GUILTY Netherlands - Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 #4

  • #321
  • #322
AT LEAST 331 KILLED IN UKRAINE SINCE CEASE-FIRE (SEPT 5)


NYT reports
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/w...partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimesworld&_r=1


Hundreds of people have died in fighting in eastern Ukraine since a cease-fire was agreed to by the government and armed separatists last month, the United Nations reported Wednesday, saying it had also received reports of mass graves containing hundreds of bodies.

At least 331 people were reported killed in the month after the cease-fire was announced on Sept. 5, the United Nations’ human rights office in Geneva said, adding that exchanges of artillery, tank and light arms fire had continued on an almost daily basis in some areas of the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk.



BBM

More at link:

“There is a total breakdown of law and order,” Mr. Magazzeni said.



:judge:
 
  • #323
AT LEAST 331 KILLED IN UKRAINE SINCE CEASE-FIRE (SEPT 5)


NYT reports
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/w...partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimesworld&_r=1


Hundreds of people have died in fighting in eastern Ukraine since a cease-fire was agreed to by the government and armed separatists last month, the United Nations reported Wednesday, saying it had also received reports of mass graves containing hundreds of bodies.

At least 331 people were reported killed in the month after the cease-fire was announced on Sept. 5, the United Nations’ human rights office in Geneva said, adding that exchanges of artillery, tank and light arms fire had continued on an almost daily basis in some areas of the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk.



BBM

More at link:

“There is a total breakdown of law and order,” Mr. Magazzeni said.



:judge:

What would we do without you, our go to Indian Red??
 
  • #324
BREAKING: VICTIM MH17 WAS FOUND WITH OXYGEN MASK

Tonight, Dutch FM Timmermans appeared on Dutch TV in the late show 'Pauw'.
Timmermans will be leaving his post soon for the European Commission, his nomination was approved yesterday.



http://pauw.vara.nl/nieuws/slachtoffer-mh17-met-zuurstofmasker-gevonden

Victim MH17 found with oxygen mask

Wednesday, 8 October 2014

A victim of the flight MH17 was found with an oxygen mask over his mouth. Departing FM Frans Timmermans told this tonight in 'Pauw'.
"So he must have had the time to put a mask on."


Soon after the disaster, at the end of July, Timmermans delivered an emotional speech to the UN Security Council. In this speech he described the last thoughts of the victims: Did they lock hands with their loved ones, did they hold their children close to their hearts? We'll never know." (*)

At the time, experts said that the passengers were either directly killed by the missile impact or lost consciousness immediately. Timmermans responded to that criticism in 'Pauw' and talked about the victim with the oxygen mask.

About the disaster and his own life, the FM, who will become European Commissioner, said: "For me, there is a life before MH17 and a life after MH17."



BBM

(*) How horrible must have been the final moments of their lives, when they knew the plane was going down. Did they lock hands with their loved ones, did they hold their children close to their hearts, did they look each other in the eyes, one final time, in an unarticulated goodbye? We will never know.

Full text of the speech to UN Security Council (scroll for English) and video:
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2014/07/22/terugluisteren-en-lezen-de-bewogen-speech-van-timmermans/


:rose:
 
  • #325
VARIOUS SOURCES DOUBT DUTCH FM STORY ABOUT OXYGEN MASK


Olaf Koens ‏@obk 28 min

Vreemd verhaal van Timmermans en het zuurstofmasker. Roept alleen maar vragen op http://www.volkskrant.nl/dossier-ra...-met-zuurstofmasker~a3764574/?akamaiType=FREE …
Sterker nog, ik geloof Timmermans niet. Van de lichamen die ik heb gezien - en dat waren er meer dan 100 - nergens een zuurstofmasker

Translation:

Strange story from Timmermans and the oxygen mask. Only raises more questions http://www.volkskrant.nl/dossier-ra...-met-zuurstofmasker~a3764574/?akamaiType=FREE …
In fact, I do not believe Timmermans. On all bodies that I've seen - and there were over a 100 - nowhere an oxygen mask


Kees Berghuis @KeesBerghuis · 2 u 2 uur geleden
Chef politieke redactie RTL NIEUWS

Als dat mondkapje van Timmermans waar is, wat is er dan nog meer waar dat hij niet verteld heeft? #MH17
Ik hoor uit betrouwbare bron dat Timmermans' lezing / conclusie niet correct is. #MH17 #zuurstofmasker
Vermoed dat nabestaanden MH17 asap worden geïnformeerd over uitspraak Timmermans
Bron: Géén slachtoffer gevonden dat een zuurstofmasker op zijn mond had. Wel om nek - maar totaal onduidelijk hoe en wat. #MH17

