NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[Fireweed]

And you may very well be onto something.

I guess the reason I am not more suspicious about this get-together is that (from what I can tell) no one has given a conflicting account about that.

I fully understand that people aren't always truthful, but in this specific instance, I guess I am just giving them the benefit of the doubt because nothing points (at least to me) to either sara or kate being deceitful

And I may go against the grain here, but I don't think the statement that was supposedly made to one of Maura's spokespeople (Helena Murray) about them telling Fred "the real story" is going to amount to anything.

The real story could just be the girls telling Fred about what they did that Saturday night.

No one has given much of an account of it, period. It has simply been stated that there was a party in a dorm. I consider the information conflicting because apparently all the other attendees were ghosts. I find that odd. I find it odd that you and many others do not find that odd. Mainly I find it odd that you could take the account of that night at face value when it was apparently the thing that drove Maura to take off into the abyss for eternity. How could someone who likes to sleuth not question it six ways to Sunday? Until one other person from that party comes forward, I am going to assume that there was no party; it is just yet another lie from the people who claim that they love Maura and want her found.

 

[carpanthers]

Yes, and the account of this party is particularly strange in light of Maura allegedly driving to her dad's room in the middle of the night. We can't act like this is normal, we've been wondering for years what would possibly compel her to do such a thing. Why didn't Fred just drop the girls off and drive his own car back to the motel? We have always wondered that.

 

[Fireweed]

Well, the "reason" according to many here is that Fred was drunk. Okay, I can actually buy that, but then why would Maura insist on getting the car back to him that night? I know there are some "bad" parents out there, but I have never heard of a parent being angry that their child chose not to drive after drinking at 2 in the morning.

Unless Maura was totally insane, then there must have been a real reason why she needed to get the car over to the hotel that night.

 

[carpanthers]

And if the car did need to be at the hotel that night, we again have to ask ourselves why Fred didn't drop the girls off at the dorm. If Fred was too drunk to drive, why didn't Maura drive Kate to the dorm and drive her and her father back to the motel room. If we're to believe any of the stories about this night, Maura had a key card. When she went shopping for cars with her father, she must have brought a bag to the motel. Fred says that she worked out, and then they went to dinner. I feel pretty confident she didn't shop for cars, work out at the hotel gym, and go out to dinner all while wearing the same outfit. That would be an uncomfortable workout or a smelly dinner.

 

[Fireweed]

I feel pretty confident that nothing that Fred said happened that day actually happened, except perhaps the dinner with Kate. I think the rest is all nonsense.

 

[scoops]

There was this google docs file earlier with all the accident reports etc, but I can't find anymore by conventional searching (not even caches).

Question; does anybody know when this documentary is supposed to be finished/released?

here is a link to the UMASS car accident gleaned from James Renner's Blog.

When you open the link, scroll down to page 8 I believe.

I have a copy of the UMASS police codes that they use for accidents and such.

If anyone wants to know what a number means, ask away.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7_atAFvowRhNnA5N0JrSDBfbkk/edit

 

[scoops]

No one has given much of an account of it, period. It has simply been stated that there was a party in a dorm. I consider the information conflicting because apparently all the other attendees were ghosts. I find that odd. I find it odd that you and many others do not find that odd. Mainly I find it odd that you could take the account of that night at face value when it was apparently the thing that drove Maura to take off into the abyss for eternity. How could someone who likes to sleuth not question it six ways to Sunday? Until one other person from that party comes forward, I am going to assume that there was no party; it is just yet another lie from the people who claim that they love Maura and want her found.

I guess I don't find it odd, because I think Maura's troubles began that Thursday night.

I think Maura was struggling through whatever it was that was bothering her and her father did what he could do to try and help her that weekend, but he had to get back to work.

I think the dorm party may have been somewhat of a relief for Fred that maybe Maura could use that opportunity to get things off her mind.

But the fact that this person had two automobile accidents in a very short window of time, (one described as being a head-on crash which could suggest a suicide attempt that sunday morning,) and the conclusion is that you have a very self-destructive, disturbed person on your hands.

So am I suspicious about the events of that Saturday night. Heck yes. But not so much about the details of what happened at the dorm or at the ABC brew pub, but my suspicion is more about the thought-process of Maura that entire weekend, which appeared to be not right.

