NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[leilarose68]

I do not see a history of mental issues at all. She stole some stuff at WP, and she stole a credit card. We do not know if she had an eating disorder, and she may have been in he beginning stages of a drinking problem. Overall nothing about Maura's life screams of a person with a bunch of serious problems.

I think that perhaps the stealing could be seen from a different POV. I think that Maura could not express her own wants and needs to her family. The pressure to succeed was too great. Why would someone like Maura steal makeup and order pizza on a stolen CC? My own theory is that she did it so that she could get kicked out of WP, and was hoping for the same at Amherst.

TBH as someone who is all too familiar with eating disorders, I would be surprised if she didn't have one. She is incredibly thin (in a gaunt, bony way) in the photos I see with a puffy bulimia face (bulimia often puffs out your cheeks because it irritates the glands). I have seen way too many perfectionistic runners with eating disorders. She was incredibly secretive (most with eating disorders are) and would steal credit cards to buy whole pizzas at night (bulimia). As I mentioned before, there is actually a strong link between eating disorders and stealing... it all has to do with getting a rush out of being in control. The pattern is way too clear to me. Her grades were slipping. Bursts out crying at her job. Kicked out of a school. Flunking out of another. Overbearing father. Losing control. Seems pretty clear to me that she suffered from mental health issues. She looks sad behind the eyes.

 

[carpanthers]

Yeah, I guess I just have a hard time believing that someone who had such a history of mental health issues and was totally failing in most areas of her life could orchestrate something like that. I think the easiest answer is the best, most believable one in this case but I guess that's just me.

I don't know that we can assume Maura to have a history of mental health issues. She may have had an eating disorder, but I'm not sure if anything outside of rumors confirms this.

Even if she did have mental health issues, not all mental health issues influence your ability to orchestrate and plan. I don't know of any evidence that suggests she wasn't thinking clearly. She actually executes several purposeful and deliberate actions.

Just because she may have orchestrated something doesn't mean she succeeded, either. What if she planned to escape to New Hampshire (maybe just temporarily, until she could find out exactly how much trouble she was in)? If she didn't plan to crash the car, then anything is possible.

She could have walked away from this crash and died of exposure, or killed herself, or been kidnapped and murdered or escaped to another place. What happened after the crash does not preclude Maura from having a different plan before the crash.

 

[leilarose68]

I don't know that we can assume Maura to have a history of mental health issues. She may have had an eating disorder, but I'm not sure if anything outside of rumors confirms this.

Even if she did have mental health issues, not all mental health issues influence your ability to orchestrate and plan. I don't know of any evidence that suggests she wasn't thinking clearly. She actually executes several purposeful and deliberate actions.

Just because she may have orchestrated something doesn't mean she succeeded, either. What if she planned to escape to New Hampshire (maybe just temporarily, until she could find out exactly how much trouble she was in)? If she didn't plan to crash the car, then anything is possible.

She could have walked away from this crash and died of exposure, or killed herself, or been kidnapped and murdered or escaped to another place. What happened after the crash does not preclude Maura from having a different plan before the crash.

Well obviously she was incredibly secretive so there's no direct confirmation of anything. People familiar with disorders and lapses in emotional health will recognize the patterns I think.

Sure. There are a lot of 'what ifs.' Maura was clearly incredibly unwell in my eyes and I still think suicide or haphazard somewhat accidental death in the forest is the most likely scenario here.

 

[carpanthers]

Well obviously she was incredibly secretive so there's no direct confirmation of anything. People familiar with disorders and lapses in emotional health will recognize the patterns I think.

Sure. There are a lot of 'what ifs.' Maura was clearly incredibly unwell in my eyes and I still think suicide or haphazard somewhat accidental death in the forest is the most likely scenario here.

What do you make of the seeming lack of footprints in the woods around the crash site? Do you think there were footprints that the police didn't tell us about? Do you think there were footprints that the police missed?