Translation

If that oxygen mask of Timmermans is true, what more is true that he did not tell? #MH17
I hear from reliable source that Timmermans interpretation / conclusion is not correct #MH17 #oxygenmask
I suspect that surviving relatives are being informed ASAP about statement Timmermans

Source: NO victim found with an oxygen mask on his mouth. Yes around the neck - but completely unclear how and what. #MH17


Jonathan v.h. Reve @JvhReve · 18 min. 18 minuten geleden

Voor eigen gewin de nabestaanden pijn doen met iets dat ook nog eens niet wáár is? Dat begint op waanzin te lijken. #timmermans #MH17

Translation:

Hurting survivors for your own gain with something that is not even true? This is beginning to look like madness. #Timmerman #MH17

Australian news.com.au reports:
http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...foreign-minister/story-fnizu68q-1227085259511

AT least one passenger on board shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 had an oxygen mask over his mouth when his body was recovered.

The revelation by Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans indicated that some of the 283 passengers and 15 crew on board may have remained conscious after the aircraft was shot down by a Buk surface-to-air missile fired by pro-Russian separatists 50km from the Ukraine-Russia border on July 17, BNO News reported.

Timmermans added that there was no evidence to conclude that the final moments could not have been as he said in his UN speech.
Timmermans suggested that passengers had remained conscious after the airliner was struck by a suspected missile during his UN speech on July 21


BBM


For he surviving relatives it must have been a consolation of sorts that their loved ones died quickly and unaware of what was happening. Until now.
If this is true, whay wasn't it made public before?
And if it is not, why was it told?


:notgood: :notgood:
 
  • #326
CARTOONIST VIEW


BzfmmeuIEAAfBI_.jpg


Translation:

You know a mobile phone was found that was still working, was turned on and was logged on on Facebook and on which the victim as a last act has 'liked' my status?



BBM

This of course is satire and not even a rumor, let alone a fact.
 
  • #327
LOCAL FIRE BRIGADE SAW NO PASSENGERS WITH OXYGEN MASK

Jeroen Akkermans @JeroenAkkermans 8 min

#MH17 Gebeld met de brandweercommandanten die verantwoordelijk waren voor berging vd lichamen.Geen passagier met zuurstofmasker op gezien

Translation:

# MH17 Called the fire captains who were responsible for salvage of the bodies. No passenger with oxygen mask was seen.


BBM

Jeroen Akkermans is reporter for RTL Nieuws.
He was in Ukraine at the location of the crash and took many pictures.
He also interviewed the local fire brigade who salvaged the bodies at the crash site and made a video report.

RTL Nieuws has done excellent reporting and sleuthing on crash MH17.
 
  • #328
OXYGEN MASK ALLEDGEDLY FOUND AROUND NECK OF AUSTRALIAN PASSENGER


NOS reports:

http://nos.nl/artikel/707949-recherche-1-passagier-had-masker.html

Translation:

One of the passengers of Flight MH17 had an oxygen mask around the neck. All other passengers did not wear respirators, report the investigators. This is stated in a briefing to the relatives of the victims of the air crash, a briefing that is in the hands of the NOS.

The investigators sent this letter this morning to the relatives in response to the statements of Minister Timmermans in the broadcast of Pauw. He said there was a passenger who had an oxygen mask to the mouth and thus suggested that the occupants of the plane were aware of what was happening. Survivors were shocked by these statements.


According to the investigators it concerns an Australian passenger. The mask was attached with an elastic band around the neck of the victim. The NFI examined the mask for fingerprints, saliva and DNA, but that did not yield any results. It is unknown how and when the mask came to be around the neck of the victim.

"The relatives concerned" [of this passenger] were informed about this when these results were announced, according to the investigators. This fact was is not made public because the prosecution can not base any conclusion on it yet on and is still investigating.



BBM
 
  • #329
DUTCH FM TIMMERMANS APOLOGIZES OVER REMARK


RTL Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/zuurstofmasker-mh17-passagier#node_1099966

Translation:


"The MH17 disaster goes to my heart. I sympathise deeply with the relatives. The last thing I want is to aggravate in any way their suffering," said the FM about his statements in the television broadcast 'Pauw'. "I should not have said that."


