Identified! NH - Allenstown, Adult Female, 23-33, & 3 Children, Marlyse Honeychurch, Marie Vaughn, Sarah McWaters, Rea Rasmussen

[forthevictims]

Barbara Rae-Venter is the genetic genealogist working on identifying the last unidentified Bear Brook victim.

 

[jennytrevor]

Oooh, how wonderful! I didn't realise that three had already been identified. Thank you for your message.

I highly recommend the podcast Bear Brook if you'd like to learn more about Terry Rasmussen and the search to find these victims identities. It's one of the best true crime/investigative podcasts I've heard.

 

[fidgeypie]

With all of the identifications this year and the arrest of Lisk, I cannot help but feel that baby girls name is coming. It's been such a long time coming.

 

[jennytrevor]

What is the current status of the familial genealogy investigation into MC's identity? Is there a way to check up on this?

 

[AliceInPain]

What is the current status of the familial genealogy investigation into MC's identity? Is there a way to check up on this?

Barbara Rae-Venter & co usually keep quiet until they're 100% who it is (and they have permission from LE to release it).
I think this one may be extra difficult since we got a few snippets about her ethnicity, ancestors and area, possibly someone along the line was adopted or born out of wedlock. Or maybe someone was disowned and never mentioned in the family again. ?

btw BRV wrote a book - "I Know Who You Are" - about her work on a few cases including this one/ TPR, has anyone read it?

 

[Walkingproof]

IF (as suggested in the above post) “it is possible Rasmussen and the Unknown mother were living in Texas when the UID was born”, and IF he “was pretty much using his real name up until 1978 or 1979 when he appears in New Hampshire as Bob Evans”, it seems that checking 1976 - 1977 birth records at hospitals near where he lived might turn up a birth record where he is listed as the father. Perhaps this has already been done (I am familiar with this case but am new to this thread - and apologize in advance if I am opening up an old rabbit hole).

I wonder if, when Rasmussen told his family he was living at the Casa Del Rey Apartments in Ingleside, TX, he could have been generalizing. When I look online for Casa Del Rey Apartments, the search results all come back showing a location in Kingsville, TX. Perhaps Rasmussen was living in Kingsville, TX - but working for Brown & Root in, or out of, Ingleside, TX. The two places are approx 45 miles apart.

The closest hospital I can find in Kingsville, TX (that was in existence at the time) was the Spohn-Kleburg Memorial Hospital. Apparently the hospital’s maternity services were moved to a new “south side” location in 1994, but maybe records from before the move are still available.

All jmo

"June 1978 - Rasmussen works for the "Brown & Root" Company in Houston, Texas. Records there indicate Rasmussen quit the job to work elsewhere." I have researched many cases I believe my father was connected to. One case that has received limited attention is Gayle Cater who went missing in October 1978. What stands out to me is the fact that she worked at Brown and Root. You can search her on here for more of her story. for sure a noteworthy connection.

 

[AliceInPain]

"June 1978 - Rasmussen works for the "Brown & Root" Company in Houston, Texas. Records there indicate Rasmussen quit the job to work elsewhere." I have researched many cases I believe my father was connected to. One case that has received limited attention is Gayle Cater who went missing in October 1978. What stands out to me is the fact that she worked at Brown and Root. You can search her on here for more of her story. for sure a noteworthy connection.

I don't think that first bit of information is correct.
TR worked for Brown & Root, their main offices were in Houston, but they had a plant in Ingleside where TR had informed his family he lived, when he last saw them in 75/76. It was I think straight down the road from the apartment where he'd said he lived, so makes the Ingleside location more likely to me.
He contacted an old friend in June 1978 to ask to borrow money, same month that he quit his job, and likely (imo) went straight from there to California where he soon met (or had previously already met or known about?) Marlyse anytime from then until November.
Timeline (and a few other things) don't add up for me.

Link to Gayle Cater's thread on WS:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/murder-of-gayle-cater-la-marque-30-sept-1978-connecting-the-dots.258787/

 

[cheshire84]

What is the current status of the familial genealogy investigation into MC's identity? Is there a way to check up on this?

I went to a conference where Barbara Rae-Venter was a speaker last month-she indicated that the middle child has very poor matches and a lot of endogamy (a fancy way of saying everyone in her family is very closely related and intermarried so the DNA makes you look more closely related than you are necessarily). they are still working on it but its one of those ones that will take a long time because with the matches they have, its thousands and thousands of people to comb through.

 

[jennytrevor]

I went to a conference where Barbara Rae-Venter was a speaker last month-she indicated that the middle child has very poor matches and a lot of endogamy (a fancy way of saying everyone in her family is very closely related and intermarried so the DNA makes you look more closely related than you are necessarily). they are still working on it but its one of those ones that will take a long time because with the matches they have, its thousands and thousands of people to comb through.

I wish/wonder if it's possible for her to request DNA comparisons with people from a few of the potential branches, just to narrow it down a bit.

 

[Alleykins]

I wish/wonder if it's possible for her to request DNA comparisons with people from a few of the potential branches, just to narrow it down a bit.

