GUILTY Netherlands - Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 #4

[SouthAussie]

Maddening. O how maddening! Every relative or reporter is able to reach the location of the crash and walk around for hours and hours, but somehow nothing can be done.
The Dutch Police who went searching were volunteers! Even volunteers were stopped!
What are we paying this government for? (-> nothing)


:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :stormingmad:

RSBM

I agree this is so maddening!! We have special forces that have the talents and skills to quietly go in and get those remains out. Other people have located them for us .. we know where they are, or can be advised where they are .. let's go and get them!

:maddening:

 

[ZaZara]

RSBM

I agree this is so maddening!! We have special forces that have the talents and skills to quietly go in and get those remains out. Other people have located them for us .. we know where they are, or can be advised where they are .. let's go and get them!

:maddening:

I sincerely hope that the press will make Mr Rutte's life miserable when he comes to Australia.
Let them call his bluff .... The Netherlands supposedly have the lead in this investigation, so why is he wrapping everything in bureaucratic tape?
Why not ask the Australians for support of their Special Forces? And we have Special Forces too....

This guy needs some serious shirtfronting, please be blunt!


:gaah:

 

[ZaZara]

DER SPIEGEL INTERVIEW WITH DUTCH MH17 PROSECUTOR WESTERBEKE

MH17-Chefermittler Westerbeke: "Wissen die Russen womöglich mehr?"
Wer schoss Flug MH17 über der Ostukraine ab? Der niederländische Staatsanwalt Fred Westerbeke leitet die internationalen Ermittlungen. Er spricht über geheime Satellitenbilder und eine mögliche Beteiligung des ukrainischen Militärs.

Der Spiegel interviews Chief Prosecutor Westerbeke:
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/just...eber-den-absturz-in-der-ukraine-a-999193.html


Translation:


SPIEGEL ONLINE: Mr. Westerbeke, your job as chief prosecutor sounds hardly solvable: MH17 flight was shot down over a civil war zone, even now, three months later, your crime scene is not accessible for investigators. What gives you hope to be able to bring someone to court someday?

Westerbeke: The Netherlands does not investigate the case all alone. There is a very good cooperation with police and prosecutors, especially in Malaysia, Australia and the Ukraine. BTW, we have been able to gain a lot of experience with similar cases, in connection with the genocide in Rwanda, for example, or with war crimes in Afghanistan. Also in those cases you will find hardly any witnesses, no written documents that could be used as evidence. So as to your question: It is not easy. But we can do it.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: In what period of time?

Westerbeke: Look at Lockerbie ...

SPIEGEL ONLINE: ... the bombing of a Pan Am jumbo in December 1988 with 270 deaths.

Westerbeke: At that time, it took three years before one could name those responsible. I do not mean that it will take such a long time as well in the case of flight MH17, but it requires a long breath.
We will certainly need the whole of next year for our work, and perhaps even longer.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The Federal Intelligence Service BND assumes that pro-Russian separatists have shot down the machine with a surface to air missile. Recently some German parliamentarians were shown corresponding satellite images. Do you know these recordings?

Westerbeke: Unfortunately, we do not know what images this involved concretely. The problem is that there are very many different satellite images: Some of them can be found on the Internet, others come from foreign intelligence agencies.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: High-resolution images, for example from US spy satellites could play a crucial role in the investigation of the case. Did you get those recordings from the Americans?

Westerbeke: We are not sure if we already have everything, or whether there are more - material that may be even more specific. What we possess at present is certainly not enough to draw any conclusions. We remain in contact with the United States to get satellite images.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The downing of flight MH17 is the biggest criminal case in the history of your country, it is said. How many investigators are currently working on this case?

Westerbeke: In The Netherlands alone there are ten prosecutors. Three of them coordinate the investigation, two work at the international level. Two more are responsible for the care of relatives. In addition, there are forensic experts, also around 80 policemen. There are regular meetings with colleagues from Malaysia, Australia and the Ukraine, to share the work.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Because at the crash site fights are going on again and again, so far none of your investigators has been able to go on site, in order to collect debris. That might be important solely to determine the weapon system used. On which traces you rely instead?