BBM

Now please back to work in Ukraine!
 
  • #330
10 NEW IDENTIFICATIONS


Martin van Norel
@MartinvNorelRTL

Dutch Journalist RTL Nieuws, focussing on terrorism, conflict areas and Dutch daily news:

272 MH17 victims have been identified according to Dutch government. 26 people still un-identified.


BBM


:rose:
 
  • #331
DUTCH FM TIMMERMANS APOLOGIZES OVER REMARK


RTL Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/zuurstofmasker-mh17-passagier#node_1099966

Translation:


"The MH17 disaster goes to my heart. I sympathise deeply with the relatives. The last thing I want is to aggravate in any way their suffering," said the FM about his statements in the television broadcast 'Pauw'. "I should not have said that."


BBM

Now please back to work in Ukraine!


This is very sad and upsetting to hear. It is in our papers too.

"Relatives of the Australian passenger were told about the mask as soon as it was discovered, but relatives of other victims heard about it for the first time when Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans mentioned it during an interview on a late-night talk show on Wednesday.

Relatives of victims began calling investigators Thursday asking about the comments, De Bruin said."

http://www.smh.com.au/world/austral...rosecutors-20141009-113yjj.html#ixzz3FprhFdPG
 
  • #332
REVELATIONS the body of an Australian passenger from Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 was found with an oxygen mask should come as no surprise, an aviation expert says.

Former pilot and air traffic control operator Peter Smith said it was “extremely unlikely” the Buk surface-to-air missile that brought down the Boeing 777 would have killed everybody on board immediately.

Despite the damage, a number of the aircraft emergency systems would probably still have been working, including the automatic deployment of oxygen masks, Mr Smith said.
“It is entirely likely that a number of passengers may have been able to begin breathing through the emergency oxygen system in the depressurised cabin of the aircraft as it fell to earth,” he said.

“I know this is not what the relatives of passengers on board the aircraft would probably wish to hear but in my view it is certainly probable that many, perhaps even the majority of the passengers would still have been conscious and alive as the aircraft dropped out of the sky.”
Those who did not manage to breathe emergency oxygen would have been rendered unconscious quite quickly, perhaps within one to two minutes, he said.

“But I am reasonably certain that many of the passengers would have known precisely what was happening to the aircraft as it fell from the sky, even if they had no idea why.”

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...foreign-minister/story-fnizu68q-1227085259511

:(
 
  • #333
This is very sad and upsetting to hear. It is in our papers too.

"Relatives of the Australian passenger were told about the mask as soon as it was discovered, but relatives of other victims heard about it for the first time when Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans mentioned it during an interview on a late-night talk show on Wednesday.

Relatives of victims began calling investigators Thursday asking about the comments, De Bruin said."

http://www.smh.com.au/world/austral...rosecutors-20141009-113yjj.html#ixzz3FprhFdPG

The FM should have kept his big vain mouth shut.
But he didn't.
Instead he pulled this oxygen mask into the frame of his own speech at the UN Security Council.
Suggesting that (some) passengers may have been aware what was happening.

The only fact is that 1 passenger had an oxygen mask around his neck.
How that came about is unclear.
Forensic examination yielded no results (like fingerpints from the passenger or the like).
The mechanism that lowers the oxygen mask may still have been operational, or the entire part may have exploded. Or ....

Relatives in The Netherlands are very upset too. Many found some consolation in the idea that their loved ones at least had not been aware or suffered.
Some plan to sue the Goverenment over negligence.

Gut-wrenching!

:banghead:



Meanwhile, Dutch satirists are having a field day.
This one is from De Speld ("The Needle" or "The Pin") a sartirical website comparable with "The Onion" from the US:
http://www.speld.nl/2014/10/10/boek-timmermans-over-vliegramp-mh17-uit-de-handel/

Frans Timmermans regrets his book "The exact circumstances of flight MH17 - All sensitive information at a glance." According to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the 720-page epic story was "not intended as such." Publisher The Bezige Bij has already withdrawn the book from the market at the request of the Foreign Ministry. Timmermans called the publication of the book a "slip of the pen" and says the sturdy reference book was cited out of context.
 
  • #334
REVELATIONS the body of an Australian passenger from Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 was found with an oxygen mask should come as no surprise, an aviation expert says.

Former pilot and air traffic control operator Peter Smith said it was “extremely unlikely” the Buk surface-to-air missile that brought down the Boeing 777 would have killed everybody on board immediately.