 

[carpanthers]

Fred didn't make Maura sound more innocent or less suicidal in any way. (I'm not saying he didn't try to convince the police she wasn't, I'm just saying the lies he tells in his statement are for a different purpose and are not designed to dissuade anybody from thinking she was suicidal).

Although I always found myself suspicious of Fred Murray's statements, as early as yesterday I thought, and posted, that maybe all of his lies and Kate and Sara's potential lies were just to defend Maura's reputation and keep the search for her going. I never thought he was guilty of something like this until I reread his statement while presuming his innocence and trying to build a case for man who was just trying to make sure people were looking for his daughter. By the time I got to the end of that statement, I no longer believed a single word he ever said.

Fred Murray's lies aren't designed to make Maura look good or seem happier than she was. Their content bears this out. His lies are the kind of lies that come from hiding guilty knowledge, and their particular design is to mislead investigators about what happened the night of the Hadley crash. That is why he lies about issues that are material to the facts of that night, and not about Maura's state of mind. If his lies stem from a desire to convince others that Maura was not suicidal, why did he tell us the following things?

1. He told Maura that she was lucky she didn't get a ticket for DUI.
2. Maura was making whimpering sounds in the car.
3. At the motel she said 'this is the wors[t]'
4. She was feeling bad because she let him down.
5. She slumped her way into the dorm.

If his lies are designed to make it seem like she wasn't suicidal, why does he tell us these things? If anything, he wants to convince us that she was in a fragile mental state.

 

[stephsb]

I've always thought that the reason MM went to visit FM at the hotel because she was extremely upset about whatever had been bothering her, and either didn't want to be alone in her dorm or wanted to discuss whatever it was w. FM/be w. a family member, etc. I think that something was definitely going on with MM and BR's relationship, and her behavior w. him prior to her disappearance makes me seriously question SR's descriptions of their relationship. JMO, but her attempts to portray MM's relationship w. BR as absolutely perfect, even if it means ignoring evidence that may show otherwise are topped only by FM's continual insistence that a dirtbag took MM, even when all evidence, including his own initial thoughts, point towards her willingly disappearing, possibly to harm herself. MM made several calls to BR from the hotel, which presumably could have had to do w. the accident, but it's clear there was something really going on w. her emotional state

 

[Fireweed]

@Scoops: I agree that her thought process was screwy, but I guess my bafflement at your posts over the years here is this: we have a person who has been missing for ten years with no leads whatsoever. You are seemingly inflexible in what you believe the "facts" of this case are. I guess my question to you is, do you think that is working? I mean, we could be all wrong and everything that Fred and Kate and Sara said was true, but we have gone with their truth and gotten nowhere. We are here to sleuth. Don't you think that after ten years that maybe you could be willing to open your mind a little and reconsider some of the things that you have insisted to all of us are "facts" are perhaps not true at all? I respect that you have done a lot of research, but your stubbornness about not entertaining a discussion of whether or not what we know is even true, is odd to me. It is odd to me because we have gone with what you consider to be the truth of this case for nearly eleven years and it has gotten us nowhere. I am not saying you are wrong, rather I am wondering why you are so defensive of what you believe the facts are, when those facts have not led to a single, solitary smidgen of evidence leading to Maura. I just do not understand why you are so inflexible about at least entertaining some different theories.

 

[carpanthers]

Here's why I think it's possible Thursday had nothing to do with it:

Maura spoke to her sister according to her phone records, a conversation that lasted about twenty minutes. I think all odds say that this was her break. It was at a time of night when there would be heavy foot traffic in the dorm she worked, and I doubt she could have gotten away with a twenty minute phone call. Her sister said that they talked about their boyfriends, and I don't see why we don't believe her. She has never lied on record. The reason we think that this call upset her is because it was longer than the calls to the boyfriend, but that doesn't mean her sister told her something upsetting or that she was upset because of a phone call.

I don't see any reason why Maura couldn't have already been upset, and that is why she called her boyfriend. Perhaps they had an argument that we aren't privy to earlier that day or the previous night, which would seem to corroborate Kathleen's statements, which we again have no reason to doubt. Perhaps, like many of us, Maura would have wanted to reach out to her family for sympathy and then called her boyfriend to try to resolve things. When coworkers and her supervisor saw her upset, she may have genuinely been upset, or she may have been trying to excuse her phone use, which was expressly forbidden at her job. The "my sister" comment seems vague and serious enough to excuse her cell phone use while not necessarily inviting more questions, because people tend to presume that family matters are private.

