New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmism

[animlzrule]

Yeah, sounds like a real wing-nut to me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Spencer_(scientist)

Keep looking. :crazy: I'm not interested enough in the protestations of a denialist to spend much time on him, but suffice it to say that he is an outsider amongst his scientific community.

 

[Tuffy]

Keep looking. :crazy: I'm not interested enough in the protestations of a denialist to spend much time on him, but suffice it to say that he is an outsider amongst his scientific community.

Hmmm...I just Googled the guy, and really didn't find anything negative. If you aren't interested in backing up your statement though...

Perhaps he's not popular, because he has an opposing opinion?

 

[kgeaux]

Well no, it's OT because it has nothing to do with climate change. :waitasec:

Oh, I hope I am not going to be torn to shreds. I have utmost respect for Dark Knight AND for Nova. Both of you are among my favorites!

I have watched Al Gore's movie, and read some of the science supporting his view. I also am married to a highly educated man who insists that Al Gore is Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. My husband disagrees that mankind has had much of an impact on our earth and its atmosphere. He disagrees that our effect is traumatic or even a large effect. He has shown me study after study (admittedly that support and have formed his point of view) that what we are experiencing now is NOT an anomaly but rather a part of a pattern which has been repeated for eons. Hubby has two degrees in the science field and one in the political field.....and,

I have NO higher education in science. (Well, not a degree in science! I surely did take enough college science classes to think I am "sorta kinda" versed on scientific topics! LOL!) I do respect my husband, and he is very persuasive in his presentations!!! However, I also think that humanity is having a HUGE negative impact on our precious planet.

I would rather err on the side of caution here! I think we should do all we can to REPAIR any damage we have done, and I believe we (all of us!) should learn to live in a way that is kindest to Earth. Because we really have no where else to go, do we?

I do take great comfort from the Bible verses which state that as long as there are people on this earth, there will be seasons.....summer will follow spring, fall will follow summer and winter will follow fall. Hopefully that means that humans will not completely destroy our home and atmosphere.

 

[ziggy]

It's just like in court where experts seem to disagree with each other given the same set of facts. I have a feeling that the earth's climate doth change and I'll take history of earth changes for $500 Alex. I often stand where giant glaciers once stood. No human action caused the climate changes in the past.

I believe Al is a greedy capitalist who has managed to turn this fear into a different kind of green that lines his pockets!!! Go Green everyone!!!! Al needs a new mansion and more money to buy carbon off sets for his ever growing waistline that ups the old carbon output if you know what I mean. It's all just utterly disgusting to me.

There is no question that climate change may be slowly changing regional weather patterns but is it the age old way of nature, the effects of the sun, or some man-made cause? Experts don't agree so I know we won't. I don't think man can destroy the earth like this. She will kill us before we kill her.

Unless of course we throw the twisty bulbs away in the trash then we are DOOMED I say.

Edited to add that I do believe in treating our beloved home with care, keep the water clean and preserve things in good condition for future generations. That doesn't mean I agree with going completely overboard. I hate commuter lanes because I think they just increase pollution from all the cars sitting on the freeway at rush hour because they can't use that open lane. Twisty light bulbs are violating my civil rights...there's a huge overreaching of the government in the name of green and it really pizzes me off! Humph!!! Don't get me started, but as conservative as I may be, I love the planet.

 

[Nova]

Oh, I hope I am not going to be torn to shreds. I have utmost respect for Dark Knight AND for Nova. Both of you are among my favorites!

I have watched Al Gore's movie, and read some of the science supporting his view. I also am married to a highly educated man who insists that Al Gore is Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. My husband disagrees that mankind has had much of an impact on our earth and its atmosphere. He disagrees that our effect is traumatic or even a large effect. He has shown me study after study (admittedly that support and have formed his point of view) that what we are experiencing now is NOT an anomaly but rather a part of a pattern which has been repeated for eons. Hubby has two degrees in the science field and one in the political field.....and,

I have NO higher education in science. (Well, not a degree in science! I surely did take enough college science classes to think I am "sorta kinda" versed on scientific topics! LOL!) I do respect my husband, and he is very persuasive in his presentations!!! However, I also think that humanity is having a HUGE negative impact on our precious planet.

I would rather err on the side of caution here! I think we should do all we can to REPAIR any damage we have done, and I believe we (all of us!) should learn to live in a way that is kindest to Earth. Because we really have no where else to go, do we?

