NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[Lolacat]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that the driving in tandem theory(ies) were introduced to the conversation by James Renner. Personally, having seen no clear evidence, I am skeptical. One would think that Renner must have uncovered some fairly compelling indications along those lines — based on his current activities.



Not necessarily by all accounts. One of my frustrations with these discussions is seeing how hearsay and conventional wisdom have become the facts of the case. One very minor example is the supposed condition of Maura's Saturn. Do we have any proof that Maura’s car was really in poor running condition? Similarly, we don’t know that a “secret boyfriend” was a factor in any of this — though many people who discuss the possibility of a planned permanent disappearance seem to take that idea as a given.

Yes. James Renner seems confident that this is what happened to Maura. I too, am skeptical but in fact, he heavily implies on his blog today that he is hopping on a plane to go and see Maura!! As far as I can tell, he is implying that she is shacked up in canada with a guy called David Whalen (a poker player who went to college with Maura and happened to be playing around Londonderry in 2004- its blatantly obvious he is implying that he is the cause of the londonderry ping on Maura's phone the night she disappeared). To be honest, I dont know what to believe anymore. There are so many conflicting theories and NONE of them fit or make total sense. I think I have been steered off course by James Renner's blog and its really hard to separate the truth from what is obviously journalistic sensationalism and poetic licence. I can't really blame James, that is the nature of journalism and he will shortly have a book to flog. Its just that he has introduced so many different and complex threads that its really hard to sort through whats true and what is hearsay and conjecture.

 

[OldSteve]

Yes. James Renner seems confident that this is what happened to Maura. I too, am skeptical but in fact, he heavily implies on his blog today that he is hopping on a plane to go and see Maura!! As far as I can tell, he is implying that she is shacked up in canada with a guy called David Whalen (a poker player who went to college with Maura and happened to be playing around Londonderry in 2004- its blatantly obvious he is implying that he is the cause of the londonderry ping on Maura's phone the night she disappeared). To be honest, I dont know what to believe anymore. There are so many conflicting theories and NONE of them fit or make total sense. I think I have been steered off course by James Renner's blog and its really hard to separate the truth from what is obviously journalistic sensationalism and poetic licence. I can't really blame James, that is the nature of journalism and he will shortly have a book to flog. Its just that he has introduced so many different and complex threads that its really hard to sort through whats true and what is hearsay and conjecture.

Be interesting to see how that plays out! Will he say he met her and he's okay but doesn't want to go public?
Will he say he went there but couldn't find her?

Sadly, there's no way I can see her leaving her family and never contacting them... she's have to miss them like crazy... seems too close to her dad to hurt him long term...

 

[Lolacat]

Be interesting to see how that plays out! Will he say he met her and he's okay but doesn't want to go public?
Will he say he went there but couldn't find her?

Sadly, there's no way I can see her leaving her family and never contacting them... she's have to miss them like crazy... seems too close to her dad to hurt him long term...

I know! I am very curious to see what happens. If he can't prove her existence he's going to be eating humble pie for Christmas
In all seriousness, I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to hear she is alive.

 

[scoops]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that the driving in tandem theory(ies) were introduced to the conversation by James Renner. Personally, having seen no clear evidence, I am skeptical. One would think that Renner must have uncovered some fairly compelling indications along those lines — based on his current activities.



Not necessarily by all accounts. One of my frustrations with these discussions is seeing how hearsay and conventional wisdom have become the facts of the case. One very minor example is the supposed condition of Maura's Saturn. Do we have any proof that Maura’s car was really in poor running condition? Similarly, we don’t know that a “secret boyfriend” was a factor in any of this — though many people who discuss the possibility of a planned permanent disappearance seem to take that idea as a given.

Extremely good point, KenShabby.

We should make a list of things that are both absolute fact concerning this case or absolute spin.

I think I know which category would fill up the most. And I truly believe that the list on the absolute fact side even 10 years later is quite small.

