Found Deceased NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 *Arrest*

[otto]

For those who are unfamiliar with Auckland

AKL has a vast urban sprawl so there are not really any rural dumping sites unless he wanted to drive a long way.

The Waitakere Ranges are a regional park of preserved native bush so is an obvious place to try to dispose of a body - but also super close to Auckland. Before the Auckland super city Waitakere City was the 5th largest city in NZ, so this is really part of Auckland.

In my opinion this speaks more to a panicked dumping that any coherent plan.

Standing alone, it does look like "panicked dumping." When you factor in the other girl, the hotel room, the rental car, the previous body found in the same area, the predatory nature and the lengths that this man went to in order to hide his crime - such as facebooking 11 minutes before he took her to her death in the hotel room, it doesn't look panicked anymore.

 

[mrjitty]

"The week-long search for the 22-year-old backpacker from Essex took a tragic turn yesterday [Saturday] when Auckland police said at a 5pm press conference they believed she had been murdered. They said they had taken a man into custody at 3pm and were speaking to him in relation to the murder of Millane.

They then about 9pm said the man would be charged."
Car the key to Grace Millane's alleged murder - former police inspector

So they were interviewing (interrogating) him on Saturday, and holding ever more ominous press conferences as they did so. They announced he 'would be' charged. I find that fairly extraordinary, actually, normally LE only announce after charges have been laid, not before.

I wonder whether this was part of a process of putting pressure on him to tell them where her body was.

Not that this all matters overly but it was interesting to walk back the interviews and be able to read between the lines with the benefit of hindsight

IMO it is clear (with hindsight) by the Saturday am presser that this is a murder inquiry. But as you say, not revealed until Saturday afternoon, and then they will already ID the disposal site by Saturday nite.

Would love to know what they got off CCTV and maybe what the accused might have had in his possession

 

[mrjitty]

Do you have some stats that say Australians and New Zealanders are any more prone to domestic violence than say Canadians or Americans?
His mother is a NZer who lives in Australia as many do.

This is all in red herring.

The victim and accused were not in a domestic relationship

 

[mrjitty]

I think we should not jump to conclusions.

It will be interesting as to what emerges about this guy's previous behaviour

From what we know about him so far, women felt unsafe with him, but we don't have anything specific in the predatory direction

 

[asyousay]

I think we should not jump to conclusions.

It will be interesting as to what emerges about this guy's previous behaviour

From what we know about him so far, women felt unsafe with him, but we don't have anything specific in the predatory direction

Well his previous behavior is already coming to light and it doesn’t paint a very pretty picture.

I can’t post the article as it names him but a Softball teammate has said

“ he was creepy and obsessed with girls”

 

[mrjitty]

Well his previous behavior is already coming to light and it doesn’t paint a very pretty picture.

I can’t post the article as it names him but a Softball teammate has said

“ he was creepy and obsessed with girls”

Yes - but doubtful if this would be admissible.

 

[suzyjackson]

Standing alone, it does look like "panicked dumping." When you factor in the other girl, the hotel room, the rental car, the previous body found in the same area, the predatory nature and the lengths that this man went to in order to hide his crime - such as facebooking 11 minutes before he took her to her death in the hotel room, it doesn't look panicked anymore.

Do we know that she was killed in the hotel room (or apartment as has been mentioned in some MSM), do we know that's where they went at 9.40pm?

Time will tell but I'll be very surprised if the facebook comment was made in any way as part of a murder plan. IMO it was a panicked dumping and the accused isn't a smart criminal. It would appear he's someone without strong routes anywhere, why did he stick around to be caught?

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

It would be helpful if incorrect information was not posted in the thread

The accused was only charged with murder AFTER the body was discovered. This is typical for murder cases. At this point the police had the picture at the hotel, forensics from the room, and the hire car directly linking him to the disposal of the corpse. This is easily sufficient to persuade a District Court Judge to remand the accused into custody awaiting trial for murder. We don't know what the room forensics were, but I would say the police didn't actually need 100% evidence how she died in the room at that stage. Finding the body gives them cause of death.



Backpacker murder accused in court

I am intrigued that the police spoke to the POI and announced "no evidence of foul play" but then arrested him it seems like the following day. Would they have made that first statement without looking at his room at the hotel? I suppose he had time to do a clean up.

