head?

True,I've never tried to get into the specifics of that,other than it being apparent JR lied,seemingly to account for his prints.I'm not sure it's all that imprt,other then knowing he lied?

I doubt it is, after everyone and their dog had searched through the house, e.g. part of the plan, then washed and cleaned up in the kitchen, who can prove what was where. I suspect John was trying to suggest to his interviewers that anything found out of place at the crime-scene was not due to him, since he tried to replace things as he found them. e.g. unlike Fleet White ...



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[Chrishope]

Nobody had to move the chair to get to JBR's body. The chair blocked the door to the train room. JBR was in the "wine cellar". If you look at the basement floor plan you will see that they are in different parts of the basement and that you do not go through the train room to get to the wine cellar. The chair was not blocking access to JBR's body.

This is true, but they checked the train room too, if I recall correctly, so they had to have gone through the door. (Wasn't it at this time that JR told FW he'd broken the window when locked out months before?) The door to the train room and the door to the boiler room - which is in front of the wine cellar- are right next to each other. So, they'd have to have at least seen the chair. It still remains that FW/French don't report moving the chair when they searched that morning, then JR goes down there in the morning, then JR and FW go down again at 1, and neither reports moving the chair, or even seeing it. So, apparently, it isn't in the way in the morning, but it's there -supposedly- in some crime scene photos.

 

[icedtea4me]

But the point is this:
Suppose it was pitch-black in the windowless wine cellar (and according to Steve Thomas' later experiments, it indeed was!), and therefore Fleet White hadn't seen anything,
then why on earth did John "see" JB's body at once when looking in the wine cellar before he even put the lights on? That's what is so suspicious about John's behavior.

At 1:00 p.m. there would have been more light shining into the room, as opposed to when it was before 6:30 a.m. And it could be said that he may have looked more thoroughly around, rather than just possibly straight ahead.

In terms of John moving the body later in the day: I don't think John would have dared to that with the police already in the house. Far too risky.

I agree.


-Tea

 

[Chrishope]

There was no EA activity that is the imaginings of Lou Smit and his retainer John Ramsey. What is interesting, could the EA proposal have originated from JR, suggesting he may be a practictioner e.g AEA?

It was also Dr. Wecht's opinion that the garrotte was an AE device. He points out that it could have pinched her vagus nerve, stopping the heart and lungs. As Wecht, had pointed out, and has also been mentioned by yourself and other posters, there was not serious internal damage to the neck as would be expected by ligature strangulation.

My understanding of these devices is that they should be able to be loosened easily, as the objective is to restrict oxygen temporarily, not to kill. Unfortunately death does sometimes occur during so called "breath play". The garrotte used on JB wasn't easily loosened. The lack of damage to the neck, from the ligature, indicates she was already dead when it was applied. IMO.

 

[Chrishope]

But the point is this:
Suppose it was pitch-black in the windowless wine cellar (and according to Steve Thomas' later experiments, it indeed was!), and therefore Fleet White hadn't seen anything,
then why on earth did John "see" JB's body at once when looking in the wine cellar before he even put the lights on? That's what is so suspicious about John's behavior.
In terms of John moving the body later in the day: I don't think John would have dared to that with the police already in the house. Far too risky.

I don't think the body was moved, but not because it was too risky. I think the body wasn't moved because the basement had already been searched by officer French - except that he neglected to open the wine room door. I suppose it's possible she was placed somewhere else and simply overlooked, but it doesn't seem likely.

I think darkness is a very reasonable explanation for why FW didn't see her.

 

[UKGuy]

It was also Dr. Wecht's opinion that the garrotte was an AE device. He points out that it could have pinched her vagus nerve, stopping the heart and lungs. As Wecht, had pointed out, and has also been mentioned by yourself and other posters, there was not serious internal damage to the neck as would be expected by ligature strangulation.

My understanding of these devices is that they should be able to be loosened easily, as the objective is to restrict oxygen temporarily, not to kill. Unfortunately death does sometimes occur during so called "breath play". The garrotte used on JB wasn't easily loosened. The lack of damage to the neck, from the ligature, indicates she was already dead when it was applied. IMO.

Chrishope,

It was also Dr. Wecht's opinion that the garrotte was an AE device. He points out that it could have pinched her vagus nerve, stopping the heart and lungs. As Wecht, had pointed out, and has also been mentioned by yourself and other posters, there was not serious internal damage to the neck as would be expected by ligature strangulation.