Westerbeke: There are the metal fragments that were found in the bodies of the dead and in pieces of luggage. This could be shrapnel from a BUK missile, possibly also parts of the aircraft itself. We analyze this, so far there are no results. We also have some witnesses who were on the spot immediately after the crash. In the Internet we shift through an immense amount of information, we also have various recordings of telephone conversations at our disposal, that were recorded by the Ukrainian police. Some of it is already available online, but we have gotten richer material.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: So far, there is no indisputable evidence?

Westerbeke: Yes. If you look in the newspapers, however, it always looks as if quite clear what happened to the aircraft and who is to blame. But if we really want to bring the perpetrators to justice, we need evidence and more than a recorded phone call from the internet or photos of the crash site. That's why we not only take one scenario into consideration, but several.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What are the scenarios?

Westerbeke: Initially we have taken into consdideration four possible explanations for the crash of Flight MH17: An accident, a terrorist attack, the shooting down by a surface to air missile or an attack by another aircraft. After the publication of the interim report by the Dutch Security OVV ...

SPIEGEL ONLINE: ... where the crash is attributed to a variety of fast flying objects that have punctured the outside of the machine ...

Westerbeke: ... the accident and the terror scenario were dropped. The other two remain.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Moscow circulated for some time, the version, the passenger plane had been shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet. Do you think it possible?

Westerbeke: Based on the available information, the shooting by a ground-to-air missile is in my eyes still the most likely scenario. But we do not close our eyes to the possibility that it might have been different.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: In the OVV report it is stated that no military jets were in the vicinity.

Westerbeke: Right. But this statement is based on information that was available at the time to the OVV. The question is: Do the Russians know possibly more?

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Your Prime Minister Mark Rutte has recently criticized Vladimir Putin because of his lack of support in the MH17 case. What is the role of Russia in the investigation?

Westerbeke: At the moment, not large, since Russia is not part of the investigation team. We are preparing a request for assistance, in which we ask Moscow for information that could be important for us. Among other things, those radar data with which the Russians wanted to prove the presence of a Ukrainian military jet near MH17 after the crash.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: If you actually take into consideration the participation of the Ukrainian Air Force in the shooting of flight MH17 - is it not absurd that Ukraine is involved in the investigation?

Westerbeke: Of course that's a problem. But we cannot investigate without them. I want to make one thing very clear: We have no indications to suggest that Kiev might not be acting completely open with us. They give us all the information that we want.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: In the eastern Ukraine, the winter is coming. Is there any chance that your investigators will make it to the crash site this year?

Westerbeke: At the moment I do not really believe in it. It is there still very dangerous. Therefore, we are working with the OVV on a plan B - if we can not get to the crash site itself, we need the debris brought here by other means.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Assuming that the trial actually takes place one day - where would that be?

Westerbeke: With a possible trial we are not dealing yet. We first want to devote all our energies to finding those responsible for this crime. If The Netherlands were asked, we would certainly be ready to take the suspects to trial here.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Persons unknown have offered a $ 30 million bounty in the case MH17 through a German private investigator. Will you also offer a reward?

Westerbeke: This is being done more often in complicated cases. But currently we have no intention to do so and it will certainly never go up to 30 million. Incidentally, I caution anyone from making transactions with these people: No one knows who they are and what intentions they pursue.





About the person:
Fred Westerbeke, born in 1962, directs at the Dutch public prosecutor, the Department for investigations into terrorism and organized crime at home and abroad. In the case of MH17 he coordinates the criminal prosecution. As part of a joint investigation Commission (JIT) Malaysia, Australia and the Ukraine are also involved in this.


BBM

 

[ZaZara]

On Twitter, I did a search with hashtag #MH17.
I was amazed to see what RT (Russian international news channel) comes up with in their 'summary' of the interview that I just translated.
http://rt.com/news/199891-dutch-investigation-mh17-crash/

If you want to tweet the article, this is the text that is offered with the link:
MH17 might have been shot down from air – chief Dutch investigator — RT News http://rt.com/news/199891-dutch-investigation-mh17-crash/#.VE7QOZSp_kE.twitter


Well folks, we have the original interview here, albeit in translation and I'm glad that we can read with our own eyes what was said and how.


Meanwhile, Dutch politicians and reporters are angry, because the Chief Prosecutor gives more and better information in an interview to a German magazine than the Dutch PM did when when he was summoned to Parliament to give an explanation.


:liar:

 

[SouthAussie]

"In an interview published by German newsmagazine Der Spiegel on Monday, prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the Dutch would ask Moscow to provide the information that had led them to believe a Ukrainian aircraft was nearby.

