NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 3

[docwho3]

Ok, the "coverup" that I referred to was that darn sarcasm of mine.
I would like to point out that I have never said that any one individual is responsible for anything. Though I do find questions regarding actions. As far as anything I have said regarding the police, I recant. While I find conflicting statements made, I do not believe that any of them had anything to do with her disappearance, though I do think things have been done differently. Hindsight is 20/20, though I do think at some point that one should fix his earlier mistakes.
Just please understand that I will state facts from the point of view of those closest to her, and point out inconsistencies made by the very people who you are basing your evidence on.
That being said, let's drop the gloves, exit the ring, and get back to what is important. I fear that this has gone on too long and is hindering the outcome.

Let me try one last time: I too don't have any desire to agrue with you just for the sake of argument and I hope you feel the same. I think part of the problem was that when I wanted to also reach out to connect in freindship I was at the same time responding to points made about the case and I think that muddled things a bit.

First, I am not against looking into possibilities that could end in the conclusion of a dead Maura. However, I do think that one might overlook a possible line of investigation leading to the perp if you overlook that she might have been running away and had a helper.

To help support your ideas I previously have posted some things I think bear looking into. If I only wanted my own ideas looked at I would never have done that for you. I loose nothing by supporting your looking into the possibility of Maura having been the victem of foul play. The truth is the truth so if she was the victem of foul play it will come out in time and if she is alive somewhere there is always the hope that someday a healing will take place between Maura and her family.

However I reserve the right to post a disagreement about a case point. Just know that when I do so I am not your mortal enemy and I desire no hostility between us.

Instead of trying to prove what she was or wasn't capable of, maybe we need to be looking for any possible combo of facts that could lead to her having been a victem of foul play. It does not hurt to look for such evidence. If evidence isn't there to find we won't find it, but if it is then maybe it will be found. I am already familiar with the case discussion on the Mauramurray.com thread up to & including page 98 & will soon read more.

If I think of anything not already discussed either there or here, that I think might interest you I will certainly post it.

 

[armywife210]

That being said Docwho, I declare a truce...
I hope cyberlaw is down with that too.
I hope and pray that she is alive and well, we all do.
I will defend what I know is true to be in Mauras character though as without knowing her habits we really have no hope in finding truth. Same with the way WP works, I also know cadets who are now officers that served on the honor board during that time so I am privy to some information in that light.

 

[petra]

That being said Docwho, I declare a truce...
I hope cyberlaw is down with that too.
I hope and pray that she is alive and well, we all do.
I will defend what I know is true to be in Mauras character though as without knowing her habits we really have no hope in finding truth. Same with the way WP works, I also know cadets who are now officers that served on the honor board during that time so I am privy to some information in that light.

After reading a post by Peabody last week asking for people to continue posting on Maura's board, I spent hours reading all the threads and posts. I did this in good faith, feeling that input was truly wanted and also to keep Maura@s case in the forefront. My first post on this board was yesterday.

I found most of the input very helpful towards different ways of looking at this scenario. I appreciated the time and thought many posters gave to this case.

As a parent of a 20 yr old student at unni in Boston, and an 18 yr old son in boarding school in Sweden... I was interested in how this could come about.

I have to say, I am very leery of posting anything here for fear of being shot down or tricked by other posters with an invested interest or agendas.

It is so sad because the focus should be Maura...

I have a hard time seeing that true opinion and input is wanted on this or any of other Maura's threads. That is probably why posters shy away.

 

[docwho3]

. . .Docwho...well said. I too believe Maura has decided to voluntarily disappear from the facts that I've read. . . .

Please forgive my not stopping sooner to say Thank You for the kind words. I appreciate your comments.

 

[petra]

AW..just have to say i feel quite betrayed.
i am very disappointed in how you first presented your self.
i must say i am a sucker and will certainly be more aware in the future.
......must say i forgot about that honor system and how that works.

very impressed by thoughts and analysis by doc, katherine, chez and several other posters...i have learned alot about human nature, once again and as a parent and person it only reinforces my believe in staying open minded to all possibilities of behavior.

thank you.