The reason its simply Dr. Wecht's opinion is because he offers no evidence to support his opinion. Whereas there is documented and pictorial evidence which demonstrates that the garrote and ligature could never function as an AE device!

imo The asphyxiation sequence was as follows: manual strangulation, ligature strangulation, garrote affixed to the ligature and tightened! All separate and distinct steps.

The ligature left no bruising along its circumference, also JonBenet's hyoid was intact, whereas the area beneath this has bruising indicative of a manual strangulation. Another indicator of asphyxiation is swelling of the tongue, Coroner Meyer does not seem to document this, suggesting her head blow followed an ineffective strangulation?

JonBenet's vagus nerve, may have been pinched just as incidentally during her manual strangulation.

The lack of damage to the neck, from the ligature, indicates she was already dead when it was applied. IMO.

Which patently suggests it was never used for the alleged EA activity.

Professional's such as Dr. Wecht are paid large sums of money to opine on their specialist subjects, whatever they state is always retractable since it was only ever an opinion.


To recap the garrote which is a spanish word for a wooden rod, e.g. paintbrush handle, was applied last, the ligature, allegedly purchased locally, may have been used thugee style, but initially, as per the bruising, she was manually strangled!

Some consider her skull fracture was her killers final attempt at finishing JonBenet off.

The other contusions on her body, allegedly stun-gun markings, are the result of repeated blows by some blunt force object.



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[Chrishope]

Chrishope,


The reason its simply Dr. Wecht's opinion is because he offers no evidence to support his opinion. Whereas there is documented and pictorial evidence which demonstrates that the garrote and ligature could never function as an AE device!

imo The asphyxiation sequence was as follows: manual strangulation, ligature strangulation, garrote affixed to the ligature and tightened! All separate and distinct steps.

The ligature left no bruising along its circumference, also JonBenet's hyoid was intact, whereas the area beneath this has bruising indicative of a manual strangulation. Another indicator of asphyxiation is swelling of the tongue, Coroner Meyer does not seem to document this, suggesting her head blow followed an ineffective strangulation?

JonBenet's vagus nerve, may have been pinched just as incidentally during her manual strangulation.


Which patently suggests it was never used for the alleged EA activity.

Professional's such as Dr. Wecht are paid large sums of money to opine on their specialist subjects, whatever they state is always retractable since it was only ever an opinion.


To recap the garrote which is a spanish word for a wooden rod, e.g. paintbrush handle, was applied last, the ligature, allegedly purchased locally, may have been used thugee style, but initially, as per the bruising, she was manually strangled!

Some consider her skull fracture was her killers final attempt at finishing JonBenet off.

The other contusions on her body, allegedly stun-gun markings, are the result of repeated blows by some blunt force object.



.

I wasn't agreeing with Wecht, merely pointing out that it wasn't just LS's idea.

Interesting point that manual stangulation could have pinched the vagus nerve too.

Why would manual stangulation not damage the neck muscles? What I'm getting at is ligature strangulation would ordinarily leave more damage to the strap muscles. Meyer reports no hemoraging of the strap muscles. I guess if the vagus nerve had been pinched that would explain it. If the vagus nerve wasn't pinched, then we still have asphyxiation by strangulation, but w/o damage to the strap muscles.

 

[UKGuy]

I wasn't agreeing with Wecht, merely pointing out that it wasn't just LS's idea.

Interesting point that manual stangulation could have pinched the vagus nerve too.

Why would manual stangulation not damage the neck muscles? What I'm getting at is ligature strangulation would ordinarily leave more damage to the strap muscles. Meyer reports no hemoraging of the strap muscles. I guess if the vagus nerve had been pinched that would explain it. If the vagus nerve wasn't pinched, then we still have asphyxiation by strangulation, but w/o damage to the strap muscles.

Chrishope,

A manual strangulation will usually damage the neck muscles? In most cases the hyoid is broken which reinforces the assumption about an asphyxiation.

JonBenet's underlying neck muscles were damaged this can be seen in the autopsy photographs, the bruising results from underlying muscle damage and surface abrasion.


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[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

A manual strangulation will usually damage the neck muscles? In most cases the hyoid is broken which reinforces the assumption about an asphyxiation.

JonBenet's underlying neck muscles were damaged this can be seen in the autopsy photographs, the bruising results from underlying muscle damage and surface abrasion.


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http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet08.gif

Page 8 of the autopsy report says there is no hemoraging of the strap muscles and no damage to the hyoid. Also no abnormal color to the tounge.

We do see bruising to the skin in the autopsy photos.