I do take great comfort from the Bible verses which state that as long as there are people on this earth, there will be seasons.....summer will follow spring, fall will follow summer and winter will follow fall. Hopefully that means that humans will not completely destroy our home and atmosphere.

I'm sure I couldn't begin to hold my own in a discussion with your husband, kgeaux, but I don't understand him if he is arguing that humans have had no significant effect on the earth.

Although scientists may argue climate-future modeling, I don't think anyone can argue that we haven't largely deforested much of North America and destroyed large swaths of rain forest around the world. We also know that parts of North Africa and the Middle East weren't desert until human beings overfarmed them. The effects of oil spills and, perhaps more importantly, overfishing are also undeniable. Our capacity to drive other species to extinction also seems undeniable.

George Carlin used to do a routine complaining about campaigns to "Save the Planet." I'm paraphrasing, but he went on to say it was arrogant to think we could destroy the Earth. The Earth will go on just fine, but whether it will do so in a condition that supports human life is another matter. Per Carlin, the slogan should read "Save the Human Race."

 

[Nova]

It's just like in court where experts seem to disagree with each other given the same set of facts. I have a feeling that the earth's climate doth change and I'll take history of earth changes for $500 Alex. I often stand where giant glaciers once stood. No human action caused the climate changes in the past.

I believe Al is a greedy capitalist who has managed to turn this fear into a different kind of green that lines his pockets!!! Go Green everyone!!!! Al needs a new mansion and more money to buy carbon off sets for his ever growing waistline that ups the old carbon output if you know what I mean. It's all just utterly disgusting to me.

There is no question that climate change may be slowly changing regional weather patterns but is it the age old way of nature, the effects of the sun, or some man-made cause? Experts don't agree so I know we won't. I don't think man can destroy the earth like this. She will kill us before we kill her.

Unless of course we throw the twisty bulbs away in the trash then we are DOOMED I say.

Edited to add that I do believe in treating our beloved home with care, keep the water clean and preserve things in good condition for future generations. That doesn't mean I agree with going completely overboard. I hate commuter lanes because I think they just increase pollution from all the cars sitting on the freeway at rush hour because they can't use that open lane. Twisty light bulbs are violating my civil rights...there's a huge overreaching of the government in the name of green and it really pizzes me off! Humph!!! Don't get me started, but as conservative as I may be, I love the planet.

ziggy, your post is maddening.

On the one hand you argue we should treat "our beloved home with care." On the other hand, you argue that anything or anybody that tries to improve the way we treat our "beloved home" is a menace.

What is your suggestion? That we cross our fingers?

BTW, I'm pretty sure the Constitution doesn't guarantee anyone a right to a particular type of lightbulb.

And I don't know what Al Gore has earned from speaking engagements and book royalties, but I promise you it's a fraction of what he could have earned as a spokesman for an oil company or brokerage firm.

 

[Dark Knight]

I'm sure I couldn't begin to hold my own in a discussion with your husband, kgeaux, but I don't understand him if he is arguing that humans have had no significant effect on the earth.

Although scientists may argue climate-future modeling, I don't think anyone can argue that we haven't largely deforested much of North America and destroyed large swaths of rain forest around the world. We also know that parts of North Africa and the Middle East weren't desert until human beings overfarmed them. The effects of oil spills and, perhaps more importantly, overfishing are also undeniable. Our capacity to drive other species to extinction also seems undeniable.

George Carlin used to do a routine complaining about campaigns to "Save the Planet." I'm paraphrasing, but he went on to say it was arrogant to think we could destroy the Earth. The Earth will go on just fine, but whether it will do so in a condition that supports human life is another matter. Per Carlin, the slogan should read "Save the Human Race."

I agree 100% that the overfishing and deforestation has to stop ASAP. It is shortsighted, irresponsible and even immoral. We never learn. There are far more responsible ways to fish and harvest wood but not enough countries are using them.

 

[Herding Cats]

Nova, not speaking for Ziggy, but I "get" what she's saying.

If there are punishments for not doing something/doing something, that's a problem. It's gotten so that people yell at you - strangers, no less - for not "recycling", or recycling only a bit of stuff.

There are people who can't handle the twisty bulbs; medical issues, I think, like autism and epilepsy can be aggravated with the flickering of them. So should they be punished? Or do we create an entirely new government entity to approve those folks for exceptions, and then, if there is no market, how do they buy them?

