NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[McSpy]

The Department of Fish and Game, along with the NH state police, canvassed the White Mountains, specifically Mt. Washington area, quite extensively. It was a big operation, both times. They found a body near the summit of Mount Washington. Wasn't her, of course. But the area was searched so well (not just by them but by the 10 years of hikers, hunters, trappers, that I'm pretty certain her body is not up there.

I disagree. They miss bodies all the time in massive wooded areas. She could also be on private property where the property owner doesn't allow hunting. One problem is that her remains could be covered with 10 years of leaves and debris. The climate can be pretty harsh and those woods experience 4 very distinct seasons every year. If she is out there, it will take a miracle to find her, unfortunately.

JMO

 

[nevereverever]

People who commit suicide do sometimes form a whole plan to do it, including a trip. Some people check into a hotel, because they don't want to be found by a loved one (either because they don't want to be saved or to spare the loved one or both). Some people have actually traveled all the way to another city, for example, to jump from the Golden Gate Bridge. It may not be the norm, but it is not unheard of. It's also possible she emailed the school people about the "family emergency" that would keep her away for a week because she didn't want anyone running off to look for her immediately, so she could complete her plan.

I am 90% certain that Maura's plan was to commit suicide. I think the car accident interrupted that plan. I still think it's likely she then just improvised and did ultimately commit suicide, most likely by succumbing to the elements. But, I don't rule out the possibility that she met with foul play after her initial plan went awry. It would have been one hell of a coincidence, but this is a very unusual case, so who knows.

 

[Lolacat]

Eerie similarities in the case of Teleka Patrick in Michigan. I am not trying to draw a connection to Maura but the headline did grab my attention.

For the NH LE haters, LE found her car abandoned in a ditch around 10pm, did not search for her until she was reported missing the next day when she did not show up for work. Police S.O.P., not ineptness.

http://www.ibtimes.com/teleka-patri...-after-receiving-mysterious-call-work-1517596

The similarities between these two cases are chilling. Both received upsetting phone calls in the days leading up to their disappearance. Both went on what appears to be a spontaneous trip in their car. Both cars are eventually found abandoned with a small time frame for them to disappear. Dogs tracked both of their scents for a very small distance before it disappeared. Neither told family or friends of their plans. Baffling.

 

[BillNH]

I am merely pointing out that it would be a bizarre way to commit suicide, based upon how people usually commit suicide. It would be a statistical anomaly in terms of suicide.

It is not a bizarre concept to you, probably because you are not suicidal. Thus it makes "sense" to you to go to some place you love to have your final moments. That is simply not the reality of actual suicides, and very rarely are suicides done in any sort of slow manner (i.e. freezing to death). Of course it could certainly happen that way. But it should be understood that there is a difference between "being suicidal" and actually making the decision to commit suicide and then following through with it. The time between the ultimate decision and the ultimate act is only a few seconds.

If Maura took the freezing in the mountains route to suicide, then her "ultimate decision" moment to her suicide moment would have been hours, and would have fallen way outside the normal timeline for suicide.

I disagree. You are probably correct that the decision to follow through with a suicide happens in a matter of seconds but most people who follow through, first set themselves up in the right place to make that decision. A bridge jumper for example, has to get to a bridge. They may stand there on the railing and mull it over, and when they make that decision to do it, within seconds they jump, but they put themselves in that position to be able to follow through when they decide. Even a shooter may sit there with a gun in his hand for hours before they decide to pull the trigger but they had to take the steps of getting and loading the gun first.

Maura could have made that type of decision. Maybe she seriously thought about doing it, and where she wanted to do it and traveled to the White Mountains to carry it out. She may have gotten her ride to one of her favorite mountains, walked up and stood there for hours on the edge until the decision was made to jump. And within seconds of that decision, she did it.

 

[BillNH]

James Renner...please clear up this question. In regards to the alcohol Maura purchased...your blog now says that the alcohol was all left behind in the car...did you edit that? I keep thinking it was very unclear what happened to the alcohol and even your original post was not clear about it. Many posts here on WS refer to the alcohol she took with her so I went back to your blog and what it now says is VERY clear. Did you edit it?

 

[JamesRenner]

I'm trying to get a definitive answer on that. No, it was not edited.

