GUILTY NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 #3

[Kikixxxx]

Juries Act 1981 No 23 (as at 14 November 2018), Public Act Majority verdicts – New Zealand Legislation

In this section, majority verdict means, in relation to a jury that, at the time of its verdict, consists of a certain number of jurors, a verdict agreed to by all except one of them.

(2)

The court may accept a majority verdict in a criminal case if—

(a)
the jury, having retired to consider its verdict, has deliberated for at least 4 hours; and

(b)
the jurors have not reached a unanimous verdict; and

(c)
the foreperson of the jury has stated in open court—

(i)
that there is no probability of the jury reaching a unanimous verdict; and

(ii)
that the jury has reached a majority verdict; and

(d)
the court considers that the jury has had a period of time for deliberation that the court thinks reasonable, having regard to the nature and complexity of the trial.




it sounds like a majority in New Zealand works in the same way as Scotland, by just one juror. in England its a minimum of 10 out of the 12 ...

 

[Tortoise]

So does every jury member have to give a guilty murder verdict or say if one person doesn’t agree what does that mean?

It has to be unanimous until they've deliberated a while and told the judge they can't agree, at which point they will be instructed that a majority of 11-1 will be accepted. As far as I recall.

 

[Edinlass]

After all this, I feel the same. Those sitting in on the trial would have a much better idea, it's great when we have members attend a trial and give feedback, so much is missed by the media.

Very true. I believe it wasn’t premeditated but in NZ recklessness also results in a murder conviction (is this only in NZ because I don’t believe this is the case in UK).

Regardless, his actions immediately afterwards and the days that followed shows a guy who was cool, calm and collective and not at all panicked, for reasons unknown as yet. I just can’t come to the conclusion that Grace dying was his choice of outcome for the night and there’s where lays reasonable doubt.

I’ve never felt this way. I’m usually fully committed.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

9 pm where I am in Canada. I wonder will it be a quick decision?

Wish I was in Canada, there's no way I can stay up for this

So does every jury member have to give a guilty murder verdict or say if one person doesn’t agree what does that mean?

Good question. This article is about jury service:

In New Zealand, the jury must try to reach a unanimous verdict where everyone agrees that the defendant is guilty or not guilty. If you and the other jury members have reached a unanimous verdict, the foreperson tells the court attendant. <> The court registrar asks whether the jury all agree. You must show that you agree by saying ‘yes’.

If the jury can’t reach a unanimous verdict after a reasonable time, the judge may accept a majority verdict:

• In criminal cases, this means one juror can disagree.
• In civil cases, one-quarter of the jury can disagree.

If the verdict is not guilty, the defendant is allowed to leave.

If the verdict is guilty, the judge usually sets a date for sentencing. If the judge hasn’t set a date but you want to attend the sentencing, you can contact court staff about the details later.

If the jury can’t reach a unanimous verdict or a majority verdict, the judge may declare a hung jury and there will be a new trial with a new panel of jurors.

Jury trials in depth | New Zealand Ministry of Justice

 

[courtkim]

Very true. I believe it wasn’t premeditated but in NZ recklessness also results in a murder conviction (is this only in NZ because I don’t believe this is the case in UK).

Regardless, his actions immediately afterwards and the days that followed shows a guy who was cool, calm and collective and not at all panicked, for reasons unknown as yet. I just can’t come to the conclusion that Grace dying was his choice of outcome for the night and there’s where lays reasonable doubt.

I’ve never felt this way. I’m usually fully committed. I’m just not in this case.

But they don't have to prove intent (his choice), he could have truly never intended it. But he was reckless because he chose to take the risk. That's enough for a charge.

 

[Kikixxxx]

It has to be unanimous until they've deliberated a while and told the judge they can't agree, at which point they will be instructed that a majority of 11-1 will be accepted. As far as I recall.

oh your right - i read it wrong lol

 

[Edinlass]

But they don't have to prove intent (his choice), he could have truly never intended it. But he was reckless because he chose to take the risk. That's enough for a charge.

Good to know!

 

[Tortoise]

oh i got this wrong lol

I think it's the same as what you posted.

 

[Elainera]

I wish we could see the verdict live

And his face when it is read.

 

[courtkim]

It has to be unanimous until they've deliberated a while and told the judge they can't agree, at which point they will be instructed that a majority of 11-1 will be accepted. As far as I recall.

They will accept 10-1 if one juror has been dismissed, so 10 is the minimum in that situation.

 

[courtkim]

DBM

 

[jamjim]

I think I'll stay up for another hour and then head to bed. Wish I could stay up until 4am (UK time), but I know I'll hate myself tomorrow when I've had 1 hours sleep!!

 

[Mariposa]

I think the lack of signs of struggle, and this makes me sad to say this.. could be because she genuinely believed he was taking her "taps" or safe words as an indication to stop and was expecting it before she passed out. I kinda believe the argument alcohol probably made it happen faster than usual. That or the argument that she was held down using his knees so couldn't struggle.