"Based on the information available, a shooting-down by a ground-to-air missile is the most likely scenario, but we aren't closing our eyes to the possibility that it could have happened differently," Der Spiegel quoted him as saying.

"We are preparing a request to Moscow for information ... including the radar data with which the Russians wanted to prove that a Ukrainian military jet was nearby," he added.

An interim report issued by the Dutch Safety Board, which investigates air crashes, listed several passenger jets in flight MH17's vicinity, but no military aircraft that would have been capable of shooting it down."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/27/us-ukraine-crisis-mh-idUSKBN0IG1X420141027


It will be interesting to see if Russia can come up with the proof .... somehow I doubt it, otherwise they would have already, surely?

 

[ZaZara]

"In an interview published by German newsmagazine Der Spiegel on Monday, prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the Dutch would ask Moscow to provide the information that had led them to believe a Ukrainian aircraft was nearby.

"Based on the information available, a shooting-down by a ground-to-air missile is the most likely scenario, but we aren't closing our eyes to the possibility that it could have happened differently," Der Spiegel quoted him as saying.

"We are preparing a request to Moscow for information ... including the radar data with which the Russians wanted to prove that a Ukrainian military jet was nearby," he added.

An interim report issued by the Dutch Safety Board, which investigates air crashes, listed several passenger jets in flight MH17's vicinity, but no military aircraft that would have been capable of shooting it down."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/27/us-ukraine-crisis-mh-idUSKBN0IG1X420141027


It will be interesting to see if Russia can come up with the proof .... somehow I doubt it, otherwise they would have already, surely?

BBM


I just LOVED that remark.... an invitation to cooperate..... True Vintage! :giggle:

Let's wait and see what happens next. This will be very interesting.

 

[ZaZara]

DUTCH GOV'T: BODIES OR BODY PARTS OF 9 NON-IDENTIFIED MAY NOT HAVE BEEN RECOVERED FROM THE LOCATION OF THE CRASH


The Dutch Government has answered questions of the Parliament in a letter:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/sites/default/files/content/documents/2014/10/28/brief_mh17.pdf

Translation:


(Page 11.) Progress of identification process

Since July 17, 2014 the LTFO has been working on the identification of the 298 victims who died in the plane crash of MH17.
Meanwhile 284 victims have been identified on the basis of dental status, fingerprints or DNA.
The investigation into the identity of the last victims has currently reached a stage where identification is becoming increasingly difficult.
This is because the indicators (including DNA) that are required in order to arrive at an identification are insufficiently available in the unidentified bodies and body parts.
At this time the identity of 14 victims has not yet been established.
From 9 missing victims, DNA was not found on the body parts present.
Of 5 missing victims, DNA was found, but it is not sure whether an identification can be made on this basis.
The nearest relatives have been informed of this.

It is possible that of these 9 victims that are still missing, information will become available from the body parts of which there is no suitable DNA profile yet.
If and when that information will be available, we cannot say at this time.
It is also possible that the bodies and / or body parts of the missing were not recovered at the location of the crash.


BBM


They were not recovered or they may have been burned completely in the fire.


:rose:

 

[ZaZara]

NOT ALL VICTIMS OF MH17 MAY BE FOUND


RTL-Nieuws poses 5 questions to Dutch pathologist Frank van de Goot from the Dutch Forensic Institute
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binn...t-niet-alle-mh17-slachtoffers-worden-gevonden

Translation:

The identity of 14 victims of MH17 has not been determined. How can that be? Five questions to pathologist Frank van de Goot.

1. Of nine passengers of MH17 no DNA has been found yet, why is that?
"There are two possibilities: Either the victims are still there, since there are large areas that have not been searched yet, or the remains of the victims are too damaged for extracting DNA. The airplane came down from a great height, causing a lot of damage. But heat, especially heat is your main opponent. Heat is disastrous for DNA testing. Then no DNA profile can be recovered."


2. Of five victims DNA is found, but there is still no identification. How can that be?
"An identification is made when there is a significant number of genetic characteristics that correspond with family members. If there are only a few features, this is totally inadequate for identification. We look at 10, 15 or 20 separate matches. Match A affects 1 in 250,000 for the Dutch. Match B narrows it down to 1 in 600 for the Dutch and match C to 1 in 300 for the Dutch. Chances are high that you will find someone with matches on A ​​and B, and so your puzzle goes a step further each time. When you get have more matches, you're more confident. If there are 20 matches, then there is an overall match. If you have only 1 or 2, then it could still be anyone. "

3. How difficult is the work?
"Technically it is not hard work. You know whom you are looking for. You also have DNA samples to compare with the material that was found. That does not make the job easy, but easier..."

