NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[Fireweed]

I wonder if one of these huts was part of Maura's plan? they would have been almost deserted in February, I would have thought.

They would have been deserted because they would have been inaccessible.

 

[Captain_Khan]

They would have been deserted because they would have been inaccessible.

Maybe that could be a reason why Maura might try to get to them? Remote, free of charge, surrounded by an area she believes she knows well enough to survive in...?

 

[BillNH]

Maybe that could be a reason why Maura might try to get to them? Remote, free of charge, surrounded by an area she believes she knows well enough to survive in...?

If survival was her intent then I do not think it likely she chose a hut as her destination. She would need to have been an experienced winter climber to even consider it, which she was not as far as we know. Even an experienced winter climber would have to think twice before considering a hike to one of these huts in early February. If suicide was the intent, then sure, it would be a great choice. Sneakers, hoodie and alcohol. She would surely have perished early on.

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

I was just browsing through the "Not without Peril" book and I didnt realise that there is a series of mountain huts actually located on various parts of the White Mountains. You can reserve overnight bunks there and from June to September they are staffed. They are open the rest of the year on a self-service basis.

The wiki entry:
High Huts of the White Mountains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder if one of these huts was part of Maura's plan? they would have been almost deserted in February, I would have thought.

This is the cornerstone of a compelling theory. I think the book that Maura had with her is often glossed over by people, including me. I think this is partly due to focused attention on the alcohol and exhaust rag, both ambiguous clues. It is also partly due to Fred's outright dismissal of the book. His insistence on the irrelevance of this book in itself raises a flag. Without doubt the presence of that particular book is one of the stronger clues for suicide or death by misadventure. The message Maura left when she was 16 only strengthens the case, clearly this is an area she adored. And it doesn't take a leap of the imagination to see Maura heading for that place when she is depressed / at the end of her tether.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

If survival was her intent then I do not think it likely she chose a hut as her destination. She would need to have been an experienced winter climber to even consider it, which she was not as far as we know. Even an experienced winter climber would have to think twice before considering a hike to one of these huts in early February. If suicide was the intent, then sure, it would be a great choice. Sneakers, hoodie and alcohol. She would surely have perished early on.

My opinions only, no facts here:

If I understand you correctly, I tend to agree with you about this. The theoretical trip into the wintery wilderness just seems excessively complex to me. I am not saying it is wrong; it is just a very complex interpretation. If Maura perished by natural causes, it should have only been several miles from where she was last seen.

 

[Murkywaters]

And we definitely know 100 percent fact that Maura knew about those huts.

Once again, here is Maura in her own words at the age of 16.




Hi there,

My name is Maura Murray from Hanson MA and I've been going to
Jigger Johnson's campground, which is clearly the best, and hiking in
the White Mountains ever since I was too young to remember. I would
like to know if anyone out there has ever climbed Mt. Tripyramid (the
trail starts at Sabaday Falls) because I had quite an experience. I
also want to help out at the huts during the summer or manage trails
if there are any available jobs that someone knows about. Does anybody
have any bear or moose stories to tell because I would love to hear
them. Great website-bye

Maura at age 16

Sorry to ask, but where was this from?

 

[Captain_Khan]

If survival was her intent then I do not think it likely she chose a hut as her destination. She would need to have been an experienced winter climber to even consider it, which she was not as far as we know.

(Quote marks are broken, not sure why?)

Unless she either a) overestimated her own ability, or b) underestimated how difficult the huts would be to get to.

It's easy for us to look online and realise how hard it would be from the comfort of our homes. But if Maura was forced to make a snap decision with no ability to research? Could be a different story.

 

[BillNH]

If survival was her intent then I do not think it likely she chose a hut as her destination. She would need to have been an experienced winter climber to even consider it, which she was not as far as we know.

(Quote marks are broken, not sure why?)

Unless she either a) overestimated her own ability, or b) underestimated how difficult the huts would be to get to.

It's easy for us to look online and realise how hard it would be from the comfort of our homes. But if Maura was forced to make a snap decision with no ability to research? Could be a different story.

I don't disagree. The hut would be perfect for a "squaw walk".

 

[BillNH]

Sorry to ask, but where was this from?

It was a letter to a hiking publication from the area, I believe. I also believe there is a post on it at Renners or at least a copy in the documents section.

 

[scoops]

Sorry to ask, but where was this from?

It can be found in this guestbook. Maura's entry was Oct 6, 1998.


http://users.fred.net/kathy/at/guestbook.html

 

[Captain_Khan]

This is the cornerstone of a compelling theory. I think the book that Maura had with her is often glossed over by people, including me. ...Without doubt the presence of that particular book is one of the stronger clues for suicide or death by misadventure.

I strongly disagree that it suggests suicide. Maura loved hiking. It was a book about hiking. It was very popular amongst hikers at the time. To claim that Maura owning a popular book about her favourite hobby points to suicide is just too much of a leap of logic for me.

Death by misadventure, however, seems far more likely to me. With or without the book.

 

[Gene S.]