 

[scoops]

I've been reading this forum for years and have kept going back and forth between death from exposure (accidental) and suicide. It could really go either way. Just some random thoughts but I wonder if she might have hung herself on a high tree branch in the woods. A local teen did that a few years ago, in the winter, and because it was so heavily wooded, and presumably because the searchers didn't look up, they didn't find him for quite some time.

Another thought is about the possibility that she was hitchhiking and was taken by a killer. I always dismissed that because it's just so highly unlikely that on this country road in the middle of nowhere within a 10 minute time-span a killer would just happen to be driving by. But that may not have been the one who got her. She may have hitched a ride back to i-91 or to i-93, which are main highways running through the state, got a ride from someone else and who knows where she ended up. This past summer my 20-year-old daughter and a friend hitch-hiked across two countries in Europe (she got a big lecture about the dangers of this) and said that various drivers dropped them off at intersections along the way. So Maura may have made it to a main highway where the possibility of running into a killer would be much greater.

Just my random thoughts at the moment.
I'm glad her case is still so active here (and elsewhere) on the internet.

I guess about the only thing we know for certain (and that is if you trust the dog search) is that Maura headed east on foot to the Bradley Hill intersection.

After that all bets are off.

She could've accepted a ride from a stranger that resulted in personal harm to her or didn't result in personal harm.

A good samaritan may have taken her further east and dropped her off somewhere a few miles ahead and safely away from where her car accident took place. That same good samaritan may have just been passing through and has never thought back to that night again and (if they weren't local) likely never heard about Maura going missing, unless they happened to see the ID Disappeared show.

 

[scoops]

I totally agree. The tandem theory seems ridiculous to me. What kind of guy would let their girlfriend (who they supposedly care about) drive an unreliable car when she has a recent history of drink driving and was drinking that very day. By all accounts, Maura herself was wary enough of that car to not even want to drive it to work or around campus. If she wanted to disappear with a guy she could easily get a bus and have him pick her up at the stop etc..
Noone in their right minds would stage a crash RIGHT outside people's houses when they could stage a crash on another part of the road where noone lives and they'll be unseen.

Going back to your earlier point about suicide and her plans being thwarted by the crash. You mentioned her escalating her plans instead of regrouping and waiting until the next day. Do you think she tried to commit suicide in the woods? I was thinking how sad it is that if she was planning to kill herself on the top of the white mountains with an amazing view, what a bleak alternative it is to have to do it in the pitch black of the freezing woods. I hope to God that isn't the case because that makes me want to cry

Definitely not a pleasant thing to think about.

I don't think it is fully impossible that she wouldn't still have made it at least to her final destination area (whichever mountain she preferred).

If she got a ride from a good Samaritan, she could've had them drop her off closer to where she wanted to go. She would've been able to come up with a story that would not make them suspicious of her in any way.

She didn't take clothes with her or her personal belongings. I can't see her following through with a one night stay in a hotel. Plus, my hunch is, she would be kind of paranoid, knowing that at least someone (police) was looking for her by now. (even though they really weren't yet).


I don't believe (after her wreck) that she felt like she had a lot of time to make something happen, whether it was a "planned out" suicide, running away or clearing her head or any other theory that has been introduced.

 

[nevereverever]

I personally think Renner is full of it. Ironically, the McStay family was found murdered and buried in the desert very shortly after that case's own "Renner" posted on his blog that he had blockbuster evidence (!!!!), photographic proof even, of Mr. McStay being alive and well in Guadalajara, Mexico. And when the unidentified 4 bodies were found, and some started speculating they could be the McStays, he posted there was "no way" it was them. So... there's that, fwiw.

I wanted to go back to what someone else said, that this "little misuse of a credit card" thing WOULD have been a big deal to Maura. I agree. She could've been charged with a felony. A felony conviction could very well have prevented her from getting her nursing license. At the very least, it would have put it in doubt. And this was on top of whatever happened with her that led to her leaving West Point, her apparent eating disorder, and then the car accident where she had been drinking. I just get the sense that she really felt like her life was spinning out of control.