I recycle. I do everything I can to prevent a high 'carbon footprint', but I still have to live my life. I can't afford one of those new cool enviro-cars, so I do what I can to bundle errands, and reduce my driving. I don't use the A/C unless indoor temps are over 85*, and I water my lawn at night. I garden, and use Tango's poop to fertilize, and I only buy farmed fish (when I buy fish...I don't like it too much). I don't use wood unless it's dead wood I've cleared from my property; I'll use fake logs instead.

I do what I can. I care; but to be punished, or prevented from, making a choice that I believe is better for me (as in the lightbulbs), does some damage to one's willingness, not to mention destroys jobs (the whole lightbulb industry has been in an uproar over the last few years).

I would use solar power (and will, someday), but right now, it's cost prohibitive and that prevents me. I would use wind power, but I don't get enough wind, and I don't have the cash (or the permits...) to get a wind tower erected at my house.

It's definitely a connundrum...I want to do what's best, but I can't afford to. I think that's what Ziggy is referring to, the difficulty and the government pressure/mandates that have occurred which make it tough to change over.

As always, imho and all that...

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[ziggy]

ziggy, your post is maddening.

On the one hand you argue we should treat "our beloved home with care." On the other hand, you argue that anything or anybody that tries to improve the way we treat our "beloved home" is a menace.

What is your suggestion? That we cross our fingers?

BTW, I'm pretty sure the Constitution doesn't guarantee anyone a right to a particular type of lightbulb.

And I don't know what Al Gore has earned from speaking engagements and book royalties, but I promise you it's a fraction of what he could have earned as a spokesman for an oil company or brokerage firm.

Mandating completely unproven and potentially more harmful environmental standards disguised as trying to improve the way we treat our "beloved home" should be more maddening that anything I have to say.

Nova, with very little effort one can find out that Al Gore's money is coming from the green industry he created and the companies that have arisen, not solely from speaking engagements and book royalities - arg, it's so maddening that people don't see the green jobs and carbon offset BS for what it is.

My suggestion is that we continue to develop cleaner energy, but we have to find a way to make it profitable. That's the problem, it's too expensive right now. Until then we need to become independent from the ME on oil, we have oil and we should be using it. I'm all for stopping the damn trade on crap from Chile with tons of pesticide in it when we won't allow our own growers to use it. I don't buy fruit from other lands; I support not using pesticides, I support water filters and not bottled water; those stupid twisty bulbs have MERCURY in them and I had to get rid of one the other day because it was already here when we moved in. WTF am I supposed to do with it? Like I have time to run all over to recycle it. I threw it away. So sue me. And that's what people will do and it's dangerous for the environment. I'm just so pissed at the nonsense of it all - they can put 50% mercury amalgams in teeth, but I can't buy a mercury thermometer, but I CAN buy a light bulb that when it breaks leaks mercury and is a health hazard; but I can't buy Christmas tree tinsel that contains lead.

Listen; don't assume that because I disagree with global warming which the left/greenies now very CONVENIENTLY wants to call Climate Change, that I don't care about the environment or these issues. But let's face it, Californians paying way higher fuel prices just so that ours in really, really, clean doesn't do squat for the WORLD if China, India and others aren't on board to. It's a drop in the ocean. It's plain dumb.

We can do our part but some of this stuff just flies off the common sense scale for me.

 

[Nova]

Nova, not speaking for Ziggy, but I "get" what she's saying.

If there are punishments for not doing something/doing something, that's a problem. It's gotten so that people yell at you - strangers, no less - for not "recycling", or recycling only a bit of stuff.

There are people who can't handle the twisty bulbs; medical issues, I think, like autism and epilepsy can be aggravated with the flickering of them. So should they be punished? Or do we create an entirely new government entity to approve those folks for exceptions, and then, if there is no market, how do they buy them?

I recycle. I do everything I can to prevent a high 'carbon footprint', but I still have to live my life. I can't afford one of those new cool enviro-cars, so I do what I can to bundle errands, and reduce my driving. I don't use the A/C unless indoor temps are over 85*, and I water my lawn at night. I garden, and use Tango's poop to fertilize, and I only buy farmed fish (when I buy fish...I don't like it too much). I don't use wood unless it's dead wood I've cleared from my property; I'll use fake logs instead.

