GUILTY NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 #3

[LucyRocket]

It was a brief mention that someone from his family has come to support him today (presumably!). Not seen any mention of this relative being there before today.

Or maybe to see him go down

 

[jamjim]

This is it, then... Jury have been sent away to deliberate now.

 

[Mariposa]

Anyone wonder why the defense couldn’t rustle up a former romantic partner of the accused to say he was never violent or aggressive sexually?
I know the accused has no burden to put on witnesses but while he counsel was bringing info on Graces every sexual remark into the spotlight, they could have had someone say more about the defendants predilections.,, unless there is nothing good or maybe what’s being suppressed is a history of offense(s) toward women?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

RSBM

Justice Moore said if the jury believed Millane consented to the accused applying force to her neck - they must acquit the accused on both murder and manslaughter.

"It is a defence if (the accused) honestly believed Miss Millane consented to him putting pressure on her neck…. It does not matter if it was mistaken or unreasonable," he explained.

If they believe she did not consent - they must find him guilty of manslaughter.

Grace Millane murder trial: What the judge told the jury

Whoa, I don't like the sound of that. We've currently got people serving a sentence for urging someone to commit suicide or aided the suicide with consent, but the accused gets let off if Millane said, 'do it' and he it did until she died!!! Even though he hasn't even said that's what happened?!

 

[jamjim]

Or maybe to see him go down

I did think that, maybe to make sure they see him get locked up!!

 

[kem922]

This is it, then... Jury have been sent away to deliberate now.

I am really hoping they go for murder.

 

[courtkim]

Quoting myself here for anyone who's interested:

One of the current affairs shows in NZ covered the manslaughter/murder charges and how they are decided in a very concise and easy to understand way on their show last night (The Project for NZ'ers) in about 2 minutes.

Essentially the jury has what amounts to a checklist of questions they have to be able to answer "yes" to in order to find the accused guilty of murder. This list is apparently predetermined by both sides before the trial begins. If they answer "no" to any of those questions they then repeat the checklist process with a new list for the manslaughter charge.

I don't know if we know/or will ever know what the list entails.
Here's a link to the show, if you're not in NZ you may have to use a VPN but it's quite well spelled out from the 20min mark. They also did a segment with kiwi women using tinder seeing what their feelings were which I personally found really interesting and felt it was an adequate reflection of mine and my girlfriends feelings.

 

[jamjim]

Justice Simon Moore said there was no prescribed way for the jury to go about deliberations.

He said there was "no rush" for the jury to reach a verdict.

"When you've reached a verdict, you should let the court cryer know," he said.

He then explained that the foreperson would be responsible for delivering the verdict in court.

They had to deliver a guilty or not guilty verdict on the murder charge.

If that was not guilty - they would then be asked whether they found him guilty or not guilty of manslaughter.

The jury were sent out to begin their deliberations at 12.44pm

If they do not reach a verdict by 5pm they will be sent home for the weekend.

They will not be sequestered for the weekend.

Grace Millane trial: Jury retires to consider verdict

 

[LucyRocket]

And now the wait then. That's it. Everything.

 

[LucyRocket]

I wish we could see the verdict live

 

[CrazyLilBlondie]

Anyone wonder why the defense couldn’t rustle up a former romantic partner of the accused to say he was never violent or aggressive sexually?
I know the accused has no burden to put on witnesses but while he counsel was bringing info on Graces every sexual remark into the spotlight, they could have had someone say more about the defendants predilections.,, unless there is nothing good or maybe what’s being suppressed is a history of offense(s) toward women?

Probably because all of his ex’s hate him and think he’s a psycho? We don’t even know he’s ever had a real relationship - which would not be surprising! There is nothing to say his child was planned formed from a long term relationship either..

 

[Edinlass]

I am flabbergasted. That was the most transparent trial I’ve ever followed. Everything laid bare - except the accused’s name. A true eye opener.

I fear a manslaughter charge. If I were on the jury I would argue that he never went out to kill a random tinder date that night. His impulses took over in the moment so recklessness does come into it. This isn’t clear cut. I am just glad I am not on that jury.