 

[scoops]

I personally think Renner is full of it. Ironically, the McStay family was found murdered and buried in the desert very shortly after that case's own "Renner" posted on his blog that he had blockbuster evidence (!!!!), photographic proof even, of Mr. McStay being alive and well in Guadalajara, Mexico. And when the unidentified 4 bodies were found, and some started speculating they could be the McStays, he posted there was "no way" it was them. So... there's that, fwiw.

I wanted to go back to what someone else said, that this "little misuse of a credit card" thing WOULD have been a big deal to Maura. I agree. She could've been charged with a felony. A felony conviction could very well have prevented her from getting her nursing license. At the very least, it would have put it in doubt. And this was on top of whatever happened with her that led to her leaving West Point, her apparent eating disorder, and then the car accident where she had been drinking. I just get the sense that she really felt like her life was spinning out of control.

But Maura wasn't charged with a felony. This wasn't going to appear on her record at all after a three month probationary period (If I understand it right).

And her first wreck with her dad's car didn't result in any charges either.

The police officer noted that the wreck was caused due to driver inattention (IMO, that was for insurance purposes) had nothing to do with committing a crime.

Maura wasn't in any legitimate trouble from either of those two incidents. IMO she got off rather easily from both of those incidents.

Now her second wreck where she went missing, she was in trouble, but I think her plans (whatever those were) were developed before she had the wreck not after the fact and as a result of the wreck.

What say y'all?

 

[goldiegirl]

Does he honestly believe that if the public found out about Maura using someone else's credit card to order a pizza that we would stop looking for her? stop caring about her plight? Absurd.

Respectfully snipped.

Just wanted to say that this reminds me of how Nancy Grace always has to refer to a missing person as an "Honors Student", etc., as if it does make some difference. Of course it is absurd if Fred believes that, but clearly there are people out there who do.

 

[Lolacat]

I personally think Renner is full of it. Ironically, the McStay family was found murdered and buried in the desert very shortly after that case's own "Renner" posted on his blog that he had blockbuster evidence (!!!!), photographic proof even, of Mr. McStay being alive and well in Guadalajara, Mexico. And when the unidentified 4 bodies were found, and some started speculating they could be the McStays, he posted there was "no way" it was them. So... there's that, fwiw.

I wanted to go back to what someone else said, that this "little misuse of a credit card" thing WOULD have been a big deal to Maura. I agree. She could've been charged with a felony. A felony conviction could very well have prevented her from getting her nursing license. At the very least, it would have put it in doubt. And this was on top of whatever happened with her that led to her leaving West Point, her apparent eating disorder, and then the car accident where she had been drinking. I just get the sense that she really felt like her life was spinning out of control.

Yes, the author of the Mcstay book made an apology on Amazon in the comments section and offered to refund everyone who bought the book their money back (and rightly so, considering he was wrongly pointing the finger at the wife).

I think the credit card issue meant she was on probation so she just had to stay out of trouble for 3 months or so. I suppose thats why people are wondering if she was involved in the Vasi hit and run because that time line fits and it definitely would be bad enough for her to feel she had to go/escape/do away with herself etc. Although, I dont think there is any actual evidence she was involved in this.

 

[Lolacat]

Respectfully snipped.

Just wanted to say that this reminds me of how Nancy Grace always has to refer to a missing person as an "Honors Student", etc., as if it does make some difference. Of course it is absurd if Fred believes that, but clearly there are people out there who do.

Sadly, I agree. There have been enough rape trials where the victim's clothing has been called into question as somehow being "partly responsible" for the crime which does contribute to a culture of *victim blaming* in the media. Obviously, not everyone thinks like this but there is an element of it out there amongst the general public. I think especially when drugs are involved. People hear drugs and just automatically assume that the person was killed by a drug dealer. Its something they dont want to get involved in and its relatively easy to dismiss. But when its a girl who *appears* to be innocent and promising they take more of an interest because it makes them realise it could also happen to them. The fear becomes more real and tangible.