May Maura's family and friends get the answers they seek. I truly wish them the best.

 

[michelle]

I have watched a few things on tv about maura but i really dont know much about the case. I need to read the whole threads, i am too lazy right now to do it though. This case is quite fascinating, i must say though. My first thought when i heard about this was that maybe someone impersonating a cop took her, these things happen alot. Its scary. I wish she would be safe somewhere i feel horrible for her poor father and family.

 

[hydemi]

You have been able to help us on this site with posts based on personal knowledge and connection to the family, which I have always accepted.

Yesterday you said that RC Stevens the PI originally hired by the Murrays in 2004 as well as the current PI team "determined" that foul play was involved or that foul play was the "most likely" cause of Maura' disappearance.

Are you holding something back which can be discussed?

I have never questioned the statements of belief by the family & Maura's friends after about a week of searching for her had passed two years ago that her being missing and not having contacted them since Feb. 9 (or 2/11 if she was the caller to Lt Rausch) were in and of themselves strong indications if not evidence that Maura had been harmed or abducted.

And I totally respect Lt Rausch for saying that he can understand why Maura might have chosen to break up with him but not why she would break off all contact or relations with her family.

But your statements about the PI team and RC Stevens seem to hint at some deeper knowledge of facts or suspects than the rest of us have access to.

 

[CyberLaw]

You know Doc, I am still in "awe" of your posts. I especially liked when you said you were not "married" to a particular idea, considering what evidence may prevail.

Of course I am open to new evidence in this case that may "sway" my opinion also, but none yet has been forthcoming.

I am awaiting further developments in this case.....hopefully to a positive resolution.

ArmyWife: Truce? Why don't we just agree to disagree......to be reasonable. After all we are "neighbours".........

When I read this, Maura came to mind for some reason. For those of you who may think that I have an "alt.motive", for the post , I was reseaching information regarding "different personalities", "control and power" "family members"

From: http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Personality_Disorders/Site/Transcripts/narcissism.htm

I allowed my father much control over my life. I'm thirty-eight now and realize his narcissism. How do I limit his control without disowning him? Is it too late?

Dr. Vaknin: It is never too late to set oneself free. But liberty always has a price. Sometimes you can make peace with your oppressors, sometimes you can't, and YOU have to let go. It is a tango - you are BOTH engaged in this macabre dance. Stop the music. Set boundaries. Declare independence. Legislate. Fight for your rights. And if he persists, say goodbye.

If the "opressor" does not give up their "perceived" and "demonstrated" power and control over your life, you have to "save yourself", because the opressor is not going to save you from him.

After all a person may think and "feel" they have power and control over someone as they "feel or think" they are your "superior" (as in being the parent)" or have "authority" over you as in you are the child.

When that child is not a child anymore, and the "opressor" still feels a need for power and control over the adult child, problems arise.

The "opressor" sees nothing wrong with his behavior.........which is his personality.

All through your childhood you were dependent on your parents, but now you are not dependent, now you can take care of yourself, you are now an adult.

It may take years to get to the point of "escaping", but once you are an adult, the thought crosses your mind as to how to "escape" from this unhappy situation.

You can't speak up, they won't listen, or if you do, they look at your like "you should know your place" or "what is your problem".

You become depressed because you cannot express your anger, so you turn your anger inwards............you are forced to accept that this situation is not going to change for the better at least. That makes you angry, as you are left helpless with no choice.

The "family" members refuse to listen to you, you are unhappy, anytime you try to "exert your independence" you are shot down in a flash. You learn not to do that....or suffer the reprecussions. You keep thing to yourself. You keep secrets.

You don't want to run, but there is just no other choice. Trust me when I say" until you have walked" in "their shoes".........