 

[libramoon175]

There's so much we don't know right now.

We don't even know if they met for the first time that night, or had been in contact before, or met before. We're speculating that he planned to murder the other girl and when she changed her plans, he killed Grace instead. We don't know how credible she is, or even who she is - she could very well be after her 15 minutes. After all, why would you call the sleaziest tabloid in town and tell them your story, and not just go straight to police? This may be out of line and not true, but we just don't know. The worst thing we can do, IMO, is make assumptions.

Equally, all these comments about him being creepy and obsessed with girls mean nothing. Literally nothing. For every one person who says something like that, there'll be ten more people at home thinking 'God, he was the nicest guy, I never would have guessed'. What's more, I've met probably a hundred guys over the course of my life who were creepy, obsessive, compulsive liars. It doesn't mean they were serial killers. This is exactly why the name suppression is in place. Murderer or not, he shouldn't walk into a room full of jurors who already think he's a psychopath based on what his 'softball teammate' told a 3rd-grade reading level publication. That's not justice.

I also don't see any indication that this was planned. I'm not saying it wasn't, but there's no evidence of that (that we're aware of). If I was going to murder someone I wouldn't post on their Facebook 11 minutes before meeting them. I also wouldn't do it in my own home/place I'm staying. I also wouldn't dump a body in a field or woodland area because that's where 82%* of bodies in the history of crime shows have been found (*may not be accurate.)

 

[mrjitty]

I am intrigued that the police spoke to the POI and announced "no evidence of foul play" but then arrested him it seems like the following day. Would they have made that first statement without looking at his room at the hotel? I suppose he had time to do a clean up.

This is part of the tactics of missing person inquiries

So long as it remains "missing person" the police can proceed on the basis that there is no conclusive evidence a crime has been committed.

This is useful when a person of interest is "assisting them with their inquiries"

So in fact the Police might delay the upgrade to murder inquiry as long as possible.

 

[mrjitty]

There's so much we don't know right now.

We don't even know if they met for the first time that night, or had been in contact before, or met before. We're speculating that he planned to murder the other girl and when she changed her plans, he killed Grace instead. We don't know how credible she is, or even who she is - she could very well be after her 15 minutes. After all, why would you call the sleaziest tabloid in town and tell them your story, and not just go straight to police? This may be out of line and not true, but we just don't know. The worst thing we can do, IMO, is make assumptions.

Equally, all these comments about him being creepy and obsessed with girls mean nothing. Literally nothing. For every one person who says something like that, there'll be ten more people at home thinking 'God, he was the nicest guy, I never would have guessed'. What's more, I've met probably a hundred guys over the course of my life who were creepy, obsessive, compulsive liars. It doesn't mean they were serial killers. This is exactly why the name suppression is in place. Murderer or not, he shouldn't walk into a room full of jurors who already think he's a psychopath based on what his 'softball teammate' told a 3rd-grade reading level publication. That's not justice.

I also don't see any indication that this was planned. I'm not saying it wasn't, but there's no evidence of that (that we're aware of). If I was going to murder someone I wouldn't post on their Facebook 11 minutes before meeting them. I also wouldn't do it in my own home/place I'm staying. I also wouldn't dump a body in a field or woodland area because that's where 82%* of bodies in the history of crime shows have been found (*may not be accurate.)

Yes. Great post.

And I agree with the tabloid garbage.

Lot's of that stuff won't be admissible.

 

[TheLondonEye]

Hi everyone,

It’s my first time posting here. I’ve been very invested in this story as I myself am in my mid-20’s and travel solo regularly.

Unfortunately when this story first came out I knew she was dead immediately. There are very few first-time solo travellers that will go to the other side of the world and do something spontaneous for a few days to celebrate their birthday when they’ve just arrived in a new city. With a hostel full of people to meet there’s no way you’d choose to spend such an important day with a Tinder date you barely know.