4. The winter is coming. What does that mean?
"The winters there are severe. Although snow will preserve well, the question is whether something will still be found after defrosting.
People who say that they have found bones.... That might well be. Bone fragments are often not recognizable for laymen.
From hair, DNA cannot be retrieved, you need you the hair root for that.

5. Will it be possible to identify all victims?
"At the very beginning it was already indicated that we had to be aware that not everyone might be found. [It was estimated that] about 10 to 20 people would not be found. We now stand at 14 people. Therefore, it is possible that we will find nothing of some victims, we need to take this into serious consideration. "


BBM

 

[SouthAussie]

Oh, that is so sad. 14 people who may not come home. It is especially sad when we hear of some remains still laying out there.

 

[SouthAussie]

Dutch authorities leading the investigation of the crash have come under criticism in the Netherlands from relatives of victims and lawmakers, who say not enough progress has been made in identifying who downed the plane. Officials say cold weather and continuing hostilities are making progress slow.

"Factions are still fighting each other and there are too many splinter groups, making it very risky for us ... we cannot get access to the crash site and that is very frustrating," [Malaysian Prime Minister Najib] Razak said. "I don't think what we're doing is adequate enough."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/28/us-malaysia-primeminister-idUSKBN0IH1S320141028

 

[ZaZara]

Dutch authorities leading the investigation of the crash have come under criticism in the Netherlands from relatives of victims and lawmakers, who say not enough progress has been made in identifying who downed the plane. Officials say cold weather and continuing hostilities are making progress slow.

"Factions are still fighting each other and there are too many splinter groups, making it very risky for us ... we cannot get access to the crash site and that is very frustrating," [Malaysian Prime Minister Najib] Razak said. "I don't think what we're doing is adequate enough."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/28/us-malaysia-primeminister-idUSKBN0IH1S320141028

Malaysian PM mentions something in the same interview that I find intriguing:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/28/us-malaysia-primeminister-idUSKBN0IH1S320141028

He said the bodies of all but one passenger had been secured now.


BBM


Frank van de Goot from Dutch NFI said that 14 passengers have not been identified yet. Among them are 5 of whom DNA was found but this DNA has not been identified yet.
That leaves us with 9 passengers who are possibly unaccounted for.
But according to PM Razak, only one body is unaccounted for.

Perhaps he is referring solely to the victims from Malaysia?

:thinking:

 

[ZaZara]

WERE THE NETHERLANDS TOO CAUTIOUS WITH MH17?


Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin: access to the crash site sure was not a political issue: this was a moral obligation


Nieuwsuur report:
http://nieuwsuur.nl/onderwerp/715448-was-nederland-te-voorzichtig-bij-mh17.html


Translation:


Ukraine raises questions about the way The Netherlands acted in the first days after the disaster with MH17. Kiev was not opposed to any negotiations with rebels about accessing the disaster area. This is shown by interviews from Nieuwsuur with various Ukrainian key players in negotiations after the disaster.

Kiev has not requested The Netherlands to refrain from direct negotiations with the rebels in eastern Ukraine, emphasizes Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin: "We could not recognize Donetsk People's Republic but access to the crash site surely was not a political issue: this was a moral obligation." And colonel and army spokesman Andrey Lysenko says: "The Dutch Government ought to have done everything possible to get complete information, even negotiate with Moscow."

The Netherlands have always avoided contact with the rebels, because this might imply the recognition of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk. Prime Minister Rutte commented earlier: "The Netherlands is a state, Ukraine is a state, that part of Ukraine is in violation of international law, we do not recognize it. If a rebel movement would have occupied part of [the province of] Gelderland in the Netherlands, I would also have great difficulty if my German or French colleague would talk to them. "

Prime Minister Najib Razak of Malaysia did negotiate it directly with the rebels, with the result that his country could quickly secure the black boxes. The government of President Poroshenko had no objection. Foreign Minister Klimkin says: "Malaysia had indeed direct contact. They even signed formal documents with the People's Republic of Donetsk, but these had no political or legal consequences. If it works, we are OK with that..."

