NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[MysteryMaven]

This actually goes against what I believe happened to Maura, but its worth noting because its true if the police reports are accurate.

Both of Maura's car wrecks in the span of 48 hours involved her crashing into something head-on, with the second wreck even having a witness hearing an acceleration right before a boom.

Now, I don't neccesarily believe Maura was trying to wreck herself to death, but two head-on collisions in 48 hours is something to take note of.

hey scoops,
sorry if you addressed this already, but what is your idea about what happened to her? do you think it was suicide? I'm trying to go back thru and read but it's taking me a while to find.
thank you

 

[MysteryMaven]

In most threads on WS, families of missing people are considered victims unless the police have named them as a suspect. I often wonder why Fred Murray is not afforded that same courtesy here.

I agree. He has been maligned beyond belief.

 

[MysteryMaven]

I guess he wants to keep this in the family but unfortunately this is a crime investigation. While Maura's disappearance is very personal, the case isn't. It is a case that people are involved in, that has torn up the town of haverhill in more than one way, and pay their tax dollars toward (money that could have gone to another case where people DID share all they know) and that has entered public consciousness. I understand Fred possibly wants to protect his daughter, but then he should understand that the fact that he had not agreed to sit down w the police for 2.5 years after the investigation and didn't have a consistent story for what he and Maura were doing that weekend + consistent refusal to discuss theories or Maura's background to the police... will cause people to speculate
How do we even know that it's all to protect maura? we don't know that, because nothing is for sure. all we know is that he has been inconsistent and evasive, and that should be looked at, as everything in her case should. he can't say 'oh it was a suicide' and then, 'no, someone took her' and refuse to expect anything less than the police changing tack everytime he says so... without actual background information.
And I definitely agree with you---lawyering up is usually not an admission of guilt or withholding information or whatever, I just think in conjunction with him not speaking for over 2 years it speaks volumes about what he may be withholding.
So while I am truly sorry for Fred's loss as well as the rest of the family + my heart feels deeply for Maura, Fred's figure in this whole case looms large and to not discuss his behavior + how he's proceeded would be an incomplete way of looking at the case. and as i've said, i don't think fred is 'guilty' i just think he's kept a lot of information back that may or may not have taken the case farther than it went and changed the intensity with which LE explored possible avenues.
or not. it's possible that fred knows exactly what happened to maura and it's pointless to speculate anymore because she's passed on by her own hand for sure or something or perhaps the folktale is true and she IS up in Canada and he's trying to protect her privacy, but we don't know that. all we know is maura is missing and we have some inconsistencies and missing info here

I say this on a lot of threads, but we don't know what we don't know. We don't know what LE knows that is just not public record. The public is not owed information just because they want it. There is ALWAYS information in cases that is not let known to the public, or even family members.

 

[deca]

I say this on a lot of threads, but we don't know what we don't know. We don't know what LE knows that is just not public record. The public is not owed information just because they want it. There is ALWAYS information in cases that is not let known to the public, or even family members.

I know this doesn't have much to do with this case, but:
Is there a statute of limitations on murder? Like 50 years? I don't think so, but if there is, any information should be revealed at that point so family and friends can get some closure.
I never understand when super old cases (especially when the prime suspect died years before) are kept under lock and key.
JMO

 

[scoops]

hey scoops,
sorry if you addressed this already, but what is your idea about what happened to her? do you think it was suicide? I'm trying to go back thru and read but it's taking me a while to find.
thank you

Yes, I believe Maura took her own life less than 24 hours after she went missing.

(If the second wreck hadn't happened) I believe Maura would've rented a room at a hotel close to her destination and would've written a suicide note and left it in her car as she hit the trail somewhere never to be seen again the following morning.


(Since the wreck did happen) I believe it partially threw Maura off course, but I think she continued on anyway and just skipped the hotel part of the plan. I believe she got a ride away from her car accident from a good samaratin who likely drove her eastward and dropped her off at some point. And from there, I think Maura just took off into the mountains.