I do what I can. I care; but to be punished, or prevented from, making a choice that I believe is better for me (as in the lightbulbs), does some damage to one's willingness, not to mention destroys jobs (the whole lightbulb industry has been in an uproar over the last few years).

I would use solar power (and will, someday), but right now, it's cost prohibitive and that prevents me. I would use wind power, but I don't get enough wind, and I don't have the cash (or the permits...) to get a wind tower erected at my house.

It's definitely a connundrum...I want to do what's best, but I can't afford to. I think that's what Ziggy is referring to, the difficulty and the government pressure/mandates that have occurred which make it tough to change over.

As always, imho and all that...

Best-
Herding Cats

Sorry, HC, I didn't see your post until today. I, too, do the best I can and still fall far short of doing everything that could be done.

But--and this isn't a reference to ziggy personally--every pro-environmental proposal is greeted as if it's the end of the world! Of course we'll make exceptions for epileptics if they can't use more efficient bulbs. No, everyone can't afford to simply toss their current car and buy a hybrid. I can't.

However, if we even hope to make a dent in our destruction of the environment, we're going to have to make more than cosmetic changes. And maybe we'll have to make a few sacrifices to save that last damn tree in the tree museum. Changing energy use on a global scale will require government intervention. Just as it did during World War II in response to war-driven shortages.

Will mistakes be made? No doubt. But declining to try just because science doesn't have all the answers and some of our remedies will fail is to act like a child. (That latter comment is not a reference to you OR ziggy, but a comment on how the American public in general responds to change these days.)

 

[Nova]

Mandating completely unproven and potentially more harmful environmental standards disguised as trying to improve the way we treat our "beloved home" should be more maddening that anything I have to say.

Nova, with very little effort one can find out that Al Gore's money is coming from the green industry he created and the companies that have arisen, not solely from speaking engagements and book royalities - arg, it's so maddening that people don't see the green jobs and carbon offset BS for what it is.

My suggestion is that we continue to develop cleaner energy, but we have to find a way to make it profitable. That's the problem, it's too expensive right now. Until then we need to become independent from the ME on oil, we have oil and we should be using it. I'm all for stopping the damn trade on crap from Chile with tons of pesticide in it when we won't allow our own growers to use it. I don't buy fruit from other lands; I support not using pesticides, I support water filters and not bottled water; those stupid twisty bulbs have MERCURY in them and I had to get rid of one the other day because it was already here when we moved in. WTF am I supposed to do with it? Like I have time to run all over to recycle it. I threw it away. So sue me. And that's what people will do and it's dangerous for the environment. I'm just so pissed at the nonsense of it all - they can put 50% mercury amalgams in teeth, but I can't buy a mercury thermometer, but I CAN buy a light bulb that when it breaks leaks mercury and is a health hazard; but I can't buy Christmas tree tinsel that contains lead.

Listen; don't assume that because I disagree with global warming which the left/greenies now very CONVENIENTLY wants to call Climate Change, that I don't care about the environment or these issues. But let's face it, Californians paying way higher fuel prices just so that ours in really, really, clean doesn't do squat for the WORLD if China, India and others aren't on board to. It's a drop in the ocean. It's plain dumb.

We can do our part but some of this stuff just flies off the common sense scale for me.

1. Al Gore was a rich man before he wrote An Inconvenient Truth. I doubt money was his primary motivation, but if it was, he picked the wrong side. Whatever funds are behind green tech, they are but a drop in the ocean next to the money of Big Oil. The very fact that one can so "easily" research Gore's personal finances is a testament to the propaganda machine he has been up against.

2. Of course, green tech is "too expensive right now." It hasn't had the infusion of government investment that greeted new technologies in the past, including trains, the automobile, the airplane and the internet. Where is the green tech equivalent of the interstate highway system? Green tech doesn't have the government investment because Big Oil has most of Congress on the payroll. And we have presidents who hold hands with Saudi princes.

3. As for India and China not stepping up, isn't that rather like the 7-year-old's complaint that "Johnny's mom doesn't make him eat broccoli!" You're certainly right that California can't solve the problem alone, but neither can we solve the problem by sitting back and waiting for China and India to fix everything. Let's remember that American concern for the environment (as inadequate as it is) was born out of events like the Cuyahoga River bursting into flames in the 1960s. Maybe the Ganges will have to burn before India realizes what must be done. Let's hope not.