Nieuwsuur also has spoken with Valeryi Chalyi, advisor to President Poroshenko. According to him, the Ukrainian President and Minister Timmermans were conferring "day and night" on the telephone. However, the Dutch were the last to arrive at the location of the crash. OSCE spokesman Michael Bociurkiw who was one of the first at the location on behalf of the OSCE, regrets this. "The first days were crucial: the crash site was vulnerable. Our ​​message was: As fast as possible." The Dutch investigation team arrived two weeks after the crash at the crash site.

All parties involved deny that Ukraine launched a military offensive on the rebels in and around the disaster site just before the arrival of the Dutch, causing the Dutch mission had to leave. "The Ukrainian army has been ordered by President Poroshenko refrain from fighting around the crash site," said Colonel Lysenko. According to Minister Klimkin not everybody supported that decision. "But we wanted the investigation team to have access to the disaster area. We therefore have suffered significant military losses."

The international investigation team has still not managed to do searches at the crash site. The Netherlands have recently retrieved personal belongings of passengers MH17.
According to the OSCE, Malaysia is annoyed by this solo operation. "I sense frustration on the Malaysian side," spokesman Bocuirkiw said. "They want to be really involved in securing personal belongings." The Malaysian embassy confirms this.


BBM

"The Netherlands have always avoided contact with the rebels, because this might imply the recognition of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk."
because
The Netherlands are a nation of Protestant Ministers who adhere to their so-called principles and this is the sad result.
Or either the Dutch Government consists of a bunch of terrible bureaucrats, busy with reasons NOT to act, and the outcome is the same.


:badmood:

 

[SouthAussie]

Malaysian PM mentions something in the same interview that I find intriguing:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/28/us-malaysia-primeminister-idUSKBN0IH1S320141028

He said the bodies of all but one passenger had been secured now.


BBM


Frank van de Goot from Dutch NFI said that 14 passengers have not been identified yet. Among them are 5 of whom DNA was found but this DNA has not been identified yet.
That leaves us with 9 passengers who are possibly unaccounted for.
But according to PM Razak, only one body is unaccounted for.

Perhaps he is referring solely to the victims from Malaysia?

:thinking:

BBM: Yes, I noticed that too ... and came to the same conclusion, that he is speaking of the Malaysian victims.

 

[SouthAussie]

Oh, I am really annoyed by the to and fro stuff about negotiating with the rebels. Just negotiate with them, as was done to get the black boxes, and get all of the remains out of there!

The excuses are ridiculous imo.

And what are they going to do with all those plane parts laying everywhere? Do the Ukraine locals have to just accept them as an ongoing part of their landscape now? Something to climb through and around as they tend their crops?

I hope some positive action is the result of the upcoming talks between the Dutch, Aussies and Malaysians.

 

[ZaZara]

RESPONSE OF THE DEPT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS ON UKRAINE AND NEGOTIATIONS WITH SEPARATISTS


Nieuwsuur reports:
http://nieuwsuur.nl/onderwerp/715575

Translation

From the very beginning the decision of the Cabinet not to negotiate directly with the separatists has been a matter of principle. That would have made us vulnerable and susceptible to blackmail. There was an alternative available via the OSCE that worked well, moreover this was preferred by the Ukrainian authorities.

The Netherlands appreciate the good and intensive cooperation with Ukraine, Malaysia and Australia in the aftermath of the disaster of flight MH17. We will continue to do everything to bring to a good end the dealings with the disaster as quickly as possible and with respect for and in constant consultation with the countries most concerned.


BBM

principle .... told you so...

:gaah:

 

[ZaZara]

FIVE NEW IDENTIFICATIONS

RTL-Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/vijf-slachtoffers-mh17-geidentificeerd

Translation:


Five victims of the disaster with MH17 were identified this week. Of these, four have the Dutch nationality. That means there are nine people left who have not been identified.

As of now a total of 289 victims has been identified. In the disaster 298 people were killed, of whom 196 Dutch.

Of nine passengers no DNA has yet been found on the body parts that were recovered, reports the Dep't of Security and Justice. It remains possible be that of these nine people information becomes available from the body parts that are already present in the barracks in Hilversum.

"If and when that information will be available, is impossible to say at this moment." According to the Department of Security and Justice, it is possible "that the bodies or body parts of the missing were not recovered at the location of the crash."