 

[Fireweed]

I disagree. You are probably correct that the decision to follow through with a suicide happens in a matter of seconds but most people who follow through, first set themselves up in the right place to make that decision. A bridge jumper for example, has to get to a bridge. They may stand there on the railing and mull it over, and when they make that decision to do it, within seconds they jump, but they put themselves in that position to be able to follow through when they decide. Even a shooter may sit there with a gun in his hand for hours before they decide to pull the trigger but they had to take the steps of getting and loading the gun first.

Sorry perhaps I was not clear. The person who commits suicide has most certainly stroked that gun a few times, or paced the Golden Gate Bridge. Suicidal people do stuff like that all the time. They even take a trip somewhere to commit suicide. They also "plan" their suicides.

What I was referring to was the moment that the FINAL decision to die is made and the actual suicide. It is only a few seconds. People plan and contemplate suicide all the time, but for those who actually complete suicide, the time between the final decision and the final act is not a lot of time.

I agree that Maura was having a hard time and was possibly suicidal, but unless she had a hand gun with her, walking off into the mountains with a bottle would be a very unusual way for someone to commit suicide, because there would be way too much lag time between the final decision and death itself.

Freezing to death in that weather is also not a guarantee. She could have passed out and woken up the next morning really, really cold. I do not disagree that Maura was upset and possibly suicidal; I just see some logistical problems with Maura actually killing herself by going out into the woods. First of all, it is no guarantee of death. Second of all, it goes against what we know about how people finally commit suicide.

 

[Fireweed]

The Department of Fish and Game, along with the NH state police, canvassed the White Mountains, specifically Mt. Washington area, quite extensively. It was a big operation, both times. They found a body near the summit of Mount Washington. Wasn't her, of course. But the area was searched so well (not just by them but by the 10 years of hikers, hunters, trappers, that I'm pretty certain her body is not up there.

Although I am also rather certain that her body is not up there, I am cautious about using these searches to prove a negative, i.e. we did not see her body, thus it is not there. The only thing these searches prove is what they did find. Okay so they found a body, but what if there are three other bodies up on that mountain? Then what does that prove?

Again they could not find Steve Fossett's entire airplane and the searchers knew for a fact that they were looking for him somewhere in that area.

 

[OldSteve]

To me a search does not prove that much. Look at the search for Steve Fossett. Despite a massive search effort, his remains were only discovered coincidentally by hiker much later, and the Fossett searchers had the benefit of looking for an entire airplane.

I know some speculate Maura was suicidal, but I still have a heard time wrapping my head around a lone woman going into the cold, dark, snowy woods alone. It just seems like such a bizarre way to commit suicide. It also goes against research regarding suicide, which is that the decision to commit suicide is much more immediate to the time of suicide - something like a few seconds. People may think about killing themselves for a long time, but the time that passes from the final decision to act itself is a very short amount of time. Going off to freeze to death goes against what we know about how people kill themselves. People want a quick, final act (jumping, shooting themselves, etc), and they want something that they cannot chicken out on part way through.

Suicide was explored on the Genevieve Mary Cormier thread:
Found Deceased Canada - Genevieve Mary Cormier, 19, Saint John NB, 29 September 2013 #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Two points of interest - only approx. 1/3 leave notes so mention about MM not leaving a note is not as relevant as I had once thought.

However, most women who commit suicide have made prior unsuccessful attempt(s) and most will have mentioning their feelings not wanting to live to someone else.

 

[BillNH]

Sorry perhaps I was not clear. The person who commits suicide has most certainly stroked that gun a few times, or paced the Golden Gate Bridge. Suicidal people do stuff like that all the time. They even take a trip somewhere to commit suicide. They also "plan" their suicides.

What I was referring to was the moment that the FINAL decision to die is made and the actual suicide. It is only a few seconds. People plan and contemplate suicide all the time, but for those who actually complete suicide, the time between the final decision and the final act is not a lot of time.

I agree that Maura was having a hard time and was possibly suicidal, but unless she had a hand gun with her, walking off into the mountains with a bottle would be a very unusual way for someone to commit suicide, because there would be way too much lag time between the final decision and death itself.

Freezing to death in that weather is also not a guarantee. She could have passed out and woken up the next morning really, really cold. I do not disagree that Maura was upset and possibly suicidal; I just see some logistical problems with Maura actually killing herself by going out into the woods. First of all, it is no guarantee of death. Second of all, it goes against what we know about how people finally commit suicide.