Despite the damage, a number of the aircraft emergency systems would probably still have been working, including the automatic deployment of oxygen masks, Mr Smith said.
“It is entirely likely that a number of passengers may have been able to begin breathing through the emergency oxygen system in the depressurised cabin of the aircraft as it fell to earth,” he said.

“I know this is not what the relatives of passengers on board the aircraft would probably wish to hear but in my view it is certainly probable that many, perhaps even the majority of the passengers would still have been conscious and alive as the aircraft dropped out of the sky.”
Those who did not manage to breathe emergency oxygen would have been rendered unconscious quite quickly, perhaps within one to two minutes, he said.

“But I am reasonably certain that many of the passengers would have known precisely what was happening to the aircraft as it fell from the sky, even if they had no idea why.”

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...foreign-minister/story-fnizu68q-1227085259511

:(

We know people were looting, I thought it was planted by someone on the ground when I 1st heard about it.
We all hope passenger did not suffer; but let's face it; suffering is a fact of life whether you're the victim of a crime or will not be one of the people to pass away in their sleep. My dad had cancer. He suffered. I would assume that in this case they may have been aware of the area they were flying over; the rest had to have happened fairly quick.

I've wondered about MH370 passengers & if any knew they were going in the water
 
  • #335
UKRAINE DISASTER RELIEF AND 4 DUTCH RESUME SEARCH FOR BELONGINGS ON MONDAY

Jeroen Akkermans ‏@JeroenAkkermans 10 min.

#MH17 Maandag alsnog leden vd Oekraïnse rampendienst ism 4 Nederlanders op zoek naar achtergebleven bagage. Spullen naar NL-team in Charkov


Translation:

#MH17 On Monday members from the Ukrainian disaster relief together with four Dutchmen will start looking at last for baggage that was left behind. Items to go to NL team in Kharkiv


BBM



Nieuwsuur reported earlier:
http://nieuwsuur.nl/onderwerp/709246-oekraine-gaat-menselijke-resten-mh17-zoeken.html


Translation:


The Ukrainian Disaster Relief will start tomorrow looking for other personal belongings and remains of passengers of flight MH17 disaster. These are then transferred to a Dutch team in Kharkov, as was promised to the Netherlands in Donetsk.

(...)

.... because the probability that the Dutch investigators will eventually able to return to the crash site, is getting smaller, according to the [Dutch] government on Friday in a letter to the Parliament. It is still too unsafe in the Ukrainian territory, the government wrote.

However, Pieter-Jaap Aalbersberg, the head of the repatriation mission in Ukraine, has been able to achieve that the Ukrainians themselves will collect the remains and personal belongings that are still in the area. This is the result of quiet diplomacy by Aalbersberg and his Dutch team.

(...)


The eastern Ukrainians from the SES are the same people who also salvaged human remains in the area immediately after the disaster in July . They were initially criticized, including by Prime Minister Rutte, because they alledgedly dealt with the remains carelessly and tactlessly. It later became clear that this was not the case at all.


BBM
 
  • #336
AUSTRALIA PM VOWS TO CONFRONT RUSSIANS PRESIDENT PUTIN AT G-20 OVER MH17 CRASH


StraitsTimes reports:
http://www.straitstimes.com/news/as...confront-russian-president-putin-g-20-over-mh


Mr Abbott has used tough language against Russia since a Malaysia Airlines plane was shot down over eastern Ukraine in July, killing all 298 onboard - including 38 Australian citizens or residents. He said Monday he would be confronting Mr Putin over the tragedy.

"I'm going to shirtfront Mr Putin - you bet I am," Mr Abbott told reporters, referring to an Australian sporting term in which a player charges someone. "I'm going to be saying to Mr. Putin - Australians were murdered and they were murdered by Russian-backed rebels using Russian supplied equipment. We are very unhappy about this.


BBM


The expression to shirtfront someone was new to me, and at a first glance, I missed the 'r' in shirt ....... a very merry beginning of this week!

:great::great:


Reporters are having another field day:

BzzvnBVCEAAWDZ5.jpg
 
  • #337
SEARCH AT CRASH SITE MH17 FOR ONE DAY ONLY?



Jeroen Akkermans, RTL nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buit...at-oekrainers-vinden-koffers-op-rampplek-mh17

Translation:


As the search is resumed at the scene of the MH17, Ukrainian emergency responders have found ten suitcases and bags today. The luggage was scattered among the wreckage of the aircraft.