If there weren't footprints, do you think she walked along the road for a significant distance before she entered the forest?

 

[leilarose68]

What do you make of the seeming lack of footprints in the woods around the crash site? Do you think there were footprints that the police didn't tell us about? Do you think there were footprints that the police missed?

If there weren't footprints, do you think she walked along the road for a significant distance before she entered the forest?

Yeah, I think any of that is possible.

 

[leilarose68]

Guys, just curious, what % convinced are you in your theory?

I was reading a reddit discussion with James Renner and he said that he was 90% certain Maura is alive somewhere. Which is... kind of absurd to me. What do you make of this and what would you put your certainty at?

 

[carpanthers]

Guys, just curious, what % convinced are you in your theory?

I was reading a reddit discussion with James Renner and he said that he was 90% certain Maura is alive somewhere. What do you make of this and what would you put your certainty at?

I wouldn't put it at 90% unless there was additional information of which I was not yet aware (there might be).

I don't think that planning to live necessarily means she did live, either.

I would be very uncomfortable assigning a high level of probability to a particular theory, at least at this point.

I wonder about Fred's lies. They are material lies, and I wonder about his motives for telling them.

 

[Jmoose]

You're right, it's not specifically about suicide, but here's an excerpt from the official Amazon.com review of the book. Guess we looked at different reviews. It would be disingenuous to say that the book is your average book on mountains... clearly it does regale the deaths of hikers. I don't think you can read this summary and not consider it more deeply in the context of Maura's troubles and how she was heading to the mountains + in what light she herself considered them. JUst from reading this excerpt I can completely see how a person might romanticize death in the mountains.



Underlying Not Without Peril is the not-so-subtle message that the Presidential Range, topping out at just over 6,000 feet, is as uncompromising as any other mountain range. After all, these mountains--named for Washington, Lincoln, Madison--are home to some of the most vicious weather recorded on the planet. Howe makes no judgment about those whose misfortunes he chronicles; there are tender moments that manage to stay faithful to a crusty Yankee sensibility, as in the tale of Lizzie Bourne, who died in a snowstorm while huddled in a makeshift lean-to. Howe quotes her uncle George: "She was dead--had uttered no complaint, expressed no regret or fear, but passed silently away." Such sober tales, scrupulously researched, tell the history of a mountain range and its climbers, some of whom are immortalized for their ill-fated treks. It's a gritty read, a touch morbid, but more than compensated for by sharp writing and compelling drama.

I have this book myself, and while it doesn't deal specifically with suicidal people, a case could be made, I suppose, that Maura'd read it, and knew what it meant to be outside there, unprepared. Personally, I do not believe she's out there living below the radar, but still using her own social security number, as someone earlier today proposed as a possibility-wouldn't the authorities have checked that, as they frequently do for missing people?

 

[Jmoose]

I own a book called "Death in Big Bend" and I like to hike in Big Bend. The book to me is all about how to stay alive. The book is a cautionary tale. It describes all the things that people did wrong in a hostile environment. Not Without Peril is in that same vein.

Yes, Not Without Peril is def. a cautionary tale

 

[carpanthers]

I agree that Maura would know what it meant to be in the wilderness, unprepared. I think it is unlikely that she would choose this death for herself (I am not saying it is impossible or unlikely that she died of exposure, just that I do not think she would have willfully chosen this). I think she would know that victims of hypothermia are often found naked, and I wonder how this would have impacted her thinking on this matter.

I don't tend to believe that she is alive either, although I wouldn't rule it out. But this doesn't mean that she didn't plan to live, and then die. What if she got into a passing car, planning to escape, and then was murdered? What if she walked up the road, planning to escape, and was hit by a motorist? What if she planned to escape, but died of exposure before she could reach a destination?

I just don't think that her actions reflect suicide more than they reflect escape.