I still disagree. People who want to commit suicide will put themselves into a situation that makes it convenient for that last second decision. Like loading the gun or pacing the bridge. Maura may not have truly decided to commit suicide but I can believe she put herself into a situation that made it easy to do if she made that choice. Walking off into the woods with a bottle or walking to a cliff's edge would be the same as loading the gun or pacing the bridge. If she walked she still had the opportunity to turn and walk back out if she decided not to follow through. If she walked far enough then there would be a point of no return and she could have intended that. And although I don't believe that's how she would have done it, dying that way would be pretty peaceful. The alcohol numbs the cold until hypothermia sets in and you feel warm all over until you die. For a thinking person and a nature lover, it is perfectly believable even if outside the statistics. If everyone did it the same way there would be no need for a statistic.

 

[Fireweed]

I guess my issue is that the "last minute decision" is very easy to make at a bridge or with a loaded gun in your lap, but not so much with just a bottle and a chilly night. People on this board act as though drinking yourself to death is somehow a very easy thing to do. It is not, and I would suspect that someone like Maura would puke and pass out long before she would die from alcohol poisoning. Also, you may be able to freeze to death in 30 degree weather, but you also are highly likely to survive the night.

To me, walking off into the woods with a bottle on a chilly night would not be a particularly solid way to commit suicide. If you got "lucky" you would die, but it is certainly not a fool-proof way to death. If anything it would be the beginning of a series of "attempts" or "cries for help."

I am certainly not saying it could not be done, it is just a very odd to commit suicide, because your death would be anything but guaranteed, which is why most people use a gun, jump off a bridge, hang themselves, etc .

 

[Lolacat]

Suicide was explored on the Genevieve Mary Cormier thread:
Found Deceased Canada - Genevieve Mary Cormier, 19, Saint John NB, 29 September 2013 #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Two points of interest - only approx. 1/3 leave notes so mention about MM not leaving a note is not as relevant as I had once thought.

However, most women who commit suicide have made prior unsuccessful attempt(s) and most will have mentioning their feelings not wanting to live to someone else.

This is correct. I worked in an acute psychiatric ward for 9 years. Most of the patients I know who committed suicide did not leave a note. Typically, spring is the most common time to kill yourself and women tended to stick with pills/alcohol and men tended to choose more violent methods such as hanging/ jumping from a height/ in front a train etc... It is quite rare for someone to just suddenly kill themselves without expressing some kind of suicidal ideation before hand. There are usually warning signs (sometimes misinterpreted by those around them and then understood after the event, with the gift of hindsight). There are also what we call *risk factors*, which increase the likelihood of suicide taking place- eg. depression, other mental illness, drug/alcohol abuse, significant life events, isolation, lack of social support network etc.
Then, there are *protective factors* which reduce the risk of suicide, e.g.. supportive social network, appropriate medication and clinical intervention, strong familial support, cultural and religious beliefs that discourage suicide and support self preservation etc. Suicide risk assessment is about balancing all those factors to come up with a risk assessment for each patient.
In my experience on the job, when people express a wish to end their lives they should be taken extremely seriously (even if it is believed they are speaking in jest).

 

[BillNH]

I guess my issue is that the "last minute decision" is very easy to make at a bridge or with a loaded gun in your lap, but not so much with just a bottle and a chilly night. People on this board act as though drinking yourself to death is somehow a very easy thing to do. It is not, and I would suspect that someone like Maura would puke and pass out long before she would die from alcohol poisoning. Also, you may be able to freeze to death in 30 degree weather, but you also are highly likely to survive the night.

To me, walking off into the woods with a bottle on a chilly night would not be a particularly solid way to commit suicide. If you got "lucky" you would die, but it is certainly not a fool-proof way to death. If anything it would be the beginning of a series of "attempts" or "cries for help."

I am certainly not saying it could not be done, it is just a very odd to commit suicide, because your death would be anything but guaranteed, which is why most people use a gun, jump off a bridge, hang themselves, etc .