 

[Kikixxxx]

RSBM
Whoa, I don't like the sound of that. We've currently got people serving a sentence for urging someone to commit suicide or aided the suicide with consent, but the accused gets let off if Millane said, 'do it' and he it did until she died!!! Even though he hasn't even said that's what happened?!

OMG i don't like the sound of that either. I don't know whether i'm coming or going here, the crown says if he was reckless and knew there was a real risk of her dying by choking her...and carried on anyway (which he did) then you can safely convict him of murder so i think perfect he'll 100% get found guilty ....then the judge throws that spanner in the works and says if she consented to him choking her he has to be let off and walk free? how confusing.

 

[courtkim]

I am surprised that there were no signs of a struggle... Is anyone else? I don't read these forums often so am not sure if that is common or uncommon.

I think the lack of signs of struggle, and this makes me sad to say this.. could be because she genuinely believed he was taking her "taps" or safe words as an indication to stop and was expecting it before she passed out. I kinda believe the argument alcohol probably made it happen faster than usual. That or the argument that she was held down using his knees so couldn't struggle.

Anyone wonder why the defense couldn’t rustle up a former romantic partner of the accused to say he was never violent or aggressive sexually?
I know the accused has no burden to put on witnesses but while he counsel was bringing info on Graces every sexual remark into the spotlight, they could have had someone say more about the defendants predilections.,, unless there is nothing good or maybe what’s being suppressed is a history of offense(s) toward women?

Name suppression means that the hordes that came out of the woodwork for Grace - like the random guy she matched with on Whiplr in the UK - wouldn't have even known to come forward for him.

RSBM
Whoa, I don't like the sound of that. We've currently got people serving a sentence for urging someone to commit suicide or aided the suicide with consent, but the accused gets let off if Millane said, 'do it' and he it did until she died!!! Even though he hasn't even said that's what happened?!

I think he made it pretty clear that she couldn't consent past the point of unconsciousness - which has been made clear she would have been unconscious for multiple minutes.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

He tells them that if no verdict is reached by 5pm on Friday, the jury will be allowed to go home until Monday.

The jury is then sent away to deliberate.

Grace Millane murder trial: Justice Simon Moore sums up trial before deliberations begin

It's coming up to 1pm Friday now in NZ, so we have 4 hours until the deadline, which will be 4am UK time

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I am flabbergasted. That was the most transparent trial I’ve ever followed. Everything laid bare - except the accused’s name. A true eye opener.

I fear a manslaughter charge. If I were on the jury I would argue that he never went out to kill a random tinder date that night. His impulses took over in the moment so recklessness does come into it. This isn’t clear cut. I am just glad I am not on that jury.

After all this, I feel the same. Those sitting in on the trial would have a much better idea, it's great when we have members attend a trial and give feedback, so much is missed by the media.

 

[kem922]

It's coming up to 1pm Friday now in NZ, so we have 4 hours until the deadline, which will be 4am UK time

9 pm where I am in Canada. I wonder will it be a quick decision?

 

[Mariposa]

RSBM
Whoa, I don't like the sound of that. We've currently got people serving a sentence for urging someone to commit suicide or aided the suicide with consent, but the accused gets let off if Millane said, 'do it' and he it did until she died!!! Even though he hasn't even said that's what happened?!

I think this news outlet garbled what the judge said a bit. The judge was only taking about if murder is found not to apply —they can only consider consent as to force and duration as it applies to manslaughter

the Stuff news site relates what he said more clearly imo
Grace Millane murder trial: Jury retires to consider its verdict

 

[CrazyLilBlondie]

So does every jury member have to give a guilty murder verdict or say if one person doesn’t agree what does that mean?

 

[courtkim]

Personally I think it's a clear cut case for murder based on what has been released by the media (and I acknowledge that's not everything). I think that for two reasons:

1. Strangling someone for more than a minute is 100% reckless behaviour and I don't believe anyone wouldn't know strangulation causes death.
2. Even if strangulation was Grace's idea it's a moot point. Consent ended the minute she lost consciousness which I believe would have been impossible to miss.

I mean his story is absolute but putting that aside in an unbiased appraisal that is what I believe the law says and that is what I believe equals a murder charge.