NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[scoops]

Scoops, if you ever have the time then I invite you to read some of my posts regarding Maura going off the grid (many of them are just from today). I do not believe with certainty that is what happened, but my reasoning (and many others) may surprise you. You would see that it has little to do with anything you just wrote. I fear that you dismiss a theory because you have oversimplified it and made it sound ridiculous as a result. Again, I strongly implore you to both read and comprehend some of the stuff here about this theory.

I sincerely have no problem whatsoever with other theories concerning Maura's fate.

I really do enjoy talking about possible things that could've happened to Maura because frankly, with no body, no one really fully knows.

But again as I have stated before, I just don't like ignoring actual details and disregarding them to focus on another theory.

I have always spoken out against the abduction theory (Not because I think it isn't possible) but because I don't believe that theory came about in a honest way.

Maura running away to a new life. that is a theory and it is possible, but where does that fit with any of the details of the case?

I don't see evidence that Maura hated her sisters. She talked to her older sister every day.

I don't care about talking about different possibilities (other than suicide) but when discussing this case, I would like to work off of the details of the case and let that lead me into what happened to Maura. Not the other way around, working off a random theory and then inventing details to possibly link them to Maura's situation.

I don't think it's very productive to start focusing on theories that have no relation to details concerning this case.

 

[Fireweed]

Maura running away to a new life. that is a theory and it is possible, but where does that fit with any of the details of the case?

I don't see evidence that Maura hated her sisters. She talked to her older sister every day.

It is because of statements like this that I strongly implore you to read the previous pages on this thread. I do not think that Maura would have had to have hated her sisters in order to disappear to start a new life.

 

[carpanthers]

I sincerely have no problem whatsoever with other theories concerning Maura's fate.

I really do enjoy talking about possible things that could've happened to Maura because frankly, with no body, no one really fully knows.

But again as I have stated before, I just don't like ignoring actual details and disregarding them to focus on another theory.

I have always spoken out against the abduction theory (Not because I think it isn't possible) but because I don't believe that theory came about in a honest way.

Maura running away to a new life. that is a theory and it is possible, but where does that fit with any of the details of the case?

I don't see evidence that Maura hated her sisters. She talked to her older sister every day.

I don't care about talking about different possibilities (other than suicide) but when discussing this case, I would like to work off of the details of the case and let that lead me into what happened to Maura. Not the other way around, working off a random theory and then inventing details to possibly link them to Maura's situation.

I don't think it's very productive to start focusing on theories that have no relation to details concerning this case.

Ignoring details is not the same thing as questioning details.

How the abduction theory developed has no bearing on the likelihood of this possibility.

 

[carpanthers]

Wow, Talk about minimalizing.

Maura didn't go missing in the "Wilderness," in the random woods on the way to grandma's house.

Maura went missing in the very place she was planning her honeymoon in (the White Mountains).

I would say that, there is some teeny weeny bit of significance to that, but maybe that is just me.

Afterall, it makes much more sense that Maura went on the lamb and off the grid, because the FBI were hot on her trail over some fraudulent pizza orders (give me a break!)

And no, "Not Without Peril" is not about suicide, but rather the book is about just how dangerous and underestimated the White Mountains are and even the most skilled hikers could very easily meet their demise ... And I don't think it is too much of a stretch to come to the conclusion that Maura (an avid hiker enthusiast) may not have had some sort of itch to try and tempt her own fate in the same place that so many before her have tried and failed.

I can pull up many reviews of the book where the readers (and fellow hikers) talk about it in almost a romanticizing way.

But nah, it was just a book about mountains and Maura just happened to end up going missing in the very same spot.

Even though 2 and 2 usually equals 4, I guess in this instance it equals something else, because surely Maura was all about starting a new life in Canada.

I agree with you that it is no coincidence that Maura decided to go to the White Mountains. She liked that place, she intended to have her honeymoon there. The fact that she went to the place she loved most in no way suggests suicide over other possibilities.

Who said the FBI was on her trail? I specifically said that I thought Patrolman Pinkham may have been suspicious of her potential involvement in other thefts when he caught her lying about where she obtained the numbers, and I think he was suspicious when Maura told him that the other numbers were phone numbers.

Isn't it possible that people romanticize this book because they are proud that they have survived the White Mountains, and they think that the White Mountains should be considered as dangerous as other mountain ranges?