But if we don't lead by example, well, Europe will. Maybe we'll come around when the other Third World countries do.

 

[ziggy]

1. Al Gore was a rich man before he wrote An Inconvenient Truth. I doubt money was his primary motivation, but if it was, he picked the wrong side. Whatever funds are behind green tech, they are but a drop in the ocean next to the money of Big Oil. The very fact that one can so "easily" research Gore's personal finances is a testament to the propaganda machine he has been up against.

2. Of course, green tech is "too expensive right now." It hasn't had the infusion of government investment that greeted new technologies in the past, including trains, the automobile, the airplane and the internet. Where is the green tech equivalent of the interstate highway system? Green tech doesn't have the government investment because Big Oil has most of Congress on the payroll. And we have presidents who hold hands with Saudi princes.

3. As for India and China not stepping up, isn't that rather like the 7-year-old's complaint that "Johnny's mom doesn't make him eat broccoli!" You're certainly right that California can't solve the problem alone, but neither can we solve the problem by sitting back and waiting for China and India to fix everything. Let's remember that American concern for the environment (as inadequate as it is) was born out of events like the Cuyahoga River bursting into flames in the 1960s. Maybe the Ganges will have to burn before India realizes what must be done. Let's hope not.

But if we don't lead by example, well, Europe will. Maybe we'll come around when the other Third World countries do.

Enough Al Gore the profiteer and Big Bad Oil. They make me sick on both sides. The reason you can research what Al Gore is up to so easily is because he invented the internet and BAM, there it is. :floorlaugh: If exposing his actions as cronyism and political connections that result in government mandates to adopt Al Gore's solutions to non-existent problems to line Al's pockets is propoganda in a machine, then I'll take mine with fries. eace:

Politicians, period, must be exposed.

You did overlook one problem with green energy besides lack of dollaros...it doesn't work that well...yet. Ya know car batteries die in those Volts when the temperature drops to a certain level and then you are SOL. I have not tried that converter that allows you to convert stuff to alcohol and run your car on it. I've been REALLY tempted. Apparently cat tails convert to alcohol and it's very clean. But I digress and I"m no expert. I just want my friend Nova to know that I get our enslavement to big oil, that's why we should slowly sever the relationship by using our own oil as much as possible and get some nuns to crack a knuckle if she sees any hand holding with Saudi princes. Solar panels aren't going to run the trucks around the country delivering the food and other resources. It's not so much the big oil strong hold on the politicians; it's like our whole system runs on oil and the change will have to come slowly but with something really fantastic.

As for China's dad never making them procure an Environmental Impact Study before being allowed to plant broccoli in their front yard...well, sure it sounds juvenile until you realize it has merit. We don't need to sit back, but we don't need to act so absurd as if we Must huff huff huff Knock huff huff huff Ourselves out huff huff huff and do huff huff huff crazy things in the name of green - (I was riding my bike uphill in the rain with three kids). If someone has a real plan to get them on board I'd jump up and down, but as it stands, Al's just going to rake it in on cap and trade (another really dumb idea).

Let's lead by example and not let greed ruin this plan too. But the greed plan looks the same whether it's a Dem or a Repub...Step #1 create fear that the sky is falling Step #2 Get the laws changed quickly to stop the doomsday from happening Step #3 the new laws will be better for everyones' safety - aaaanddddd....you'll have to buy this and that from these certain folks and pay more money, oh and carbon taxes for your dog there buddy, you know he leaks it out both ends. Step #5 those who were on top of that pyramid scheme now have all the power and money and we're locked in.


My dear mother was a greenie before her time...she made us recycle everything; return all the bottles and cans, organic matter to the compost, paper in a bag for lighting the wood stove, egg shells for the garden, wash and fold the foil - it's still good! Wash and store any plastic container so you never had to buy tupperware. Saved her old pantyhose and cut them up for filler to stuff pillows or little stuffed animals she would sew out of our clothing scraps. But it's got to become your culture. We shouldn't be forced and fined in this endeavor. Where is the peace and love in that? Oh, Mother was no hippie though, that was after her time. She was the tough kind the depression era formed. I know hunters and fishers who work hard to preserve the wetlands and the forests. it's just when thick rolly polly politicians start rubbing their fingers together and licking their lips over something, I wake up and take note because it's never going to be as good for us as it is for them.