BBM

:rose:

 

[ZaZara]

HUMAN REMAINS FOUND AND SALVAGED AT THE LOCATION OF THE CRASH


RTIL-Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/nederlands-team-vindt-menselijke-resten-op-rampplek-mh17

Translation:


Today, a Dutch team visited the crash site of MH17. Investigators have found human remains of victims of the crash. Dutch Prime Minister Rutte has announced this moments ago.

The situation on the ground is complex and chaotic. Every day the options and possibilities are being reviewed. The safety of people at the scene comes first, Rutte emphasized.
The conditions were favorable today, so the Dutch could travel together with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) to the crash site.

The remains will be transferred according to protocol to the eastern city of Kharkiv. After an initial check they are brought to The Netherlands, says Rutte. When that will happen, it is not yet known.

According to Rutte, The Netherlands, Malaysia and Australia, countries most affected, work together since the beginning in order to recover the remains and belongings of victims, to do investigation into the circumstances of the disaster and to conduct criminal investigations. Thereby, the countries hope to provide the next of kin with as much consolation as possible.
"The task is hard," Rutte said.


BBM

 

[ZaZara]

UKRAINE OPPOSES DIRECT CONTACT WITH SEPARATISTS



RTL-Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/kiev-tegen-direct-contact-met-rebellen-om-mh17

Translation:


Ukraine has prompted The Netherlands and other countries from the start of the crash not negotiate directly with the rebels who have control of he crash site in the east of the country.
All contacts should continue to run through the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), the government of Ukraine declares in a statement.

According to the [Ukranian] Government, there is no basis for the speculation that The Netherlands might have or should have negotiated access to the crash site directly with the pro-Russian separatists. The Dutch government had already decided immediately not to negotiate directly with the rebels, but communicate through the OSCE.

The area where the wreckage of the MH17 landed, has been under control of the separatists since the disaster. Kiev stresses that the rebels have denied many times access to the area to the investigators, that the separatists have fired shots at the crash site and that they have manipulated evidence.

The Netherlands are leading the investigation into the plane crash. The Government of Ukraine says that they support all the work of the investigators on Ukrainian territory. According to Kiev, the investigation teams can only do their normal work and collect the remaining bodies or body parts of victims and other evidence and belongings, if Ukraine regains full control over the disaster area.

Dutch FM Bert Koenders [successor of former FM Timmermans] will travel Kiev and meet with his Ukrainian counterpart Pavlo Klimkin soon.


BBM


Well well well.... who would have thought that?
Must take another look at the broadcast of Nieuwsuur:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...98-aboard-7-17-2014-4&p=11145319#post11145319

Ukraine raises questions about the way The Netherlands acted in the first days after the disaster with MH17. Kiev was not opposed to any negotiations with rebels about accessing the disaster area. This is shown by interviews from Nieuwsuur with various Ukrainian key players in negotiations after the disaster.

Kiev has not requested The Netherlands to refrain from direct negotiations with the rebels in eastern Ukraine, emphasizes Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin: "We could not recognize Donetsk People's Republic but access to the crash site surely was not a political issue: this was a moral obligation." And colonel and army spokesman Andrey Lysenko says: "The Dutch Government ought to have done everything possible to get complete information, even negotiate with Moscow."

Two days is a long time in politics....

:laughing: :laughing:

 

[Donamena]

'Well, well, well' indeed, 2 days is such a long time & that's one of crappiest 'cover my ' manifestos I've ever read.

 

[ZaZara]

TEAM TO RE-ENTER CRASH SITE
ALL MALAYSIAN VICTIMS IDENTIFIED


Malaysian New Straits Times reports:
http://www.nst.com.my/node/48906?m=1?d=1

KOTA BARU: TRANSPORT Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai said investigators will re-enter the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines MH17 in eastern Ukraine in the next one or two weeks even though it is winter. He said the Ukrainian and separatist forces had agreed on a ceasefire to enable the investigating team to re-enter the site.

Liow said priority would be given to collecting evidence and wreckage parts as they were important in the probe.
“The wreckage will be sent to the Netherlands first, and not Malaysia, as the investigation into the crash is chaired by the Dutch.
“If possible, we want to bring back all the parts for it (the plane) to be reconstructed so that investigators can determine where and how it was hit.”

He said 289 of the passengers on the flight had been identified, including all 44 Malaysians.

BBM