 

[Fireweed]

I do not think that a single person here has suggested that the FBI were involved in Maura until after her disappearance. I think that arguing against something like that is just "strawmanning" which to me screams of a fear of having a real dialog about it.

Though I certainly agree that a person might want to commit suicide in a place where they feel a strong emotional attachment, I can see it as just as likely that Maura was there to renew and refresh herself.

I have always spoken out against the abduction theory (Not because I think it isn't possible) but because I don't believe that theory came about in a honest way.

Don't worry, I am treading extremely lightly here, but I must agree with Carpanthers on this one: how does the origin of the abduction theory bear on its present likelihood? I could see that it might if there was a specific suspect we were talking about, but as far as I know, there is none. Could you explain what you mean? I am totally serious here; I really do not know what you are talking about. I am curious because I have not heard of this before. From what I know, the abduction theory developed because a young woman disappeared without a trace, and we know that when that happens, that abduction is a strong possibility.

 

[scoops]

I agree with you that it is no coincidence that Maura decided to go to the White Mountains. She liked that place, she intended to have her honeymoon there. The fact that she went to the place she loved most in no way suggests suicide over other possibilities.
Who said the FBI was on her trail? I specifically said that I thought Patrolman Pinkham may have been suspicious of her potential involvement in other thefts when he caught her lying about where she obtained the numbers, and I think he was suspicious when Maura told him that the other numbers were phone numbers.

Isn't it possible that people romanticize this book because they are proud that they have survived the White Mountains, and they think that the White Mountains should be considered as dangerous as other mountain ranges?

Sure it's possible.

But it's also possible that Maura really liked that book because she was an adventurer herself, and reading about all the creative ways these hikers in their last minutes on earth went about trying to survive, may have inspired Maura.

Maybe Maura felt like it was her time to take that challenge. Everything else in her life wasn't exactly worth caring about anymore. Maybe Maura just wanted to spend her last seconds on earth in her favorite spot in the world.

It's possible the note Maura left on top of her packed up boxes stacked on her bed was a shot at her boyfriend.

Maybe her boyfriend was giving her grief about some of her issues and maybe she was leaving that note there to remind him and others who may have been hard on her that she wasn't the only one with issues.

I can work with that kind of stuff, because the details of the case line up with them.

But when you introduce a theory because statistics show blah blah blah, I just don't believe in that process.

You should let your details lead you to a theory. Not a theory leading you to create details to make that theory work.

When you use the Maura ran away to Canada theory (as an example and I know that is not your theory, but I am using it as as example) you are almost solely working in a backwards manner.

there is no evidence that Maura had any link to Canada, but because Canada is somewhat close to New Hampshire and people have ran off to other countries before to start a new life, you come up with this theory and now you have to try and invent details that would tie Maura into this theory and I just don't believe that is how cases are solved.

I think you throw out all pre-conceived theories and you just take the details.

You analyze all those details, compare them with what people have stated, compare them for accuracy and truth and you let those details tell the story which then turns into a theory.

that is how I like to work.

The abduction theory didn't come about by looking at the details of this case first.
The running away theory to start a new life (while creative) it did not come from details that are known about this specific case.

I work from details first, not theories first. And until someone can convince me that I am either completely wrong about the details of the case, then I continue believing that they are leading me to a suicide theory.

 

[scoops]

I do not think that a single person here has suggested that the FBI were involved in Maura until after her disappearance. I think that arguing against something like that is just "strawmanning" which to me screams of a fear of having a real dialog about it.

Though I certainly agree that a person might want to commit suicide in a place where they feel a strong emotional attachment, I can see it as just as likely that Maura was there to renew and refresh herself.



Don't worry, I am treading extremely lightly here, but I must agree with Carpanthers on this one: how does the origin of the abduction theory bear on its present likelihood? I could see that it might if there was a specific suspect we were talking about, but as far as I know, there is none. Could you explain what you mean? I am totally serious here; I really do not know what you are talking about. I am curious because I have not heard of this before. From what I know, the abduction theory developed because a young woman disappeared without a trace, and we know that when that happens, that abduction is a strong possibility.

Fred introduced the abduction theory and all details support that.

He didn't come up with it, because they found evidence of a struggle or they found blood near Maura's car or a witness came forward to say he saw someone snatch Maura into his vehicle.

IMO, he came up with that theory to feed the media and add teeth to his daughter's missing investigation.