 

[leilarose68]

Yes, I believe Maura took her own life less than 24 hours after she went missing.

(If the second wreck hadn't happened) I believe Maura would've rented a room at a hotel close to her destination and would've written a suicide note and left it in her car as she hit the trail somewhere never to be seen again the following morning.


(Since the wreck did happen) I believe it partially threw Maura off course, but I think she continued on anyway and just skipped the hotel part of the plan. I believe she got a ride away from her car accident from a good samaratin who likely drove her eastward and dropped her off at some point. And from there, I think Maura just took off into the mountains.

the glove they chose for the dogs to follow was a really strange choice, as as her father has said, she didn't wear it that much.

also apparently from cars driving down the street, her tracks could have been covered in less than 48 hours after the disappearance.

it's very possible she could still have just taken off into the woods after the crash

 

[scoops]

the glove they chose for the dogs to follow was a really strange choice, as as her father has said, she didn't wear it that much.

also apparently from cars driving down the street, her tracks could have been covered in less than 48 hours after the disappearance.

it's very possible she could still have just taken off into the woods after the crash

No argument there from me. except for the lack of footprints in the snow.

The dog did pick up a scent and immediately began going east from where Maura's car was, but the dog lost the scent (likely due to the time that lapsed before the search took place) at about the precise spot that the dog handlers thought the dog would lose the scent.

 

[Captain_Khan]

Near the area where Maura's car was found, there is a long stretch of road with a river running alongside it. The banks are very steep. It is especially visible from the road in the area that Maura was supposedly spotted by the local man. In fact, where route 116 crosses 112, there is a bridge that shows just how much of a drop there is to the water below.

Anyone from NH know what that river would look like in February? Frozen, or maybe swollen with melted snow...?

EDIT: Just noticed that stretch is called 'Lost River Road'. Coordinates start at 44.108173,-71.866748, then head East. It is Wild Ammonoosuc River, and you can see that at points it is hardly visible from the road (and would have been even less apparent on a winter's night).

 

[southernyankee]

Super-long-time-lurker, first post now!

And a quick disclosure: I no longer live in Massachusetts, but I grew up there + was at UMass the same time Maura was, and recall her missing posters going up in my dorm that same February. My roommate at the time was a graduate of Whitman-Hanson high school, but I don't believe she knew the Murrays. This case has intrigued me from the beginning, and I occasionally searched for an update over the years...and have been drawn back into it earlier this year, but have stayed largely silent.

I feel tremendously empathetic toward Maura - and her family + friends - and not sure why or for any clear reason, except perhaps for some commonalities in how + where we grew up...and maybe just basic human empathy. Anyway.

Captain_Khan, your most recent post made me recall this entry in James Renner's well-known blog on this subject (for better or for worse, I know there are mixed feelings among followers of Maura's case) - and I think it could be potentially relevant. If you haven't seen it already, I hope it's helpful:
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/11/wild-ammonoosuc.html

And to all: hello! I hope to chime in a bit more on this thread from here on out, and look forward to discussing it with all of you. I'm new here but considerably well versed in the details of this case and would like to contribute thoughtfully.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Super-long-time-lurker, first post now!

And a quick disclosure: I no longer live in Massachusetts, but I grew up there + was at UMass the same time Maura was, and recall her missing posters going up in my dorm that same February. My roommate at the time was a graduate of Whitman-Hanson high school, but I don't believe she knew the Murrays. This case has intrigued me from the beginning, and I occasionally searched for an update over the years...and have been drawn back into it earlier this year, but have stayed largely silent.

I feel tremendously empathetic toward Maura - and her family + friends - and not sure why or for any clear reason, except perhaps for some commonalities in how + where we grew up...and maybe just basic human empathy. Anyway.