 

[carpanthers]

Another question about the party and the mystery guests: presuming that the friends were Sara's, explaining why Kate didn't know them, why wouldn't Sara remember who they were in the morning? Did these friends come into Sara's room while she was already unconscious and hang out with Kate and Maura until Maura left? Why couldn't Kate and Sara have checked with each other? Why didn't Kate describe them to Sara for Sara to determine who they were? Why didn't Sara ask around, "Hey, my best friend is a missing person and I can't remember who came to my dorm room the night she had an accident. You didn't happen to be in my dorm room last night, did you?"

 

[Philigumbo]

Yes, and the account of this party is particularly strange in light of Maura allegedly driving to her dad's room in the middle of the night. We can't act like this is normal, we've been wondering for years what would possibly compel her to do such a thing. Why didn't Fred just drop the girls off and drive his own car back to the motel? We have always wondered that.

Perhaps an intoxicated Fred was sleeping it off parked in the dorm parking lot. If so, Maura may have been worried that he'd be seen by security, come into the dorm and embarrass them all, or afraid he'd freeze to death? Thus her wanting to go back to his hotel at that late hour. He could have left the scene before LE arrived.

 

[Fireweed]

Another question about the party and the mystery guests: presuming that the friends were Sara's, explaining why Kate didn't know them, why wouldn't Sara remember who they were in the morning? Did these friends come into Sara's room while she was already unconscious and hang out with Kate and Maura until Maura left? Why couldn't Kate and Sara have checked with each other? Why didn't Kate describe them to Sara for Sara to determine who they were? Why didn't Sara ask around, "Hey, my best friend is a missing person and I can't remember who came to my dorm room the night she had an accident. You didn't happen to be in my dorm room last night, did you?"

I mean gee, for golly's sake, like wouldn't you track down every single person at that party the day you knew Maura was missing and ask them if Maura said anything to them that night? Surely that would just make perfect sense. I dunno, sometimes when people have a little booze in them they let some things slip.

Oh right, silly me. Not only can neither Kate nor Sara recall a single person who was there, but they also did not recall who was there a mere two days later. For all we know, Maura said something to someone at the party that could have been relevant. But never mind. I have been told repeatedly that none of this matters at all (because apparently there are a lot of physics out there), and that of course there was a party, and of course it does not matter and of course both Kate and Sara went to a party where they knew no one and were not introduced to anyone or never saw anyone from that party later just walking around the dorms and of course no one from that party ever got together and wracked their brains to see if Maura said or did anything that might be a clue into her disappearance.

Of course it all makes sense that is happened that way.

 

[carpanthers]

I mean gee, for golly's sake, like wouldn't you track down every single person at that party the day you knew Maura was missing and ask them if Maura said anything to them that night? Surely that would just make perfect sense. I dunno, sometimes when people have a little booze in them they let some things slip.

Oh right, silly me. Not only can neither Kate nor Sara recall a single person who was there, but they also did not recall who was there a mere two days later. For all we know, Maura said something to someone at the party that could have been relevant. But never mind. I have been told repeatedly that none of this matters at all (because apparently there are a lot of physics out there), and that of course there was a party, and of course it does not matter and of course both Kate and Sara went to a party where they knew no one and were not introduced to anyone or never saw anyone from that party later just walking around the dorms and of course no one from that party ever got together and wracked their brains to see if Maura said or did anything that might be a clue into her disappearance.

Of course it all makes sense that is happened that way.

And of course Maura would drive back to her father's motel room in the middle of the night, the motel room she presumably would have been sharing with both Fred and Kate if the girls didn't return to the dorms to party against the advice of Fred. The fact that we have all been speculating about why she would do that for years should tell you how suspicious that story is. After all, we know by guessing that she had pressing matters to discuss with him.

If you lie to one set of investigators and refuse to speak to others, I consider you a suspect, period. I don't think he killed her, but I've only seen these kind of lies in police statements where the speaker is trying to cover or excuse his words, actions and motives.

 

[scoops]

I mean gee, for golly's sake, like wouldn't you track down every single person at that party the day you knew Maura was missing and ask them if Maura said anything to them that night? Surely that would just make perfect sense. I dunno, sometimes when people have a little booze in them they let some things slip.