I'm fairly certain they've contacted living descendants of the common ancestors to see how closely, if at all, they match. We've heard that certain branches of the Livings line, where it crosses over into the Mitchell line, have been eliminated. For example, Clara Burton was TJ Mitchell's granddaughter, and she married a Livings, descended from William Livings, but I believe that connection was ruled out by comparing the MC's DNA with their gr gr grandson's DNA.

The MC's extended family is HUGE. These people had big families, whose kids also had big families, and some of them lived a very long time, on top of marrying their cousins. A lot. We're talking branches going Smith-Jones, Jones-Smith, Jones-Jones, Smith-Jones, the surnames flip-flopping every generation with the occasional infusion from a person from away mixed in. You're eyes are crossed by the time you're done figuring that one out on paper, can't imagine trying to untangle that genetically.

When I was digging around, what I felt would have been helpful to narrow down the search was knowing whether or not the MC was descended from the children born within the Mitchell/Livings known marriages. And also to what extent she was related to a handful of other extremely common surnames that they kept marrying into, namely Spiers. I sent an email to BRV's team asking for just a few more bread crumbs, but never received a reply. Perhaps they didn't know or were too busy to answer, but it would have narrowed down the playing field, in my way of thinking, anyway. I'm hardly a genealogist, I just enjoy research, so I'm thinking my efforts stunk because I didn't know what I was doing. I set it aside for a bit because it felt like I was throwing darts at a USA sized wall, blindfolded.

The MC's family history is very interesting, though. TJ Mitchell didn't marry until his 30s, and I find it difficult to believe he didn't leave a parting gift or two with one of the families he couch surfed with up until he joined the Civil War. I think there was one census where the Mitchells, Livings, and Spiers were living within spitting distance of each other, so it's hard telling how that played out behind closed doors. One ancestor was from my neck of the woods, all the way up here in Maine, before Maine was a state, and his family is buried in the next town over. That was cool to learn. It's been fun digging into the MC's ancestors, but I felt like I couldn't make any more headway without more direction.

 

[jennytrevor]

I'm fairly certain they've contacted living descendants of the common ancestors to see how closely, if at all, they match. We've heard that certain branches of the Livings line, where it crosses over into the Mitchell line, have been eliminated. For example, Clara Burton was TJ Mitchell's granddaughter, and she married a Livings, descended from William Livings, but I believe that connection was ruled out by comparing the MC's DNA with their gr gr grandson's DNA.

The MC's extended family is HUGE. These people had big families, whose kids also had big families, and some of them lived a very long time, on top of marrying their cousins. A lot. We're talking branches going Smith-Jones, Jones-Smith, Jones-Jones, Smith-Jones, the surnames flip-flopping every generation with the occasional infusion from a person from away mixed in. You're eyes are crossed by the time you're done figuring that one out on paper, can't imagine trying to untangle that genetically.

When I was digging around, what I felt would have been helpful to narrow down the search was knowing whether or not the MC was descended from the children born within the Mitchell/Livings known marriages. And also to what extent she was related to a handful of other extremely common surnames that they kept marrying into, namely Spiers. I sent an email to BRV's team asking for just a few more bread crumbs, but never received a reply. Perhaps they didn't know or were too busy to answer, but it would have narrowed down the playing field, in my way of thinking, anyway. I'm hardly a genealogist, I just enjoy research, so I'm thinking my efforts stunk because I didn't know what I was doing. I set it aside for a bit because it felt like I was throwing darts at a USA sized wall, blindfolded.

The MC's family history is very interesting, though. TJ Mitchell didn't marry until his 30s, and I find it difficult to believe he didn't leave a parting gift or two with one of the families he couch surfed with up until he joined the Civil War. I think there was one census where the Mitchells, Livings, and Spiers were living within spitting distance of each other, so it's hard telling how that played out behind closed doors. One ancestor was from my neck of the woods, all the way up here in Maine, before Maine was a state, and his family is buried in the next town over. That was cool to learn. It's been fun digging into the MC's ancestors, but I felt like I couldn't make any more headway without more direction.

Thank you for the great answer!

I completely understand why BRV would keep details private, but damn, I just wish we could get all the info!

 

[Alleykins]

Thank you for the great answer!

I completely understand why BRV would keep details private, but damn, I just wish we could get all the info!

I don't understand why the details are being kept quiet. Maybe not give away the shop, I think they've amassed quite a trove of information, but a few more nuggets wouldn't hurt. The way I see it, this isn't a criminal investigation, the person who killed the MC is dead. Giving away even a smidge more clarifying information isn't going to jeopardize the case or take away from its integrity, as far as I can tell. If anything, fresh eyes might reinvigorate things. Investigators released the Mitchell/Livings information in hopes of generating leads, putting out a public plea for help, so I personally don't see why all the secrecy.

 

[cheshire84]

I'm fairly certain they've contacted living descendants of the common ancestors to see how closely, if at all, they match. We've heard that certain branches of the Livings line, where it crosses over into the Mitchell line, have been eliminated. For example, Clara Burton was TJ Mitchell's granddaughter, and she married a Livings, descended from William Livings, but I believe that connection was ruled out by comparing the MC's DNA with their gr gr grandson's DNA.