Captain_Khan, your most recent post made me recall this entry in James Renner's well-known blog on this subject (for better or for worse, I know there are mixed feelings among followers of Maura's case) - and I think it could be potentially relevant. If you haven't seen it already, I hope it's helpful:
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/11/wild-ammonoosuc.html

And to all: hello! I hope to chime in a bit more on this thread from here on out, and look forward to discussing it with all of you. I'm new here but considerably well versed in the details of this case and would like to contribute thoughtfully.

Welcome southernyankee!.. Glad you decided to join in discussing Maura's case.. I look forward to hearing more from you..

**Please forgive the limitations that come w/my posting via mobile ATM**

 

[goldiegirl]

Near the area where Maura's car was found, there is a long stretch of road with a river running alongside it. The banks are very steep. It is especially visible from the road in the area that Maura was supposedly spotted by the local man. In fact, where route 116 crosses 112, there is a bridge that shows just how much of a drop there is to the water below.

Anyone from NH know what that river would look like in February? Frozen, or maybe swollen with melted snow...?

EDIT: Just noticed that stretch is called 'Lost River Road'. Coordinates start at 44.108173,-71.866748, then head East. It is Wild Ammonoosuc River, and you can see that at points it is hardly visible from the road (and would have been even less apparent on a winter's night).

Somewhere on this thread is a link to a video of the Wild Amonoosuc. We talked about it a while ago, and it's a pretty crazy river that time of year from what I remember. It's definitely a possibility that she stepped into the river accidentally in the dark (although she would have heard it, you'd think) or intentionally (what a miserable way to die!) and was washed away. If she ended up in the river somehow, she'll likely never be found. But I tend to agree with Scoops that she likely went off into the woods.

 

[Captain_Khan]

Captain_Khan, your most recent post made me recall this entry in James Renner's well-known blog on this subject (for better or for worse, I know there are mixed feelings among followers of Maura's case) - and I think it could be potentially relevant. If you haven't seen it already, I hope it's helpful:
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/11/wild-ammonoosuc.html

It's definitely a possibility that she stepped into the river accidentally in the dark (although she would have heard it, you'd think) or intentionally (what a miserable way to die!) and was washed away. If she ended up in the river somehow, she'll likely never be found.

Thank you for the info, guys. I really like to know all the little details of this case - for example, what side of the road was Maura on when the local man spotted her? To me, that could be very important. In the wet, dark and icy, I could imagine it would only take a small misstep to stumble and find yourself falling down a sharp bank...

It looks like the river is almost frozen over in February, but with free-flowing water underneath. If someone were to smash through that and find themselves waist-deep in icy cold water, I think it would be very, very hard to get out again, and only a matter of time until you were in very serious trouble. It would only take a matter of hours for the river to freeze over again, and if it snowed you could be hidden and inaccessible for a while. Couple that with that huge rush of water a few weeks later...

I never believed Maura intended to kill herself - to me, her situation seemed bleak but not dire, and the method of supposed suicide seemed bizarre. Accidental death, however, i could certainly believe in.

 

[scoops]

Thank you for the info, guys. I really like to know all the little details of this case - for example, what side of the road was Maura on when the local man spotted her? To me, that could be very important. In the wet, dark and icy, I could imagine it would only take a small misstep to stumble and find yourself falling down a sharp bank...

It looks like the river is almost frozen over in February, but with free-flowing water underneath. If someone were to smash through that and find themselves waist-deep in icy cold water, I think it would be very, very hard to get out again, and only a matter of time until you were in very serious trouble. It would only take a matter of hours for the river to freeze over again, and if it snowed you could be hidden and inaccessible for a while. Couple that with that huge rush of water a few weeks later...

I never believed Maura intended to kill herself - to me, her situation seemed bleak but not dire, and the method of supposed suicide seemed bizarre. Accidental death, however, i could certainly believe in.

I for a long time believed that accidental death made the most sense concerning what happened to Maura, but I was mis-led to believe that Maura actually attempted to call billy and he could hear her voice wimpering on the other end of the phone, despite her not saying a word.