It would be fair to say that most suicide failures were done in such a way that did not guarantee success.
It does not prevent people from trying.
I think we can probably agree that Maura was not a skilled suicide attempter. Perhaps the Corolla crash was a failed attempt? It would be interesting to see a statistic about the complexity of peoples first attempts at suicide though that would be hard to track since if they survive, they can call it anything other than a suicide attempt. Point is, lack of a guarantee of success would not prevent one from making the attempt. Perhaps in Maura's case walking off into the woods with a bottle had a low rate of success but was successful nonetheless.

 

[Fireweed]

I completely agree that Maura may have been successful at an otherwise "low-success" suicide attempt. I do not discount the suicide theory. It is a perfectly good theory in light of the minimal information that we have about Maura. However, with no body, no footprints, no note, etc, then I think that we need to logically break that theory down using the information that we do have, namely statistics regarding suicide. We have such little information in this case, that it seems reasonable to use outside information to analyze the likelihood of an event happening one way or the other. For example, the idea of drinking oneself to death is totally possible, but it is certainly not a surefire way to die. In fact I would guess that someone like Maura - someone who had just turned 21 - probably does not fit into the statistic of the person that drinks herself to death. Also, most deaths from alcohol poisoning are accidental. I know if you gave most people a bottle of whiskey and told them to drink themselves to death, very likely most people would puke and pass out before they were to die. One thing I do find reasonable is that a suicidal person would be drinking heavily. I am sure that is backed up with good statistics. My assumption is that finding drugs/alcohol in the bodies of suicide victims is relatively common.

Look, I do not think that Maura took that trip that day because she was in a happy-go-lucky mood. I am sure she went up there either with suicidal thoughts, or thoughts of ditching her old life and starting a new life without the burdens of her old one.

In a way, both things are like a suicide: they are both about leaving your old life behind.

 

[scoops]

I guess my issue is that the "last minute decision" is very easy to make at a bridge or with a loaded gun in your lap, but not so much with just a bottle and a chilly night. People on this board act as though drinking yourself to death is somehow a very easy thing to do. It is not, and I would suspect that someone like Maura would puke and pass out long before she would die from alcohol poisoning. Also, you may be able to freeze to death in 30 degree weather, but you also are highly likely to survive the night.

To me, walking off into the woods with a bottle on a chilly night would not be a particularly solid way to commit suicide. If you got "lucky" you would die, but it is certainly not a fool-proof way to death. If anything it would be the beginning of a series of "attempts" or "cries for help."

I am certainly not saying it could not be done, it is just a very odd to commit suicide, because your death would be anything but guaranteed, which is why most people use a gun, jump off a bridge, hang themselves, etc .

Definitely not picking on you, because you make some good points.

But there are about 22 detailed stories of people who have died in the white mountains (and while they had clever and innovative ways of trying to survive, not a one of them was trying to kill themself, yet the mountains got the best of them anyway).

If Maura was trying to end her life, I don't think it would've been that hard considering the elements she was in.

And by the way, yes those noted stories were from the book maura had with her at the time she went missing near the white mountains.

Actual death numbers from the white mountains are staggering and by no means were all covered in the book Not Without Peril.

Over 140 deaths have occured (at "The Hike" Mt. Washington) there since the 1800's and the mountain boasts record winds of 231 miles per hour back in April of 1934. I believe (I wasn't able to find the link again) that 18 or 19 people died in one single year either at Mt. Washington or somewhere in the white mountains.

 

[Fireweed]

I do not doubt that many people have died out in the White Mountains, which I am sure is true for most mountainous areas that are frequently visited by humans. Of course it is entirely possible that Maura roamed off into the mountains and died. She may have roamed off into the mountains with the intent of dying and then died. Those things are possible, but they just seem quite unlikely to me, given what we know about suicide.

I simply pointing out that this would be a bad way to commit suicide, as the likelihood that you would indeed die that night is not necessarily all that high. If it were 30 below that night, then yes it would be. But it was in the 30s which is most definitely survivable.

You say that in that book not one of the people who died was trying to kill themselves, and I am not at all surprised. In fact, I would bet dollars to donuts that going out into the woods like an old squaw to die is an almost unheard of suicide method. No doubt some people head off into the woods with a gun, but I would be shocked if there were more than a handful of recorded cases in the past 100 years of someone just walking out into the woods with the intent of dying that night via exposure.

It is simply not a good suicide method. It may work, but it is also highly survivable, which of course skips the whole point of suicide.