Has there every been a list released of exactly what was found in Maura's car? I know that there's a photo of her sister sitting with Maura's belongings from the car, but I've never seen an inventory.

I've seen postings on various forums and news articles about things that Maura was "known" to have brought with her from her dorm to New Hampshire--things like the stuffed animal, birth control, Tylenol PM, jewelry that Billy gave her. If those things weren't found in her car, I don't think we can say with certainty that Maura brought them with her to New Hampshire.

There may have been items of hers that friends and family were expecting to find in her dorm room but didn't find. The absence of these items could mean that Maura brought them with her to New Hampshire, but it could also mean that she threw them away (or otherwise disposed of them) at UMass before heading to New Hampshire.

Has a list of the car's contents ever been released?

 

[Lolacat]

I strongly disagree that it suggests suicide. Maura loved hiking. It was a book about hiking. It was very popular amongst hikers at the time. To claim that Maura owning a popular book about her favourite hobby points to suicide is just too much of a leap of logic for me.

Death by misadventure, however, seems far more likely to me. With or without the book.

I'm reading it at the moment- I'm not sure what to think TBH. There is a lot of death in it but there are also quite a lot of philosophical, inspiring passages. For example, from the chapter "A matter of life or death": (the chapter I believe Maura had book marked)

"We try to make our lives safe. For every hazard there are warnings and barriers, for every bold assertion there are fallback positions, for every fallible device there are back-up systems and redundancies...If all else fails we go to court; when a piece of bridge masonry fell through the top of a convertible, the driver sued the car company for making a cloth top that wouldn't keep out falling masonry. So when we talk about questions of life or death, we usually dont mean it. There do come times, though, perhaps only once in a lifetime, when we really do have to answer a question of life or death.The crew at Madison Spring hut had to do that one evening just as they were serving dinner to a full house; they were all college age and they were up against it..."

It also seems like people do go into the white mountains in winter, from the chapter, "the deadliest season":

"On new years day of 1998 I drove "around the mountains"- up through Pinkham notch, around the north end of the range through randolph, down the west side to Twin Mountain, around the south end through Crawford Notch, and back up to pinkham". I stopped at every parking lot that served trails giving access to 4,000 foot peaks and counted cars. The weather had been brutal and the previous night brought temperatures below zero in the valleys and equally threatening conditions on the heights. A generation eariler I would have been surprised to find any cars at all in these parking lots, but on this day I counted 231 vehicles". Later on though, he acknowledges that, "winter conditions are often beyond the endurance of the strongest person and many have died in the vicinity [of the Alpine Garden area on mount washington]".

I guess it could be interpreted as a guide to how to kill yourself in the white mountains OR as an inspiring read about people who have beat the odds and come out the other side.

 

[scoops]

I'm reading it at the moment- I'm not sure what to think TBH. There is a lot of death in it but there are also quite a lot of philosophical, inspiring passages. For example, from the chapter "A matter of life or death": (the chapter I believe Maura had book marked)

"We try to make our lives safe. For every hazard there are warnings and barriers, for every bold assertion there are fallback positions, for every fallible device there are back-up systems and redundancies...If all else fails we go to court; when a piece of bridge masonry fell through the top of a convertible, the driver sued the car company for making a cloth top that wouldn't keep out falling masonry. So when we talk about questions of life or death, we usually dont mean it. There do come times, though, perhaps only once in a lifetime, when we really do have to answer a question of life or death.The crew at Madison Spring hut had to do that one evening just as they were serving dinner to a full house; they were all college age and they were up against it..."

It also seems like people do go into the white mountains in winter, from the chapter, "the deadliest season":

"On new years day of 1998 I drove "around the mountains"- up through Pinkham notch, around the north end of the range through randolph, down the west side to Twin Mountain, around the south end through Crawford Notch, and back up to pinkham". I stopped at every parking lot that served trails giving access to 4,000 foot peaks and counted cars. The weather had been brutal and the previous night brought temperatures below zero in the valleys and equally threatening conditions on the heights. A generation eariler I would have been surprised to find any cars at all in these parking lots, but on this day I counted 231 vehicles". Later on though, he acknowledges that, "winter conditions are often beyond the endurance of the strongest person and many have died in the vicinity [of the Alpine Garden area on mount washington]".

I guess it could be interpreted as a guide to how to kill yourself in the white mountains OR as an inspiring read about people who have beat the odds and come out the other side.

From the interpretations I have been able to get from real hikers (Because I am not one and would not claim to understand their logic) the book almost romanticizes the danger and thrill of being put into that kind of a situation and it also comes off as describing people as being somewhat heroic in their attempts to survive.

All very impressionable stuff (IMO) for a young person to soak in.

If I were an avid hiker and I didn't much care about my "normal" life anymore, a place I loved would be where I wouldn't mind my life completing its final chapter.

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

I strongly disagree that it suggests suicide. Maura loved hiking. It was a book about hiking. It was very popular amongst hikers at the time. To claim that Maura owning a popular book about her favourite hobby points to suicide is just too much of a leap of logic for me.