It somewhat made sense that maybe Maura was making a last ditch attempt to ask for help to someone right before she froze to death.

But it turned out that VERY EARLY ON police quickly ruled out that call. They determined that the noise being heard on that phone message was nothing more than cell phone static.


Yet years later on the ID Disappeared show episode, Billy's Mom is still bringing up the debunked phone message like it still is relevant, yet another red flag IMO as more spin kept getting introduced to the public.

 

[Captain_Khan]

I for a long time believed that accidental death made the most sense concerning what happened to Maura, but I was mis-led to believe that Maura actually attempted to call billy and he could hear her voice wimpering on the other end of the phone, despite her not saying a word.

It somewhat made sense that maybe Maura was making a last ditch attempt to ask for help to someone right before she froze to death.

But it turned out that VERY EARLY ON police quickly ruled out that call. They determined that the noise being heard on that phone message was nothing more than cell phone static.


Yet years later on the ID Disappeared show episode, Billy's Mom is still bringing up the debunked phone message like it still is relevant, yet another red flag IMO as more spin kept getting introduced to the public.

Yeah, I found out the phone card thing was debunked about as soon as I started looking into the case beyond the wiki page (mostly from Topix, here and Renner's blog).

It's just, to me, suicide doesn't sit right. Maybe I'm looking for too much of a complicated answer, but I always thought Maura was going somewhere on the 8th, to do something in particular. I wonder if Fred knew, and originally wanted her to buy a car to make the journey in, then decided to lend her his car - but when she smashed it up, she was forced to make the journey in the Saturn.

I totally see that suicide is a possibility, but my gut feeling (and I admit it is little more than gut feeling) tells me that the evidence leading up to that point indicates Maura had a plan, which fell apart after the second crash.

 

[scoops]

Yeah, I found out the phone card thing was debunked about as soon as I started looking into the case beyond the wiki page (mostly from Topix, here and Renner's blog).

It's just, to me, suicide doesn't sit right. Maybe I'm looking for too much of a complicated answer, but I always thought Maura was going somewhere on the 8th, to do something in particular. I wonder if Fred knew, and originally wanted her to buy a car to make the journey in, then decided to lend her his car - but when she smashed it up, she was forced to make the journey in the Saturn.

I totally see that suicide is a possibility, but my gut feeling (and I admit it is little more than gut feeling) tells me that the evidence leading up to that point indicates Maura had a plan, which fell apart after the second crash.

I put a lot more weight into the book "Not Without Peril" than family spokespeople want the public to.

In their attempts to dismiss the fact that the book actually romanticizes dying in the mountains, they have come up with several different versions on why Maura had that book and what the book meant to Maura.

One of the stories is that Fred handed the book out to each of his kids (one at a time) and it just so happened that at the time Maura went missing, it was her turn to read the book as the murray kids and family passed the book around amongst each other.

In other versions, family members have described that book as Maura's favorite book and something she carries around with her no matter where she goes.


So obviously, it can't be both.


More family spin, all in attempt IMO to explain away.


You have to admit, someone has a book about death, and how hikers spent their last minutes in the mountains, and that same person goes missing at the entrance of a national forest that lead into the White Mountains ... That its not a stretch that just maybe the two items have some relation.

 

[sinenox]

Some additional thoughts, after catching up with the comments:

I think Fred is singled out quite a bit because of his friction with law enforcement, because of his uncompromising "my way or the highway" attitude, and most of all because some accounts of his relationship with his daughter seem unconventional. There are normal family boundaries that tend to exist, to some degree, everywhere. The accounts of his harshness toward her, and also how much he was helping her to sort things (sharing a hotel room, etc) don't mean anything, but to someone already looking suspicious they may seem like red flags, especially as the person he's trying to help is spiraling down in to ever more problematic behaviors. I am also not accusing her father of anything at all, I just think this helps to explain some of the discomfort. I once had a boss who would often try to hug me or yell at me for irrational things. This didn't make our relationship unacceptable, it worked for us, but to the outside someone would point to these things and say "whatever that relationship is, it's not professional".