And again, as I stated from the start: there would be too much lag time between the decision to die and the actual death itself to fit in to what we know about how people commit suicide. It could happen of course, but it would be a highly unusual thing in a suicide.

 

[scoops]

:drumroll:More thoughts on the theory of suicide as it pertains to this case:

This is not something I came up with, after hearing one thing or seeing an interview somewhere or speaking to someone about Maura.

I have looked over a lot of things concerning this case (forwards and backwards) and while nothing provides concrete evidence, there are a lot of things that need to be explained that haven't if I am going to start thinking about another possible theory such as Maura was murdered or Maura began a new life somewhere.

Some things I feel need a good explanation.

---we keep hearing about Maura going off with alcohol, but don't forget, Maura also had Tylenol PM with her as well. (Family explains this away as they do with many things --- relating her having it to an old athletic injury), but that doesn't add up in my book.

You have alcohol and Tylenol PM and I would imagine that mix isn't a great one.

---- Maura only packed (enough clothes for one day). That sounds like something someone would do if they only had plans for one day, not an entire week. I don't buy that Maura was taking a week vacation and heading off to the mountains for some R and R. Maura's plans to me seem very one-way oriented, (little clothes, little cash, broken down car, abandoning school/work).

---- Maura left the scene of her accident with a backpack and alcohol and not much else. IF she went through the trouble of packing very specific items, why did she then abandon them in her car? Makes no sense at all, especially if her intent all along was to start a new life. She could've either left all that stuff back at the dorm, or scooped it up when she left the scene of the accident. To bring specific stuff and then leave it breaks from common sense.

---- The statement Maura's dad made to all his children --- That if he ever felt worthless in life ----- they would find him drunk and dead in the mountains. Why say that if the mountains are such an odd place to take your own life, why not tell his kids, if he ever felt worthless, they could find him hanging in a closet.

----Fred's 911 call (Day after Maura went missing) to police where he told the dispatch officer it was urgent he talk to an officer (working his daughter's disappearance) because he had some very important information to pass along concerning his daughter. I really hate to analyze something like this, but if you were told your loved one went missing hours away from where you thought they were, would you have something important to tell police, or would you be in such shock that you would want police to tell you what the heck is going on. Fred just spent the entire weekend with his daughter. Who would have better insight than him on what was going on in her head at the time she went missing.


--- The sentimental items she brought. She didn't bring her most valuable stuff with her (money-wise) she brought items that stroke up emotion.

---The packed up dorm. Sorry, but the family's attempt to explain this away is pretty bad (IMO). "She just didn't have time to unpack from winter break." There is no way that that statement is true. And since its false, why are they explaining that away? Why pack up your dorm and leave everything behind? I can only think of one scenario where that makes sense and that is that you are leaving that stuff (for family to claim at a later date).

---Maura is running away to a new life in Canada ... yet she leaves all her possessions behind in her dorm room. What was she going to do, sneak back in disguise as a cable repairwoman and get her stuff at a later date. (someone please use common sense here). You run away but you leave your desktop computer behind, work checks, all your clothes, your valuables.

I guess that would be a clean start, but I think you would at least bring a couple of shirts to getaway. But maybe a couple of shirts would've weighed her down as she crossed the Canadian border :doh:


But other than that stuff, everything else points to murder and living it up in montreal somewhere. (yes that is sarcasm).

 

[Fireweed]

Though I do not understand the "sarcasm" stuff in all your posts - after all this should be a safe place to explore all theories and ideas - I certainly agree that many of Maura's actions speak to a suicidal mind. I have always thought that Maura's actions were that of a very distraught person. What I am having trouble with, is how she would have committed suicide, logistically speaking. Perhaps she did have some pills on her. It is just that in all the years I have been following this case, people use the phrase "went off into the woods to commit suicide," as if that is all it takes. Just walking off into the woods wanting to die does not mean that you will.

Additionally, I am always a little cautious with the concept that a person would take a lot with them to start a new life. Look at the missing person's cases where that did happen - none of those people planned it out very well, and many of them took almost nothing with them when they left. Yet those people still managed to stay missing for many years. One other thing about those missing people is that most them made their decision to bolt rather suddenly. For all we know, Maura left Amherst with the intention of suicide, or with the intention of a one night getaway and then decided to disappear on the drive up there. Since this has been a cold case for 10 years, I think it is totally fair and reasonable to explore all angles of this case. I cannot dismiss offhand that Maura did not just go start a new life somewhere.