 

[OldSteve]

I guess about the only thing we know for certain (and that is if you trust the dog search) is that Maura headed east on foot to the Bradley Hill intersection.

After that all bets are off.

She could've accepted a ride from a stranger that resulted in personal harm to her or didn't result in personal harm.

A good samaritan may have taken her further east and dropped her off somewhere a few miles ahead and safely away from where her car accident took place. That same good samaritan may have just been passing through and has never thought back to that night again and (if they weren't local) likely never heard about Maura going missing, unless they happened to see the ID Disappeared show.

Looking at things in terms of "what are the odds" -

since she refuse help from the Bus Driver - the odds of accepting a ride from anyone become less. Though once out of her car and realizing there's no place to really go, and CMIIW she was only wearing thin sole shoes, so odds go back up of accepting a ride...

With so many years passing by, the odds increase that anyone who gave her a ride would realize it.... though, on the other hand, they might figure why become involved since no one knows.

Someone out-of-the-blue giving her a ride, odds are they would not do her any harm.

Okay, you can see, I'm confused... too bad they did not fly over the areas in the mountains she seemed interested in, to check for foot prints in the snow... seems too much focus on immediate area of car crash...

 

[scoops]

ON THE DRIVING IN TANDEM THEORY:

In this particular theory, one of the implications being made currently is that Maura was fed up with her family and sought out an accomplice to help her run away and begin a new life in a new country.

But, besides spending winter break with her boyfriend, Maura also had spent plenty of quality time with her father in the few months before she went missing (Unless her father is making things like this account of their hiking adventure up)

Article excerpt taken from New Hampshire Union Leader in 2007


Murray has many fine memories of runs and hikes with Maura, but one of the best was the autumn before she disappeared.

"We were concluding our collection of 4,000-footers. I was doing the last three I hadn't done." One day, they hiked to Owl's Head; the next day 23 miles on three 4,000-foot peaks.
"Then she whipped out of her knapsack for finishing my 48th, a Long Trail Ale, and handed it to me on the summit of West Bond.
" It was typical Maura," Murray said.



To me, (and I know this is just one example), but it doesn't seem like Maura couldn't stand her father. I would think with school going on that Maura could've easily cancelled (going hiking) with her father if she hated his guts or was in somehow afraid of him.


Maura was on her own and a young adult living miles away from her father, yet just three months before she goes missing, she is spending entire weekends with her father hiking in the mountains.


Doesn't add up to a girl wanting to run away from family. IMO.

 

[Fireweed]

For what it's worth, Renner just went to Canada to put up some flyers and to look for Maura. I think Renner has collected some great information about Maura, but he does have a book to get published, so I take everything he writes there with a grain of salt.

I hope that Maura is alive and Canada and has had a happy life.

 

[BillNH]

Yes, the author of the Mcstay book made an apology on Amazon in the comments section and offered to refund everyone who bought the book their money back (and rightly so, considering he was wrongly pointing the finger at the wife).

I think the credit card issue meant she was on probation so she just had to stay out of trouble for 3 months or so. I suppose thats why people are wondering if she was involved in the Vasi hit and run because that time line fits and it definitely would be bad enough for her to feel she had to go/escape/do away with herself etc. Although, I dont think there is any actual evidence she was involved in this.

The way I understood it, her case on the credit card issue was stayed for 3 months and was due to be dismissed after 3 months, providing she stayed out of any other trouble. She was not on probation. Probation is what happens after a conviction, and at the time, there was no ruling on her case.

So she was charged, answered the charges in court, the judge withheld any ruling until her court date 3 months later, which I believe was scheduled for less than a month after she disappeared. Had she had no other legal issues, the credit card charges were due to be dismissed at that time.

If Renner has accurate information, the Hadley officer he spoke to, Ruddock, said she was facing charges for the accident in Mass. Would it have been enough to turn a dismissal on CC fraud into a guilty ruling? Who knows.