Oh right, silly me. Not only can neither Kate nor Sara recall a single person who was there, but they also did not recall who was there a mere two days later. For all we know, Maura said something to someone at the party that could have been relevant. But never mind. I have been told repeatedly that none of this matters at all (because apparently there are a lot of physics out there), and that of course there was a party, and of course it does not matter and of course both Kate and Sara went to a party where they knew no one and were not introduced to anyone or never saw anyone from that party later just walking around the dorms and of course no one from that party ever got together and wracked their brains to see if Maura said or did anything that might be a clue into her disappearance.

Of course it all makes sense that is happened that way.

sara has never said she didn't know who was in her dorm room that night.

I am beyond confident that police know every name of every person that was in that dorm room that night and have been in contact with them.

Why we haven't heard about it, is probably because there wasn't much to tell.


I don't know what exactly you are implying with this get-together. Do you think something happened to Maura in that dorm room?

Kate has said that Maura wasn't making much sense. That doesn't sound like someone "covering" for a friend, that sounds like someone who is also puzzled (like everyone else) by Maura's behavior.

Why Maura decided to return to her father's hotel is the million dollar question of that night, but by all accounts including the police officer, no one was forcing Maura to go to her dad's hotel, this was her decision and her's alone.

You are frustrated because I am not more skeptical about this dorm get-together. But let me tell you frustration ...


Maura has spent time (just three-plus months prior) in all three locations that she is said to have map directions/computer map directions for when she went missing.

She has planned her wedding for the white mountains, she has a book about misadventure and tragedy happening in the white mountains and yet very few people seem to have a clue that maybe, just maybe, Maura was headed for the mountains that day she went missing.

We can jump on all these other theories, she was running away to Canada, she was heading off to some random party, (even though she had directions for three very far apart hiking trails with her which I don't know maybe shows she hadn't made up her mind where she was going until the last moment).

So there is my frustration. this stuff is easily researched.

 

[Fireweed]

And of course Maura would drive back to her father's motel room in the middle of the night, the motel room she presumably would have been sharing with both Fred and Kate if the girls didn't return to the dorms to party against the advice of Fred. The fact that we have all been speculating about why she would do that for years should tell you how suspicious that story is. After all, we know by guessing that she had pressing matters to discuss with him.

If you lie to one set of investigators and refuse to speak to others, I consider you a suspect, period. I don't think he killed her, but I've only seen these kind of lies in police statements where the speaker is trying to cover or excuse his words, actions and motives.

I do not think that Fred killed Maura, no. But his language indicates deception. I think he is lying about something that he at least, think is important enough to lie about. Well, for one thing, he knows why Maura came back to his hotel that night. In fact, that must have been the first thing he asked when she got there and told him the car had been wrecked. So why then is that a big secret? He must know that people consider that a "mysterious" part of this case. How about answering it and letting everyone move on? Why is that an impossible thing for him to do?

 

[carpanthers]

sara has never said she didn't know who was in her dorm room that night.

I am beyond confident that police know every name of every person that was in that dorm room that night and have been in contact with them.

Why we haven't heard about it, is probably because there wasn't much to tell.


I don't know what exactly you are implying with this get-together. Do you think something happened to Maura in that dorm room?

Kate has said that Maura wasn't making much sense. That doesn't sound like someone "covering" for a friend, that sounds like someone who is also puzzled (like everyone else) by Maura's behavior.

Why Maura decided to return to her father's hotel is the million dollar question of that night, but by all accounts including the police officer, no one was forcing Maura to go to her dad's hotel, this was her decision and her's alone.

You are frustrated because I am not more skeptical about this dorm get-together. But let me tell you frustration ...


Maura has spent time (just three-plus months prior) in all three locations that she is said to have map directions/computer map directions for when she went missing.

She has planned her wedding for the white mountains, she has a book about misadventure and tragedy happening in the white mountains and yet very few people seem to have a clue that maybe, just maybe, Maura was headed for the mountains that day she went missing.

We can jump on all these other theories, she was running away to Canada, she was heading off to some random party, (even though she had directions for three very far apart hiking trails with her which I don't know maybe shows she hadn't made up her mind where she was going until the last moment).

So there is my frustration. this stuff is easily researched.