This theory was manufactured. the subsequent searches that you heard about (the rusty knife, blood on the carpet in the a-framed house, women's panties found in a ditch) those were all "investigations" done with no police help, Those were Fred Murray hired investigator investigations that were spoon-fed to the media.

You are absolutely right that a girl went missing and abductions do happen.

But again, in this case, those two points (a girl went missing and abductions do happen) stay on the realm of hypotheticals and statistic probabilities.

What is wrong with actually focusing on the known details of this case as opposed to focusing on statistics?

You may say that the details of this case may not be reliable.

But I would say that they are reliable enough that after many many years, no one has been able to convince me that I have interpreted the details in error.

 

[Lolacat]

What would make someone want to live the difficult way Off the Grid when she can just tell her family she's having nothing more to do with them and take off and this would make it so much easier? My mother has a crazy cousin who nobody has talked to for 20 years because he wants nothing to do with his family but it's not like he's missing. If she's off the grid I think it's due to something much bigger than her relationship with family.

Wouldnt this all depend on the particular family involved? A cousin is very different to your own child. Some families may well allow a member to physically and emotionally distance themselves from the rest and not bat an eyelid, they'd leave them be. Other families simply wouldnt allow this to happen- they'd pester and nag and wouldnt let it rest until the member came back to the fold. I cannot ever imagine Fred being *ok* with Maura simply leaving and never being in touch ever again. I just dont think he'd allow it, we all know he is a control freak and even Maura's siblings have said how hard he pushed them. I cant see Fred go from travelling up to see Maura at college every other weekend to just letting her drop ALL family contact. The man is stubborn- he's like a terrier- we've seen that with his dealings with the police. I dont know if Maura ran away or not, but I dont buy that one of her viable options was to simply tell her family she didnt want to be in touch with them ever again. I just dont think they would have allowed that to happen. I think they would have hounded her until she came back.

 

[Fireweed]

@scoops. 1. even had Fred not brought up the abduction theory, it would still be a theory here. A young woman went missing without a trace. No matter what Fred had said, an enterprising person here could have brought up the theory. Just because Fred mentioned it as part of what you consider a lie, does not make it an invalid theory. Your logic there is just bizarre.

2. A lot of people here discuss the theory that Maura may still be alive, and though some people bring up Canada that is certainly not the theory. Just because Maura had no ties to Canada, does not mean that she is not still alive. What that means is that she had no ties to Canada.

 

[carpanthers]

Fred introduced the abduction theory and all details support that.

He didn't come up with it, because they found evidence of a struggle or they found blood near Maura's car or a witness came forward to say he saw someone snatch Maura into his vehicle.

IMO, he came up with that theory to feed the media and add teeth to his daughter's missing investigation.

This theory was manufactured. the subsequent searches that you heard about (the rusty knife, blood on the carpet in the a-framed house, women's panties found in a ditch) those were all "investigations" done with no police help, Those were Fred Murray hired investigator investigations that were spoon-fed to the media.

You are absolutely right that a girl went missing and abductions do happen.

But again, in this case, those two points (a girl went missing and abductions do happen) stay on the realm of hypotheticals and statistic probabilities.

What is wrong with actually focusing on the known details of this case as opposed to focusing on statistics?

You may say that the details of this case may not be reliable.

But I would say that they are reliable enough that after many many years, no one has been able to convince me that I have interpreted the details in error.

What about the lie detector tests? What about the state police searching Rick Forcier's trailer on the side of the highway? These weren't the actions of Fred Murray, right?

A known detail of this case is that Fred Murray lied to police. Why did he do this? Why did he lie about material facts?

 

[leilarose68]

@scoops. 1. even had Fred not brought up the abduction theory, it would still be a theory here. A young woman went missing without a trace. No matter what Fred had said, an enterprising person here could have brought up the theory. Just because Fred mentioned it as part of what you consider a lie, does not make it an invalid theory. Your logic there is just bizarre.

2. A lot of people here discuss the theory that Maura may still be alive, and though some people bring up Canada that is certainly not the theory. Just because Maura had no ties to Canada, does not mean that she is not still alive. What that means is that she had no ties to Canada.

I think it's also good to consider that a book and a place can have multiple meanings for people... yes, Maura may associate it with happy times, but that's why it would almost be a romantic place to die... an idyllic, idealized death if you will. People who are suicidal can think of death in happy terms, because it is a release from their suffering. That would not be at odds with her idealized view of the mountains. There are often many facets and layers to people's feelings about places that are important to them

 

[leilarose68]

What about the lie detector tests? What about the state police searching Rick Forcier's trailer on the side of the highway? These weren't the actions of Fred Murray, right?