 

[Jmoose]

I don't see enough indication that her mind was in an optimistic mindset versus the downward spiral she seemed to be on in other aspects of her life.

edit: Generally when a troubled person is drinking, it doesn't elevate them into a celebratory place. Just my 2 cents. of course, it's possible she was in a celebratory mood but I don't see any evidence that she had turned herself around 180 degrees

I would agree with this, but edit it to say "when a troubled person is drinking alone.

 

[Jmoose]

We don't know how big the coke bottle was. Many people have suggested that a 20 oz. bottle would be easier to drink from while driving, and I agree with this statement. In the pictures of the car that were taken years after the crash, a crumpled 20 oz. (could be 16 oz. I guess, but I think it is 20 oz.) diet coke bottle is visible through the windshield. Of course, we don't know that this is the bottle.

But if it were a 20 oz. bottle, and we know that Sgt. Smith found liquid still in the bottle, and we know that some of the liquid spilled on the driver's side door and ceiling, this would mean that Maura drank somewhere between 0 and 20 oz. of a liquid of unknown alcoholic content.

Butch Atwood told reporters that Maura did not appear intoxicated.

I'm not saying she wasn't drunk, but I think it is just as likely that she was not.

I wonder if it's possible that, while according to Atwood, she didn't appear intoxicated, but had consumed a lot of alcohol. In my experience, I've known people who drink a lot on a regular basis, and do not appear drunk, but who would likely blow 3 or 4 times the legal limit for driving.

 

[Jmoose]

I think she was on a "three beer buzz". She was not very drunk, but she was not also perfectly sober. I think she had somewhere between two and four glasses of wine. In that situation, a person having a casual encounter with you might not be able to tell.

I wouldn't be able to drive if i'd had the equivalent of betw 2 and 4 glasses of wine-but I don't drink any alcohol most days, and I think Maura drank much more than I do (not being critical-it is very common for college-aged people to do so)

 

[Jmoose]

I do not see a history of mental issues at all. She stole some stuff at WP, and she stole a credit card. We do not know if she had an eating disorder, and she may have been in he beginning stages of a drinking problem. Overall nothing about Maura's life screams of a person with a bunch of serious problems.

I think that perhaps the stealing could be seen from a different POV. I think that Maura could not express her own wants and needs to her family. The pressure to succeed was too great. Why would someone like Maura steal makeup and order pizza on a stolen CC? My own theory is that she did it so that she could get kicked out of WP, and was hoping for the same at Amherst.

Doesn't getting kicked out of not one, but two colleges that her parents were likely paying for, create its own kind of pressure? I'm not convinced that she really was trying to get caught stealing so she could get kicked out. I'd venture a guess that she did not want to get caught, but that it was part of her nature to steal. I think that if she had an eating disorder ( we don't know, but maybe...), and a drinking problem, and a stealing penchant, it isn't much of a leap to get to the point of thinking that she had some kind of mental distress or disorder, too

 

[scoops]

The book is focused on suicide in the wilderness? This is news to me. From the Editorial Reviews on Amazon:

"First published 14 years ago, Not Without Peril has quickly risen amongst the ranks of outdoor books and is clearly deserving the title of an outdoor classic. Combining painstaking historical research with his own intimate knowledge of New Hampshire’s White Mountains, Nicholas Howe recounts the struggles, deaths, and near escapes of hikers on Mount Washington. Howe gives us more than just facts of each accident, but he goes deeper, placing the accidents in the historical context of the times, including the period’s clothing and equipment, and providing a more complete understanding of the background and personalities of the people involved. (2014 National Outdoor Book Award Judges)"

Do you have any reason to believe the book focuses on suicide?

Wow, Talk about minimalizing.

Maura didn't go missing in the "Wilderness," in the random woods on the way to grandma's house.

Maura went missing in the very place she was planning her honeymoon in (the White Mountains).

I would say that, there is some teeny weeny bit of significance to that, but maybe that is just me.