Here's a fact: Kate never said that "Maura wasn't making much sense." That implies that Maura is acting strangely. She actually said "It didn't make any sense. Why would Maura who'd had a few drinks and seemed tired, go to the trouble of driving all the way to her dad's hotel in the middle of the night? When she didn't need to?"

She didn't say Maura wasn't making sense, she said Maura's alleged reasons for driving to the motel room didn't make sense.

 

[Fireweed]

sara has never said she didn't know who was in her dorm room that night.

I am beyond confident that police know every name of every person that was in that dorm room that night and have been in contact with them.

Why we haven't heard about it, is probably because there wasn't much to tell.


I don't know what exactly you are implying with this get-together. Do you think something happened to Maura in that dorm room?

Kate has said that Maura wasn't making much sense. That doesn't sound like someone "covering" for a friend, that sounds like someone who is also puzzled (like everyone else) by Maura's behavior.

Why Maura decided to return to her father's hotel is the million dollar question of that night, but by all accounts including the police officer, no one was forcing Maura to go to her dad's hotel, this was her decision and her's alone.

You are frustrated because I am not more skeptical about this dorm get-together. But let me tell you frustration ...


Maura has spent time (just three-plus months prior) in all three locations that she is said to have map directions/computer map directions for when she went missing.

She has planned her wedding for the white mountains, she has a book about misadventure and tragedy happening in the white mountains and yet very few people seem to have a clue that maybe, just maybe, Maura was headed for the mountains that day she went missing.

We can jump on all these other theories, she was running away to Canada, she was heading off to some random party, (even though she had directions for three very far apart hiking trails with her which I don't know maybe shows she hadn't made up her mind where she was going until the last moment).

So there is my frustration. this stuff is easily researched.

But it does not have to be the million dollar question, because Fred knows the answer, and last I checked, he is still alive. Do you not see that the things that are "mysteries" in this case are only mysteries because some people are either lying or remaining silent? To me that reeks of a cover-up of some sort. Do you see why I am questioning the party line here? Fred knows why Maura came to the hotel, or at the very least he knows why she told him she came there. He could naturally just clear that up, but he chooses instead to bash law enforcement. Okay....BTW, he is the only one who does that. Everyone else seems to agree that LE did a perfectly competent job considering the circumstances. This is the classic thing a deceptive person does: they deflect interest away from them and on to someone else. Again, we have one big mystery here that is only a mystery because the chief witness is deceptive. I therefore refuse to believe that the "official" version is the truth.

I agree with you that Maura intended to head towards the White Mountains that afternoon. I do not know if her intent changed once she got there though. The Canada thing has never held much sway with me. To me "fleeing to Canada" is just sort of a default theory in all cases like this. I put it up there with being sold into white slavery: something that people claim happens all the time, but in actuality rarely or never happens.

 

[carpanthers]

sara has never said she didn't know who was in her dorm room that night.

I am beyond confident that police know every name of every person that was in that dorm room that night and have been in contact with them.

Why we haven't heard about it, is probably because there wasn't much to tell.


I don't know what exactly you are implying with this get-together. Do you think something happened to Maura in that dorm room?

Kate has said that Maura wasn't making much sense. That doesn't sound like someone "covering" for a friend, that sounds like someone who is also puzzled (like everyone else) by Maura's behavior.

Why Maura decided to return to her father's hotel is the million dollar question of that night, but by all accounts including the police officer, no one was forcing Maura to go to her dad's hotel, this was her decision and her's alone.

You are frustrated because I am not more skeptical about this dorm get-together. But let me tell you frustration ...


Maura has spent time (just three-plus months prior) in all three locations that she is said to have map directions/computer map directions for when she went missing.

She has planned her wedding for the white mountains, she has a book about misadventure and tragedy happening in the white mountains and yet very few people seem to have a clue that maybe, just maybe, Maura was headed for the mountains that day she went missing.

We can jump on all these other theories, she was running away to Canada, she was heading off to some random party, (even though she had directions for three very far apart hiking trails with her which I don't know maybe shows she hadn't made up her mind where she was going until the last moment).

So there is my frustration. this stuff is easily researched.

In addition to Kate's comments being that IT didn't make sense, not that Maura wasn't making sense, how can you be so confident that the police know the name of every person at the dorm party? I agree with you that the police know things that we do not, and therefore it is just as likely that they know there was no party, and they aren't sharing that with us either.