Death by misadventure, however, seems far more likely to me. With or without the book.

Your point is valid, I am far more comfortable in using the term 'death by misadventure' as suicide implies a premeditated certainty in her actions taken. And I think after the car accident all premeditated plans go out the window for Maura. I do believe the book being in that car with her as she embarks on her journey does show a certain type of mindset, one which embraces risk, I think this falls into line with Maura drinking while behind the wheel. As the box was found empty I always assumed she might have drank a fair amount of the wine, even taking into account the leak. This intoxication would also likely subsequently impact on her risk taking.

To clarify the point; I am more comfortable looking at this as 'death by misadventure' rather than suicide. It is more accurate in my opinion and might convince some who could simply not fathom Maura committing to suicide.

 

[scoops]

Your point is valid, I am far more comfortable in using the term 'death by misadventure' as suicide implies a premeditated certainty in her actions taken. And I think after the car accident all premeditated plans go out the window for Maura. I do believe the book being in that car with her as she embarks on her journey does show a certain type of mindset, one which embraces risk, I think this falls into line with Maura drinking while behind the wheel. As the box was found empty I always assumed she might have drank a fair amount of the wine, even taking into account the leak. This intoxication would also likely subsequently impact on her risk taking.

To clarify the point; I am more comfortable looking at this as 'death by misadventure' rather than suicide. It is more accurate in my opinion and might convince some who could simply not fathom Maura committing to suicide.

I can go along with 'death by misadventure" as well.

I believe Maura really had a desire to create her own chapter of Not Without Peril, but regular life was going pretty good for her up to a certain point and for many years, she was content enough to just dream about that once in a lifetime dangerous/likely deadly hike.

Maybe she became disenchanted with her normal life, or had reached her tipping point.

 

[Jmoose]

If survival was her intent then I do not think it likely she chose a hut as her destination. She would need to have been an experienced winter climber to even consider it, which she was not as far as we know. Even an experienced winter climber would have to think twice before considering a hike to one of these huts in early February. If suicide was the intent, then sure, it would be a great choice. Sneakers, hoodie and alcohol. She would surely have perished early on.

Yeah, that would be ill-prepared for an August hike in the White Mountains. There's no way she'd think she was ready for a successful hike in the winter, dressed like that

 

[scoops]

Yeah, that would be ill-prepared for an August hike in the White Mountains. There's no way she'd think she was ready for a successful hike in the winter, dressed like that

I'm not disagreeing with your point, but Maura (From what I can tell) had packed the very same exact outfit she is seen wearing in a picture with her father posing on the summit of a mountain. That hike with her father (if I am not mistaken) happened in October.
She had the same pants and top packed for her "mystery trip" and shown in the photo with her sister clutching Maura's running shoe.

 

[Captain_Khan]

I touched on something earlier and wanted to expand on it, if possible.

Why was Maura in possession of her Father’s car at the time of her first accident?

Fred comes to Maura’s university with the intention of buying a new car with her (supposedly). He stays the night in a local hotel, lending Maura his car – despite the fact that he had to drive back home the next day.

Why? To me, this seems very strange. Apparently Maura wasn’t planning to drive anywhere – she was simply attending a party on campus that night. Why didn’t Fred just drop her off at Uni and keep the car himself? Unless the car was lent for another purpose, like an upcoming journey.

Is this somehow linked to the fact they were car shopping? Did both Fred and Maura know that Maura was planning a trip, and that she would need a car superior to her Saturn to make it? And when they didn’t buy a car, did Fred lend her his for the journey? Of course, the first crash scuppered that plan.

Fred came to visit on the Saturday, which would have been his very first opportunity after the upsetting phone call Maura took/made on the Thursday, which she suggested involved her sister. I wonder if that phone call was the first time Maura divulged something which prompted her father to make the journey that weekend?

 

[BillNH]

I touched on something earlier and wanted to expand on it, if possible.

Why was Maura in possession of her Father’s car at the time of her first accident?

Fred comes to Maura’s university with the intention of buying a new car with her (supposedly). He stays the night in a local hotel, lending Maura his car – despite the fact that he had to drive back home the next day.

Why? To me, this seems very strange. Apparently Maura wasn’t planning to drive anywhere – she was simply attending a party on campus that night. Why didn’t Fred just drop her off at Uni and keep the car himself? Unless the car was lent for another purpose, like an upcoming journey.

Is this somehow linked to the fact they were car shopping? Did both Fred and Maura know that Maura was planning a trip, and that she would need a car superior to her Saturn to make it? And when they didn’t buy a car, did Fred lend her his for the journey? Of course, the first crash scuppered that plan.

Fred came to visit on the Saturday, which would have been his very first opportunity after the upsetting phone call Maura took/made on the Thursday, which she suggested involved her sister. I wonder if that phone call was the first time Maura divulged something which prompted her father to make the journey that weekend?

These same questions have been asked and speculated on for many years. Only 2 people for sure know the answer. Neither is answering, likely never will unless Maura appears to tell her story or Fred decides to fess up.