I do believe that a guilty ruling on the CC charge would have made her staying in the nursing program very difficult if not impossible.

Does this all mean anything?...again, who knows. Multiple speculations built on top of a few facts does not add up to much except more speculation. We can each draw our own conclusions on the weight to give it.

 

[scoops]

The way I understood it, her case on the credit card issue was stayed for 3 months and was due to be dismissed after 3 months, providing she stayed out of any other trouble. She was not on probation. Probation is what happens after a conviction, and at the time, there was no ruling on her case.

So she was charged, answered the charges in court, the judge withheld any ruling until her court date 3 months later, which I believe was scheduled for less than a month after she disappeared. Had she had no other legal issues, the credit card charges were due to be dismissed at that time.

If Renner has accurate information, the Hadley officer he spoke to, Ruddock, said she was facing charges for the accident in Mass. Would it have been enough to turn a dismissal on CC fraud into a guilty ruling? Who knows.

I do believe that a guilty ruling on the CC charge would have made her staying in the nursing program very difficult if not impossible.

Does this all mean anything?...again, who knows. Multiple speculations built on top of a few facts does not add up to much except more speculation. We can each draw our own conclusions on the weight to give it.

I would definitely question whether or not Maura was facing any sort of trouble from her first wreck. She wasn't given a ticket and she was released right after the wreck. The police report cited driver inattention as the cause of the wreck, the story is her car skidded through a stop sign because of an icy road. I don't know anyone who gets in trouble for their car sliding on ice.

Nothing was done on (whether or not Maura had been drinking) from that incident.

So I have no clue, why years later this officer would tell James that Maura was facing charges from that wreck.

 

[Lolacat]

For what it's worth, Renner just went to Canada to put up some flyers and to look for Maura. I think Renner has collected some great information about Maura, but he does have a book to get published, so I take everything he writes there with a grain of salt.

I hope that Maura is alive and Canada and has had a happy life.

I saw that! To be honest, it still sounds like a needle in a haystack scenario. What if he finds a passer by who says, "oh sure, I know that girl, she works at xyz". He goes there and she isn't working that day. What then? I dont know how he is going to verify that its her.

Ive been going through his blog and a few things completely baffle me. I believe his sources because he spoke with them first hand, its not just hearsay from other reports.

1. When Maura got the mysterious telephone call on the Thursday night that caused her to be so upset she is described by her supervisor as being virtually *catatonic* afterwards. Like, literally, just staring off into space unable to talk. Then she bursts into tears and her supervisor has to physically sign her out of the building because she is so upset. What on earth could cause such an extreme reaction? I highly doubt it was because she just found out her boyfriend was cheating on her. That would cause upset and anger for sure (DEFINATELY anger!) but to be so completely stunned just doesnt fit to me. Her reaction seems that of utter shock to me.
THEN, according to her phone records that night (published on the blog) she rings dominos pizza in Hadley at 3.40am (they close at 4am). Could this be a bulimic coping mechanism? Pizza does seem to be her food of choice when she is emotional.

2. Fred. The reports on the blog seem very much split 50/50. He is the villain in some people's eyes- eg. Tim carpenter- (Maura's sister's ex husband) who seems to be implying some rather sinister things about Fred (although, as an ex he may well have a large axe to grind). A hero in the eyes of others- eg. Sharon Rausch etc. Maura's sister Julie says, "Is he a hardass? yes. Did he drive us hard? yes. Is he the best father a girl could have? yes.". WHY does Renner believe that Fred knows where Maura was going that weekend? (he doesnt believe he had anything to do with her actual disappearance btw, but he does think he knows the reason for Maura's trip and is not saying).

Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[Fireweed]

WHY does Renner believe that Fred knows where Maura was going that weekend? (he doesnt believe he had anything to do with her actual disappearance btw, but he does think he knows the reason for Maura's trip and is not saying).

Well let's see.

- Renner could find no evidence other than Fred's word that he was there that weekend to go car shopping.

- Neither Maura nor Fred say anything to Kate that night at dinner about having gone car shopping.