Here is my theory about what happened:

I think that she may have mentioned to the accused that her birthday was coming up and he offered to take her for a few drinks to celebrate. She might have agreed with the view that she could get a bit tipsy and then go out partying with people from the hostel later on in the evening, possibly bringing him along if things went well. Considering they were only together for two hours before they went to his room, I don’t think she agreed to do something sexual in such a short time. If he did indeed have a room there he may have indicated he was going upstairs to retrieve something and invited her up so she didn’t have to wait alone downstairs. With her guard down a little from a few drinks, she might have agreed and go up to his room but with no intentions other than to chat with him whilst he retrieved an item/got changed.

Now, it’s been debated here as to whether this crime was premeditated. My instincts say that it wasn’t. I think that once she was in the room he may have come on to her and was either rejected immediately or rejected somewhere down the line (kissing but no further) and then snapped. It’s a possibility that he raped her and then killed her to cover it up, or assaulted her to stop her from leaving and killed her accidentally.

The hiring of the rental car indicates to me that he didn’t intend on murdering her and panicked, doing the least logical thing possible and just wanting to dispose of the evidence of what had happened ASAP. Somebody planning a murder would have rented a vehicle days before or lured their victim away from a massively busy hotel and killed them close to the burial site. His previous use of dating sites and the reports of his constant lying indicate to me that he is a fantasist who fancies himself as a bit of a playboy. I think he views women as disposable and as a consequence doesn’t handle rejection particularly well.

The way that things occurred in the investigation lead me to believe that when police arrested him initially they already knew he had murdered her. They released the statement about ‘no foul play’ to trick him into thinking he’d gotten away with it, and then tracked his movements once he left the police station. Something he said or did during that time clearly gave them what they needed to charge him with her murder - I suspect he may have revisited the area in which she was buried.

 

[Blueberry2720]

. . . and that was before they tracked the gps phone signals to the body . . .

This is the first I have heard of this - source/link please?

 

[Blueberry2720]

Wait, what? How do people know the pink bracelet was for a gambling event? Link?

It was in the press somewhere - I will try to find. Apparently the bracelet was for a $5,000 drawing later that night in one of the casinos.

 

[libramoon175]

Hi everyone,

It’s my first time posting here. I’ve been very invested in this story as I myself am in my mid-20’s and travel solo regularly.

Unfortunately when this story first came out I knew she was dead immediately. There are very few first-time solo travellers that will go to the other side of the world and do something spontaneous for a few days to celebrate their birthday when they’ve just arrived in a new city. With a hostel full of people to meet there’s no way you’d choose to spend such an important day with a Tinder date you barely know.

Here is my theory about what happened:

I think that she may have mentioned to the accused that her birthday was coming up and he offered to take her for a few drinks to celebrate. She might have agreed with the view that she could get a bit tipsy and then go out partying with people from the hostel later on in the evening, possibly bringing him along if things went well. Considering they were only together for two hours before they went to his room, I don’t think she agreed to do something sexual in such a short time. If he did indeed have a room there he may have indicated he was going upstairs to retrieve something and invited her up so she didn’t have to wait alone downstairs. With her guard down a little from a few drinks, she might have agreed and go up to his room but with no intentions other than to chat with him whilst he retrieved an item/got changed.

Now, it’s been debated here as to whether this crime was premeditated. My instincts say that it wasn’t. I think that once she was in the room he may have come on to her and was either rejected immediately or rejected somewhere down the line (kissing but no further) and then snapped. It’s a possibility that he raped her and then killed her to cover it up, or assaulted her to stop her from leaving and killed her accidentally.

The hiring of the rental car indicates to me that he didn’t intend on murdering her and panicked, doing the least logical thing possible and just wanting to dispose of the evidence of what had happened ASAP. Somebody planning a murder would have rented a vehicle days before or lured their victim away from a massively busy hotel and killed them close to the burial site. His previous use of dating sites and the reports of his constant lying indicate to me that he is a fantasist who fancies himself as a bit of a playboy. I think he views women as disposable and as a consequence doesn’t handle rejection particularly well.

The way that things occurred in the investigation lead me to believe that when police arrested him initially they already knew he had murdered her. They released the statement about ‘no foul play’ to trick him into thinking he’d gotten away with it, and then tracked his movements once he left the police station. Something he said or did during that time clearly gave them what they needed to charge him with her murder - I suspect he may have revisited the area in which she was buried.