Afterall, it makes much more sense that Maura went on the lamb and off the grid, because the FBI were hot on her trail over some fraudulent pizza orders (give me a break!)

And no, "Not Without Peril" is not about suicide, but rather the book is about just how dangerous and underestimated the White Mountains are and even the most skilled hikers could very easily meet their demise ... And I don't think it is too much of a stretch to come to the conclusion that Maura (an avid hiker enthusiast) may not have had some sort of itch to try and tempt her own fate in the same place that so many before her have tried and failed.

I can pull up many reviews of the book where the readers (and fellow hikers) talk about it in almost a romanticizing way.

But nah, it was just a book about mountains and Maura just happened to end up going missing in the very same spot.

Even though 2 and 2 usually equals 4, I guess in this instance it equals something else, because surely Maura was all about starting a new life in Canada.

 

[scoops]

Maura and her relation to the White Mountains:

Maura was planning her honeymoon with Billy in the White Mountains, set for Sept of 2005

Maura and Billy would take off during weekends and go to the White Mountains and hike

Maura and her father would also use weekend visits to go to the White Mountains

In October of 2003 (just four months before Maura went missing) her and her father tackled hiking adventures in three different locations in what was a marathon four day stretch of tackling 4,000 footers. Those locations were The White Mountains, The Berkshires area and near Stowe Vermont. (where have we heard those locations before) Oh yeah, the same three places, Maura had inquired about, prior to running away.

Shucks, golly, that almost seems like one of them there clues or something. Nah, couldn't be ...

 

[Fireweed]

It sounds like Maura then associated the White Mountains with past and future happy moments. I think that the White Mountains certainly had a significance for her, but I am not yet convinced that she went there to kill herself. If anything I lean more towards her going to a place she associated with happiness and relaxation.

 

[Fireweed]

Afterall, it makes much more sense that Maura went on the lamb and off the grid, because the FBI were hot on her trail over some fraudulent pizza orders (give me a break!)

Scoops, if you ever have the time then I invite you to read some of my posts regarding Maura going off the grid (many of them are just from today). I do not believe with certainty that is what happened, but my reasoning (and many others) may surprise you. You would see that it has little to do with anything you just wrote. I fear that you dismiss a theory because you have oversimplified it and made it sound ridiculous as a result. Again, I strongly implore you to both read and comprehend some of the stuff here about this theory.

 

[scoops]

It sounds like Maura then associated the White Mountains with past and future happy moments. I think that the White Mountains certainly had a significance for her, but I am not yet convinced that she went there to kill herself. If anything I lean more towards her going to a place she associated with happiness and relaxation.

And to add to this:

Maura wasn't just some recreational hiker (like some have tried to portray her -- and I'm not talking about you Fireweed, just posters from the past who have argued against the suicide theory)

Maura was going to the White Mountains in particular since she was in diapers.


She referred to the white mountains as the greatest place on earth and don't forget her own words when she was 16 years old as she gushed about a particular white mountains camp site.


Hi there,

My name is Maura Murray from Hanson MA and I've been going to
Jigger Johnson's campground, which is clearly the best, and hiking in
the White Mountains ever since I was too young to remember. I would
like to know if anyone out there has ever climbed Mt. Tripyramid (the
trail starts at Sabaday Falls) because I had quite an experience. I
also want to help out at the huts during the summer or manage trails
if there are any available jobs that someone knows about. Does anybody
have any bear or moose stories to tell because I would love to hear
them. Great website-bye

 

[Fireweed]

I agree that the White Mountains were something that Maura was emotionally bonded to. I have never doubted that. I simply cannot say that that fact proves that she was there to commit suicide. If anything, it seems like the White Mountains were a place she associated with joy and feelings of contentment. If I had to choose, then I would choose that Maura was there is a desperate effort to regain some of those feelings.

I still cannot see where suicide makes more sense over simply going up there in the hope that happiness might be "restored" by being in the White Mountains.