I have a hypothesis about Fred's odd claims in the first few days, based on my (limited) time working in law enforcement. Based on his actions and statements since, Fred strikes me as a slightly manipulative person. I think that when he first heard that his daughter was missing, he thought that telling them she might hurt herself would put a fire under them to find her faster. I have seen this technique employed by other concerned relatives, and I can see the logic in it. I think that he expected they would find her, or her remains, shortly thereafter. The problem with a potential suicide motive is that once the case has stretched beyond a certain point, it acts as a convenient explanation for investigators, and may detract from resources allocated to the case, consciously or otherwise. I have wondered a few times if part of Fred's dogged pursuit of both Maura's location and the police files stems from guilt over his own backfired attempts to move the case along early on.

Finally, since suicide is continually brought up, I wanted to offer a suggestion. If it's really important to eliminate the suicide hypothesis, there are some pretty comprehensive studies on suicidality that should not be ignored. When I was certifying to be a suicide interventionist, I reviewed the literature on the topic and there have been some neat recent developments. One is that they've looked at a variety of hospital intakes, where everyone is brought in voluntarily or involuntarily due to a threat of self harm, and extracted core variables of interest. It turns out of all the people who felt suicidal, the ones who followed through with their threat and were successful represented a specific minority, and almost all of them had a few specific risk factors in common:

1. Lack of sleep.
2. Lack of food/low blood sugar.
3. A solid plan of action, or previous attempts.
4. Intoxication (with other substances as well, but most importantly alcohol).

There are a number of other risk factors, and buffers that tend to represent a barrier to effective completion of the act. If it's of interest, it may be worth consulting the evidence to determine whether she meets the known standards of a high-risk suicidal person?

 

[southernyankee]

Thank you for the info, guys. I really like to know all the little details of this case - for example, what side of the road was Maura on when the local man spotted her? To me, that could be very important. In the wet, dark and icy, I could imagine it would only take a small misstep to stumble and find yourself falling down a sharp bank...

Okay, so using what is known publicly about the accident as well as the magic of Google Maps, you can zero on rather closely on the crash site location if you type in the address "350 Wild Ammonoosuc Road, Haverhill, NH." (Note: I don't believe that is anyone's specific address, just that this location gets you pretty close to the spot. You could type in "340" instead and also hit it.)

You can even locate the tree with the blue ribbon on it, marked for Maura.

It's commonly believed that Maura was heading east on Route 112 before the accident, and that her car was found along the eastbound side of the road, having spun 180 degrees (and thus facing the opposite direction from which she came).

Sound confusing? It kind of is. There's a great post here with visuals to help: http://notwithoutperil.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/understanding-the-crash-site/

Going back to a satellite map view of the area + zooming out a little from the crash site, it's apparent that the Wild Ammonoosuc River (or some offshoot of it) runs closer to the opposite side of the road from where Maura's car came to rest.

I don't think we can conclude much from this, except that if Maura found herself along the banks of this river, she would at some point have had to cross the road on 112 from where her car came to halt in order to get there.

 

[McSpy]

I wonder if this is related to the reason why she left the dorm party and attempted to drive somewhere (presumed to be her father's hotel)?

I could imagine the subject of the party turning to her background, or someone making a snide remark, and Maura deciding that she had to get away to someone who was sympathetic, then accidentally crashing FM's car on the way to see him.

I myself as a youngster went to events that turned sour and made bad decisions regarding how to get away (that thankfully didn't result in grief). I wonder if possible drunkenness/emotional reaction led to the first crash?

This would also tie into my belief that Maura planned to quit UMass and restart her course elsewhere. If she realized she couldn't escape other people's judgement at UMass, maybe she planned to leave and try again where her past would be unknown.