1. How do we know they barely knew each other? Has it been confirmed that that night was their first meeting? Have previous meetings been ruled out, or previous contact?
2. Again, I'm going to caution against using thirdhand statements from other people about his character as indications about what may or may not have happened.
3. 'someone planning a murder would have...' We don't know and shouldn't assume this.
4. What evidence do you have to suspect he revisited the area?
5. It's big jump from using dating sites and lying to viewing women as disposable and not handling rejection. This is ALL conjecture.

You're making so many assumptions and jumping to conclusions. It's frankly not helpful at all. We don't *know* what Grace would or wouldn't have planned for her birthday - which was December 2, btw, so not the same day she went missing.

 

[mrjitty]

The way that things occurred in the investigation lead me to believe that when police arrested him initially they already knew he had murdered her. They released the statement about ‘no foul play’ to trick him into thinking he’d gotten away with it, and then tracked his movements once he left the police station. Something he said or did during that time clearly gave them what they needed to charge him with her murder - I suspect he may have revisited the area in which she was buried.

Welcome aboard!

I agree that he probably tricked her to come up to his apartment in between going somewhere else.

A small point on the above.

He wasn't arrested on the Friday. He was 'assisting with inquiries'. So he probably just left when he felt like it.

This has happened in many of the cases I have followed.

They get the suspect in and he cooperates - so the police spin this out for as long as possible. But if they haven't got the goods yet, then they have to let him go

As soon as you arrest, lawyers are inbound and the clock starts ticking to have the accused in front of a judge - so typically that step is left until you have the body.

 

[TheLondonEye]

1. How do we know they barely knew each other? Has it been confirmed that that night was their first meeting? Have previous meetings been ruled out, or previous contact?
2. Again, I'm going to caution against using thirdhand statements from other people about his character as indications about what may or may not have happened.
3. 'someone planning a murder would have...' We don't know and shouldn't assume this.
4. What evidence do you have to suspect he revisited the area?
5. It's big jump from using dating sites and lying to viewing women as disposable and not handling rejection. This is ALL conjecture.

You're making so many assumptions and jumping to conclusions. It's frankly not helpful at all. We don't *know* what Grace would or wouldn't have planned for her birthday - which was December 2, btw, so not the same day she went missing.

Of course I'm making assumptions. I did say beforehand I had a theory. I thought this was a forum in which we could discuss possibilities? That's why I said 'I suspect', 'I think', 'perhaps' etc.

Jeez...

 

[mrjitty]

1. How do we know they barely knew each other? Has it been confirmed that that night was their first meeting? Have previous meetings been ruled out, or previous contact?

At this stage Police have only confirmed they were at several places together on Sat evening before City Life Hotel

 

[TheLondonEye]

Welcome aboard!

I agree that he probably tricked her to come up to his apartment in between going somewhere else.

A small point on the above.

He wasn't arrested on the Friday. He was 'assisting with inquiries'. So he probably just left when he felt like it.

This has happened in many of the cases I have followed.

They get the suspect in and he cooperates - so the police spin this out for as long as possible. But if they haven't got the goods yet, then they have to let him go

As soon as you arrest, lawyers are inbound and the clock starts ticking to have the accused in front of a judge - so typically that step is left until you have the body.

Ah, yes! That was the terminology I was looking for, thank you. I'm not too well-versed in legal process. It's a very sad and interesting case. It will be intriguing to find out what actually happened in the coming weeks and months.

 

[libramoon175]

Of course I'm making assumptions. I did say beforehand I had a theory. I thought this was a forum in which we could discuss possibilities? That's why I said 'I suspect', 'I think', 'perhaps' etc.

Jeez...

Yes, based on facts we already have. You say:
"Unfortunately when this story first came out I knew she was dead immediately. There are very few first-time solo travellers that will go to the other side of the world and do something spontaneous for a few days to celebrate their birthday when they’ve just arrived in a new city. With a hostel full of people to meet there’s no way you’d choose to spend such an important day with a Tinder date you barely know."

You didn't know she was dead immediately. You suspected it. So did many of us. But you're presenting these things as facts when they're not. Many people go to new cities and choose to spend their evenings out in social situations, meeting new people. She likely wouldn't have known the people in the hostel well at that point, so why would she be more likely to spend a night with them?

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