One of the Ukrainians on site, Colonel Sergei Michenko, fire chief in Torez told this to RTL Nieuws. He is in charge of one of the four fire brigades from other villages that are searching today in the disaster area. A total of 44 emergency responders are searching.

They are especially looking for personal belongings of passengers. At the crash site at Grabova a big part of the hull of the unit was found and most victims were recovered there.

"To date, we have found ten cases and bags," Michenko tells correspondent Jeroen Akkermans. When asked why that has not happened before, Michenko replies: "No one has ever asked us to do that."

There is no shooting in the neighborhood, but according Michenko the artillery fire is heard near Debalzewe a village about 40 kilometers north. There is heavy fighting ongoing today.

Michenko does not know how long the search will take. "We have been instructed to search today. Whether tomorrow this will still be the case, I cannot tell you."


BBM



How very frustrating this is! :banghead:
Earlier we were told that 4 Dutchmen would join the searches - where are they?
The Dutch Government does not negotiate with the rebels directly. Negotiations were done through the OSCE.
IMHO nobody would really care with whom they negotiated, as long as they bring everybody home, and leave no stone unturned.
But in the view of many Dutch, the government hides behind 'principles', rules and regulations.
Like when it is claimed that it is too dangerous to return to the crash site ... but apparently for the Ukranians it is not too dangerous at all.
Sure. Right. Yeah. Very convincing.
 
  • #338
This is unconscionable, still more bodies, still in the heat in black plastic. Still items on the ground.
Still stupidly incompetent people. Heartless.
 
  • #339
NO ORDER TO CONTINUE SEARCH TOMORROW ?

Jeroen Akkermans @JeroenAkkermans · 1hrs ago

Brandweercommandant Michenko in #MH17 zone telefonisch gesproken.Pers. bezittingen & koffers gevonden.Geen opdracht morgen verder te zoeken

Translation:

Spoke with Fire captain Michenko in #MH17 zone by telephone. Pers. belongings and suitcases found. No order for further search tomorrow.


BBM


Different news from Dutch reporter GertJan Dennekamp for NOS:


Gert-Jan Dennekamp @gjdennekamp 3 hrs ago

Woordvoerder OVSE zegt tegen NOS dat de zoekactie morgen opnieuw wordt voortgezet. "We will try to go tomorrow." #MH17


Translation:

Spokesman OSCE tells Dutch NOS that the search expedition will be continued tomorrow. "We will try to go tomorrow." #MH17


BBM

So what's it going to be??
:gaah: :gaah: :gaah:
 
  • #340
INTERVIEW WITH PIETER-JAAP AALBERSBERG, HEAD OF SALVAGE MISSION, ON SEARCH OF TODAY


Dutch "Nieuwsuur" has interviewed Pieter Jaap Aalbersberg, head of salvage mission.

Reporter Rudy Bouma @rudybouma of Nieuwsuur tweets about the interview:

Translation:


OSCE says after shelling at crash site MH17 via phone to Ukrainian army: "If you do not stop, we have to stop the operation."

Today was collected at crash site # MH17: clothing, jewelry, stuffed animals and photos: 9 m3 in total of personal items.

Emergency crews in disaster area #MH17 do not dare to search for belongings around town #Petropalovka because of fighting

Tomorrow SES will not again go into disaster area # MH17 because of poor safety situation


Salvage mission wants to return with specialists to the crash site to search for remains

Negotiations crash site MH17 due to many parties.

No transport was availalble, NL chartered trucks for transport items MH17

The SES in Eastern Ukraine demanded that Dutch attended the salvage so they would not be reproached again for not doing the work well

#Aalbersberg suffered from negative perceptions about salvage MH17 during negotiations with SES

Kiev knew nothing of deal between NL and Eastern Ukrainian SES rescuers. "I do not recognize that notion," Aalbersberg says

Jewelry from passengers # MH17 turned out neatly collected at central locations around crash site

Stuff # MH17 will not go to Kharkov until tomorrow: first forensic check will be done there by eight additional experts

Aalbersberg says that NL was not at the negotiating table, but NL captain was indeed present with SES.

NL will possibly request SES Ukraine to secure wreckage also

Nine boxes of 1x1 meters, passports, Ipad, pictures "real belongings that matter to the survivors."

"We still want to return to the site, if it cannot be before the winter, then it must be after the winter"

"Safety is paramount for our people, but we try to get the max. We are going back again"


BBM
 

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