Possible. Some of it could have been her imagination too. A simple glance from someone in her dorm could have looked like a glare in her mind. The cat was out of the bag and maybe she even thought the word was spreading that she was a thief. That is a lot of pressure and it can play tricks on someone's mind. IMO, she didn't seem like the kind of person who could brush any of it off easily.

 

[Captain_Khan]

Okay, so using what is known publicly about the accident as well as the magic of Google Maps, you can zero on rather closely on the crash site location if you type in the address "350 Wild Ammonoosuc Road, Haverhill, NH." (Note: I don't believe that is anyone's specific address, just that this location gets you pretty close to the spot. You could type in "340" instead and also hit it.)

You can even locate the tree with the blue ribbon on it, marked for Maura.

It's commonly believed that Maura was heading east on Route 112 before the accident, and that her car was found along the eastbound side of the road, having spun 180 degrees (and thus facing the opposite direction from which she came).

Sound confusing? It kind of is. There's a great post here with visuals to help: http://notwithoutperil.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/understanding-the-crash-site/

Going back to a satellite map view of the area + zooming out a little from the crash site, it's apparent that the Wild Ammonoosuc River (or some offshoot of it) runs closer to the opposite side of the road from where Maura's car came to rest.

I don't think we can conclude much from this, except that if Maura found herself along the banks of this river, she would at some point have had to cross the road on 112 from where her car came to halt in order to get there.

I think it might be useful if we make a list of known coordinates from the events that happened to Maura?

First crash: 42.384778,-72.548109 (this is according to Renner - it's not Route 9, but where North Hadley Road meets North Maple Street. Disputed.)
Second Crash Site:44.119272°N 71.936278°W
Rick Forcier Sighting: Between 4 to 5 miles from 2nd Crash site - from 44.108173,-71.866748 , then eastwards for one mile

Anyone know any other important sites? The Vasi hit and run, Maura's dorm/place of work etc?


We also know Maura made use of online map services. Where could Maura have searched for, that would suggest that she used Route 112?

From what google maps says, if she set off at 4 and crashed at 7:30, she wasn't making very good time. She could have got there in under 3 hours if she took a straight route and didn't hit traffic. Maybe that suggests she took a wrong turn and had to double back, or she stopped somewhere first?

Edit - Looking at all these maps has really confused me, but then something stuck out. There is a Route 116 that runs right through Amhurst, quite close to the University. There is a (different) Route 116 that intersects Route 112, where Maura had her fateful accident. There's no way she could have got confused once she was on the road, is there? Decides to change her mind and head home when she's lost, sees a sign that says "Route 112 (leads to Route 116)", and thinks that road might take her home? I don't know enough about how American roads or signage works, but if I was lost and confused but saw a similar sounding Route... Then again, in the UK it's a much safer bet that you're in the right place!

 

[southernyankee]

Edit - Looking at all these maps has really confused me, but then something stuck out. There is a Route 116 that runs right through Amhurst, quite close to the University. There is a (different) Route 116 that intersects Route 112, where Maura had her fateful accident. There's no way she could have got confused once she was on the road, is there? Decides to change her mind and head home when she's lost, sees a sign that says "Route 112 (leads to Route 116)", and thinks that road might take her home? I don't know enough about how American roads or signage works, but if I was lost and confused but saw a similar sounding Route... Then again, in the UK it's a much safer bet that you're in the right place!

Real quick on this - No way. Or at least highly doubtful she would have mistook one for the other.

I went to the same university and lived on campus all four years - and had a car the last year I was there...and frequently used Route 116 in and around Amherst, Hadley, etc. It's a relatively small state route (as NH-116 appears to be too) - and they are NOT connected in any way. Route 116 in Mass runs North/South (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Route_116); Route 116 in NH runs East/West and seems like basically a rural route to the White Mountains.

Not only that - these routes are nearly 150 miles (a 2.5 hour drive) away from each other at their closest points.