- A car was not purchased.

- When Fred talks about shopping for a car that weekend on the ID show he follows it with "you know?", on of the tells of a deceptive statement.

-Fred comes up the weekend after the traumatic Thursday night phone call and Maura disappears that Monday.

- Fred may or may not have had $4,000 cash on him "for the car" and many people suspect that Maura had a lot more money on her than $240.

- Fred's statements about Maura coming to his hotel room that night are inconsistent.


I do not think Fred is "sinister" or a "bad person." In fact I think he is a "good father" who sees himself as doing what a good father does and protecting his daughter from whatever it is he thinks she needed him for.

You do not have to think that Fred is "bad" to question his reasons for visiting Maura that weekend. I personally do not think they were there to go car shopping. I think Fred came up there because Maura was in a crisis. I also think that his subsequent statements point to (but do not prove) the fact that Fred knows why Maura drove up there and why she disappeared.

Again, since people who question Fred are accused of "bashing" him, I want to make it clear here that I have nothing against Fred Murray on any sort of personal level. I do not know the man. But I do not think that we would be very good sleuths if we did not question his version of events.

 

[OldSteve]

Well let's see.

- Renner could find no evidence other than Fred's word that he was there that weekend to go car shopping.

- Neither Maura nor Fred say anything to Kate that night at dinner about having gone car shopping.

- A car was not purchased.

- When Fred talks about shopping for a car that weekend on the ID show he follows it with "you know?", on of the tells of a deceptive statement.

-Fred comes up the weekend after the traumatic Thursday night phone call and Maura disappears that Monday.

- Fred may or may not have had $4,000 cash on him "for the car" and many people suspect that Maura had a lot more money on her than $240.

- Fred's statements about Maura coming to his hotel room that night are inconsistent.


I do not think Fred is "sinister" or a "bad person." In fact I think he is a "good father" who sees himself as doing what a good father does and protecting his daughter from whatever it is he thinks she needed him for.

You do not have to think that Fred is "bad" to question his reasons for visiting Maura that weekend. I personally do not think they were there to go car shopping. I think Fred came up there because Maura was in a crisis. I also think that his subsequent statements point to (but do not prove) the fact that Fred knows why Maura drove up there and why she disappeared.

Again, since people who question Fred are accused of "bashing" him, I want to make it clear here that I have nothing against Fred Murray on any sort of personal level. I do not know the man. But I do not think that we would be very good sleuths if we did not question his version of events.

What you say makes sense... there appears to have allot going on in her life that we don't really know, and all reasons for to take off on that fateful trip... It even sounded like Fred feared her mission was a trip to to end it all...
It would be quite a twist of fate if that was her mission, but before she got to carry it out she became a victim of foul play...

 

[BillNH]

I would definitely question whether or not Maura was facing any sort of trouble from her first wreck. She wasn't given a ticket and she was released right after the wreck. The police report cited driver inattention as the cause of the wreck, the story is her car skidded through a stop sign because of an icy road. I don't know anyone who gets in trouble for their car sliding on ice.

Nothing was done on (whether or not Maura had been drinking) from that incident.

So I have no clue, why years later this officer would tell James that Maura was facing charges from that wreck.

You often hear (on the news) about "charges pending" after a car accident, the idea being that the accident needs to be fully investigated. So Maura not being charged that night does not seem very unusual. What most people believe is that she was drunk, and it would not make sense for her to be set free if that were the case. Usually thats where the thought process ends and charges from that night are dismissed. There are other crimes she could have committed, in fact I believe there is a whole book full of them for most states. Possession of a controlled substance for instance..not horribly serious, still allowed to head home, but certainly could have ended her nursing career. Just using that as an example, first thing that came to mind, don't want to start a new rumor. However, the point being...we try to make every bit of information fit or support the things we know and discount the things that don't appear to fit, but we all know, even in our own lives, a days events don't fit together like pieces of a puzzle, one thing building on another to be reconstructed logically by someone else later.