A known detail of this case is that Fred Murray lied to police. Why did he do this? Why did he lie about material facts?

fred seems like a really unhinged person so it's so hard to tell if the weird, erratic things he's done are relevant to the case or it's just him being a weirdo

 

[syntaxkid]

To the people wondering about the dorm room and the credit card...I was at Umass from 2000-2004...You could order food and have it delivered to your friends' place...For example, if I was hanging out in my friends' place on a different floor or different room, but I was paying....I'd give my credit card info and just tell them what dorm and what room to deliver it to...I think Maura probably did find the receipt in the trash which had the dorm room on it and assumed it was that person's card...when the police went to the room and the girl living there "coincidentally" had a friend who had reported suspicious items on a card, it's because they were actually friends and probably had ordered food from that room.

Pinnochios made calzones...Domino's did deliver 24 inch pizzas and very late at night....Rao's was never opened past 12 and Roa's never delivered coffee, it was a popular study spot/cafe that was open a little later than the other places

 

[syntaxkid]

I was a premed at the time but my college girlfriend was in her Nursing Class....they were a very tight knit bunch and I can tell you that many of the nursing students didn't even realize she was in their class, thats how low she kept her profile.....The whole thing is very sad....I don't know the particulars about her footprints, etc and how they searched the scene....but I can tell you that if you were improperly dressed, intoxicated with alcohol, and out in the cold up there, it wouldn't take long to die of hypothermia.....it wouldn't take long for animals to come to the scene either......did LE recover any clothing? or her cell phone? I imagine those things would not be carried away by animals....any items made of plastic and metal should still be around as plastic takes like 10 the millionth years to degrade

 

[Fireweed]

I was a premed at the time but my college girlfriend was in her Nursing Class....they were a very tight knit bunch and I can tell you that many of the nursing students didn't even realize she was in their class, thats how low she kept her profile.....The whole thing is very sad....I don't know the particulars about her footprints, etc and how they searched the scene....but I can tell you that if you were improperly dressed, intoxicated with alcohol, and out in the cold up there, it wouldn't take long to die of hypothermia.....it wouldn't take long for animals to come to the scene either......did LE recover any clothing? or her cell phone? I imagine those things would not be carried away by animals....any items made of plastic and metal should still be around as plastic takes like 10 the millionth years to degrade

Will you check in here regularly? I think it is great to be able to talk to someone who has a line to Maura's life. Did your GF start as a freshman at Umass? Did she think that Maura kept a low profile because maybe as a transfer student she just simply was not as close as the other students in the program?

 

[syntaxkid]

One last thing...Canada has a very stringent immigration system, especially post 9/11...you can enter Canada with your US passport, but you couldn't go off the grid...you would need a work permit to work, and there would have been a record of her passing the border.....even if she made her way to Vermont where there once was an un-attended border town, it would be complete wilderness on the other side.....she would not have survived that in the winter unless she had made the crossing before and was seriously prepared with camping/survival gear.

 

[syntaxkid]

I can check in, especially if you guys need Umass info.....From my understanding, it was not because she was merely a transfer.....it was because she was never at their post exam parties, and no one seemed to know she was there until she was gone

 

[Fireweed]

I do not think that the Canada thing is that great of a theory. I think that if Maura did go off and start a new life, that she did so in the U.S.

But, there most certainly are illegal immigrants living in Canada, so it is not an impossible task.

 

[Fireweed]

I can check in, especially if you guys need Umass info.....From my understanding, it was not because she was merely a transfer.....it was because she was never at their post exam parties, and no one seemed to know she was there until she was gone

Yes the general consensus is that Maura was a very private person. She may have not felt comfortable opening up to people. But my own personal theory is that Maura did not want to be a nurse and she did not want to be in the nursing program. She did those things so that her family would forgive her after getting kicked out of WP.

 

[syntaxkid]

It's not impossible no, you could work under the table especially in a place like toronto, or anywhere in ontario for that matter.....but I don't believe she would have been able to make it there in the first place, not on that night....not without a record of crossing or freezing to death.....there is only one crossing in that region and that is Vermont, not NH......did she have any contacts in Canada? or spend time in Canada in the past????