The MC's extended family is HUGE. These people had big families, whose kids also had big families, and some of them lived a very long time, on top of marrying their cousins. A lot. We're talking branches going Smith-Jones, Jones-Smith, Jones-Jones, Smith-Jones, the surnames flip-flopping every generation with the occasional infusion from a person from away mixed in. You're eyes are crossed by the time you're done figuring that one out on paper, can't imagine trying to untangle that genetically.

When I was digging around, what I felt would have been helpful to narrow down the search was knowing whether or not the MC was descended from the children born within the Mitchell/Livings known marriages. And also to what extent she was related to a handful of other extremely common surnames that they kept marrying into, namely Spiers. I sent an email to BRV's team asking for just a few more bread crumbs, but never received a reply. Perhaps they didn't know or were too busy to answer, but it would have narrowed down the playing field, in my way of thinking, anyway. I'm hardly a genealogist, I just enjoy research, so I'm thinking my efforts stunk because I didn't know what I was doing. I set it aside for a bit because it felt like I was throwing darts at a USA sized wall, blindfolded.

The MC's family history is very interesting, though. TJ Mitchell didn't marry until his 30s, and I find it difficult to believe he didn't leave a parting gift or two with one of the families he couch surfed with up until he joined the Civil War. I think there was one census where the Mitchells, Livings, and Spiers were living within spitting distance of each other, so it's hard telling how that played out behind closed doors. One ancestor was from my neck of the woods, all the way up here in Maine, before Maine was a state, and his family is buried in the next town over. That was cool to learn. It's been fun digging into the MC's ancestors, but I felt like I couldn't make any more headway without more direction.

 

[cheshire84]

I messed with the tree a lot-both the livings and the mitchell families are HUGE-I know she does some target testing, but they haven't hit on the right line. I do some volunteer genetic genealogy and I'm working on a case right now thats related to the Alabama area-there are not a ton of people that are psyched to upload their DNA for this type of stuff. The endogamy is painstaking.

 

[cheshire84]

Personally, another thing I am very interested in is military records. I put in a request with the military for Rasmussen's info-I can't find it on Fold3 or anything like that, but I'd love to see who he served with and potentially any connections he formed in the south.

 

[Earth]

Complicated family tree? To be honest, I thought something like this had happened.

 

[jennytrevor]

So what is the closest living ancestor we know for sure for MC?

It is so interesting for me to hear about the work some of you in the thread are doing. I love internet research and learning about genealogy, but don't have strong background in it. I wish I could work in the field!

 

[Tired Professor]

So what is the closest living ancestor we know for sure for MC?

It is so interesting for me to hear about the work some of you in the thread are doing. I love internet research and learning about genealogy, but don't have strong background in it. I wish I could work in the field!

Quite a while ago there was a female’s name listed on one of these threads as being the closest match. But it was only like 100 something Centimorgans IIRC. I believe the post was deleted because we couldn’t mention the actual name of that person. Hopefully by now, they have a closer match.

 

[Alleykins]

Quite a while ago there was a female’s name listed on one of these threads as being the closest match. But it was only like 100 something Centimorgans IIRC. I believe the post was deleted because we couldn’t mention the actual name of that person. Hopefully by now, they have a closer match.

Yes, the closest match I recall is 114, and if it's the one I'm thinking it is, she had the gr gr grandfather from my neck of the woods.

ETA: I hope they've found a closer match by now, too. Because of the endogamy, it probably appears a closer relationship than it is.

 

[Walkingproof]

I don't think that first bit of information is correct.
TR worked for Brown & Root, their main offices were in Houston, but they had a plant in Ingleside where TR had informed his family he lived, when he last saw them in 75/76. It was I think straight down the road from the apartment where he'd said he lived, so makes the Ingleside location more likely to me.
He contacted an old friend in June 1978 to ask to borrow money, same month that he quit his job, and likely (imo) went straight from there to California where he soon met (or had previously already met or known about?) Marlyse anytime from then until November.
Timeline (and a few other things) don't add up for me.

Link to Gayle Cater's thread on WS:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/murder-of-gayle-cater-la-marque-30-sept-1978-connecting-the-dots.258

I don't think that first bit of information is correct.
TR worked for Brown & Root, their main offices were in Houston, but they had a plant in Ingleside where TR had informed his family he lived, when he last saw them in 75/76. It was I think straight down the road from the apartment where he'd said he lived, so makes the Ingleside location more likely to me.
He contacted an old friend in June 1978 to ask to borrow money, same month that he quit his job, and likely (imo) went straight from there to California where he soon met (or had previously already met or known about?) Marlyse anytime from then until November.
Timeline (and a few other things) don't add up for me.

Link to Gayle Cater's thread on WS:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/murder-of-gayle-cater-la-marque-30-sept-1978-connecting-the-dots.258787/

Gotcha. I have not looked into Terry's case all that closely. The below timeline posted online suggested that he was employed at brown and root June 1978. I don't know how solid the info is but here it is see link https://www.doj.nh.gov/news/2017/documents/20171102-allenstown-manchester-timeline.pdf