Name suppression means that the hordes that came out of the woodwork for Grace - like the random guy she matched with on Whiplr in the UK - wouldn't have even known to come forward for him.



I think he made it pretty clear that she couldn't consent past the point of unconsciousness - which has been made clear she would have been unconscious for multiple minutes.

Honestly I think this defendant hit a bonanza that night. He had a Tinder match who was traveling alone just got to town day prior and not too familiar with Auckland. A local woman may have asked more questions about, say, his oil managerial details.

Plus he told her it’s your birthday we are getting smashed. (We know that as Grace texted her friends he said something to that effect. Brookie may have also said something yesterday about the accused messaging Grace that). they both drank quite a bit and he deftly steered the evening back to his room before even 10pm. He’s probably creeped out a legion of girls in his day but by her texts that night she was charmed. I don’t think he took her to his room necessarily thinking ‘You’re my murder victim” but I think he did see an opportunity to push things far and I believe the living witness’s testimony about his sexual aggression and his reaction when thwarted in it. I do think her status as a backpacker from far away made her seem more disposable to him and he thought he had a chance to get away with something without repercussions.

Personally looking forward to the name bring formally unsuppressed and the UK if not the NZ press digging into his background

 

[Kikixxxx]

Very true. I believe it wasn’t premeditated but in NZ recklessness also results in a murder conviction (is this only in NZ because I don’t believe this is the case in UK).

Regardless, his actions immediately afterwards and the days that followed shows a guy who was cool, calm and collective and not at all panicked, for reasons unknown as yet. I just can’t come to the conclusion that Grace dying was his choice of outcome for the night and there’s where lays reasonable doubt.

I’ve never felt this way. I’m usually fully committed.

what a complete head this case has been honestly, yesterday i would have bet my house on him being found guilty, now i fear a manslaughter verdict too !! he didn't go out that night to murder her lets be honest, his intention wasn't for her to die i don't think, i think he got carried away in his own sexual pleasures to realise what he was doing or that it was becoming dangerous for Grace.... does this still count as murder?

 

[courtkim]

what a complete head **** this case has been honestly, yesterday i would have bet my house on him being found guilty, now i fear a manslaughter verdict too !! he didn't go out that night to murder her lets be honest, his intention wasn't for her to die i don't think, i think he got carried away in his own sexual pleasures to realise what he was doing or that it was becoming dangerous for Grace.... does this still count as murder?

Yup, he took the risk to do something that causes death

 

[legal.beagle]

what a complete head **** this case has been honestly, yesterday i would have bet my house on him being found guilty, now i fear a manslaughter verdict too !! he didn't go out that night to murder her lets be honest, his intention wasn't for her to die i don't think, i think he got carried away in his own sexual pleasures to realise what he was doing or that it was becoming dangerous for Grace.... does this still count as murder?

Right?! I keep being swayed back and forth - I'm not so sure either way now. Yesterday, I thought Brookies defence was an absolute joke but after hearing the Judge's summing up I guess the defence kind of make sense; just throwing general doubt in there. I don't know whether I'm coming or going at this stage.

 

[Edinlass]

what a complete head **** this case has been honestly, yesterday i would have bet my house on him being found guilty, now i fear a manslaughter verdict too !! he didn't go out that night to murder her lets be honest, his intention wasn't for her to die i don't think, i think he got carried away in his own sexual pleasures to realise what he was doing or that it was becoming dangerous for Grace.... does this still count as murder?

I’m with you. My head is mashed and I was genuinely scared writing that post for fear of a backlash. I’m just so confused.

Yeah, recklessness also counts as murder in NZ from what I can gather.

I keep going back to all his actions afterwards and they for me point at a murderer wanting to clear up his actions.

It is a head your so right! I’m so back and forth with this I don’t know if I’m here nor there. Imagine the jury, we can’t be the only ones. There was me saying this was clear cut for the jury.

 

[courtkim]

Personally looking forward to the name bring formally unsuppressed and the UK if not the NZ press digging into his background

ME TOO!!!

 

[Mariposa]

what a complete head **** this case has been honestly, yesterday i would have bet my house on him being found guilty, now i fear a manslaughter verdict too !! he didn't go out that night to murder her lets be honest, his intention wasn't for her to die i don't think, i think he got carried away in his own sexual pleasures to realise what he was doing or that it was becoming dangerous for Grace.... does this still count as murder?

I think it still counts—like courtkim said everybody knows putting hands tight on a neck for too long is dangerous— and you keep it up you are taking a reckless course of action that can easily kill— that fills one of the definitions of murder given.
Getting too turned on by the strangling to stop wouldn’t change the above principle

 

[CrazyLilBlondie]

Thanks for everyone providing information and knowledge tonight. Don’t think I’ll be sleeping properly tonight in the UK for sure.