 

[scoops]

Though I do not understand the "sarcasm" stuff in all your posts - after all this should be a safe place to explore all theories and ideas - I certainly agree that many of Maura's actions speak to a suicidal mind. I have always thought that Maura's actions were that of a very distraught person. What I am having trouble with, is how she would have committed suicide, logistically speaking. Perhaps she did have some pills on her. It is just that in all the years I have been following this case, people use the phrase "went off into the woods to commit suicide," as if that is all it takes. Just walking off into the woods wanting to die does not mean that you will.

Additionally, I am always a little cautious with the concept that a person would take a lot with them to start a new life. Look at the missing person's cases where that did happen - none of those people planned it out very well, and many of them took almost nothing with them when they left. Yet those people still managed to stay missing for many years. One other thing about those missing people is that most them made their decision to bolt rather suddenly. For all we know, Maura left Amherst with the intention of suicide, or with the intention of a one night getaway and then decided to disappear on the drive up there. Since this has been a cold case for 10 years, I think it is totally fair and reasonable to explore all angles of this case. I cannot dismiss offhand that Maura did not just go start a new life somewhere.

I understand what you are saying and that a split second decision could be made to run away and start a new life, but why pack up your dorm room (for what purpose does that serve?) why not just get in your car and leave?

And you are going to leave behind clues such as map directions to the very area you went missing from?

you really think some young woman is going to have some sort of bait and switch runaway plan in the works where she leads people to go to one area to look for her and yet, she orchestrates a car ride away from the one area to a completely new area, all in the midst of several houses and people looking out their windows etc..

I would at least think that if she was that clever and had planned it out that thoroughly, she would at least have staged her accident where no other variables could've entered the picture and at any second ruined her plans.

Like staging a car accident right across the street from a house at a few minutes after 7pm that is a very daring and reckless runaway plan for anyone.


The main gripe I have (not with you by the way) is that people keep saying you need to look at everything and not just one thing to determine what happened with such little actual evidence out there.

Yet I provide about seven things, (and I could go on, probably get to about 15 things) that at least in some way support a suicide theory,

but when it comes to some of these other theories (running away, being kidnapped) no one can come up with anything that supports that other than trying to reference other cases which have nothing to do with Maura and her mental state. For instance Maura is no molly bish. Maura had some sort of issues going on right before she went missing, you can't just dismiss that outright.

If Maura would've been a truly happy go lucky person with everything going for her and she just happened to be out shopping one day to buy presents for everyone in her life because she was so grateful to know them --- and then she went missing and all that was left was her car in the mall parking lot --- under that circumstance, I guarantee suicide would never cross my mind.

But in Maura's situation, she fled to the mountains people. Who does that? With little cash and little clothes and Alone and in a broken down car in the evening hours in February.

 

[dogperson]

Please refresh my memory on this, was the Tylenol PM found still in her car? She may have had more than one box/bottle of Tylenol PM with her and could have taken some along with her when she left the car. Plus we have no way of knowing what other pills could have been in her possession. It's not very hard to buy other types of sedatives or strong pain relievers illegally. It's not likely anyone would come forward and say, "Hey, that Maura girl who is missing, she bought 10 Oxycontin from me."
Although I had never been a strong supporter of the suicide theory I find it way more likely than the stranger abduction. Originally I was 100% she died accidentally, but now I'm more 70%-80% for accidental death and think it's possible she did commit suicide. I don't think she was travelling in tandem with anyone, not unless he completely abandoned her after the accident, and I can't imagine why he would if they were sneaking away together.
Being a nursing student, she would know you can die from hypothermia, although if it were me I wouldn't want to attempt suicide that way. You might survive but end up with severe frostbite or other really serious problems. But if she took some pills with her and a bottle of alcohol she would be greatly increasing her chances of success.
I also wanted to add, in the case of the missing Lee Cutler, I believe he had alcohol and Advil PM when he went into the woods and he left a note that said something like "now I can finally get some sleep". He has a WS thread here. I strongly believe he committed suicide by sedating himself and jumping into the river. His case reminds me a little bit of Maura's.