You either "admit" defeat and nothing is going to change, or you walk.

Black or White, the family does not recognize any shades of grey.

Loyalty to the family plays no part in your decision, as loyalty would have to be put above your happiness for the rest of your life,

I strongly am of the opinion that Maura was not "free" totally without any "personal contraints" until that day in Mass when she packed her car and left.

She made that decision, on her own for herself. She was asserting her final act of absolute independence.

Maura may have been able to make "minor" decisions of no consequence, but when it came to other "major' life decision she was not free to do so as she wished.

But LE is still "hedging" their bets and keeping all options open, because you never know with one piece of evidence, cases and investigation turn on a dime. But I do not agree that evidence of foul play is forthcoming.

I think once she left and settled down from the "trauma" of escaping, that she now realized that she is the "master" of her own destiny, has her life to look forward to, without anyone "opressing" her and she can be happy. No one will tell Maura what to do, no on will make her feel that she is not in control of her own life.

I do feel that Maura came across or had "conversations" with people that told her that she does not have to live her life this way under her "opressors" thumb, that she is an adult, that she had choices. That gave her the encouragment to "live her own life".

When a peson has a sence of "new found" freedom, they want to enjoy it and experience it..

Maybe she picked up the alcohol to celebrate, in addition to "calming her nerves" because of the decision she just made, as there was no turning back, she was on the road......

Just a thought........

.

 

[armywife210]

AW..just have to say i feel quite betrayed.
i am very disappointed in how you first presented your self.
i must say i am a sucker and will certainly be more aware in the future.
......must say i forgot about that honor system and how that works.


May Maura's family and friends get the answers they seek. I truly wish them the best.

AW..just have to say i feel quite betrayed.
i am very disappointed in how you first presented your self.
i must say i am a sucker and will certainly be more aware in the future.
......must say i forgot about that honor system and how that works.
QUOTE]

I have, in no way misrepresented myself. I have told everyone the truth about myself from the getgo as it happened. I have not betrayed anyone.

When I first came into the Maura case I had no idea of anything other than the fact that she went to WP, her boyfriend graduated from WP in 2002 (my husband graduated in 99 so I wouldnt guess that he knew him from WP. I know a lot of people that went to WP but I had no reason to go poking around), and at one point he was stationed in Oklahoma... I assumed that at one point he was at Ft Sill but I had no idea he was still here (or that if he was, my husband would even know him). My husband has been stationed here at Ft Sill since 1999 except for Aug of 2003 to Aug 2004 when he was stationed in Korea. During that time I went home to MN to be with my family. We came back here in Aug of 04, my husband was assigned to 75th brigade headquarters. I know a lot of the people tha my husband works with however I had no idea that he knew CPT Rausch because it wasn't until the past few months that my husband even knew him. He didn't work with him until that point because CPT Rausches unit was not attached to 75th Brigade until recently. In fact, formally they arent even attached yet but because they will be within the next couple of months my husband has been working with him. My husbands job is to handle finances and budget for the entire brigade. CPT Rausch's job is to do the same, but for his battalion. Because of the recent attachment, he has recently began reporting to my husband.
I dont know if that is part of the problem in this betrayal or not, as you havent elaborated... until recently, sometime last week I think, I had no idea that my husband even knew him.

I began emailing certain members of the family to offer my prayers before I found out the connection between my husband and CPT Rausch. Other people figured it out before I did. I think a lot of trust was gained through those closest to Maura because of who my husband is, and the kind of man and officer that he is. It wasn't until just a few days ago that I was asked to represent them on this site. When I did begin representing them I was forthcoming about it. In no way did I try to do some sort of shady cover to get the inside scoop or something. What would be the point of that?
Whether or not you believe me, or anyone else does, really doesn't make a difference to me because I know what my goal and purpose is, I know the truth about my honesty. I was taught from a young age that really nothing else matters. Stay true to yourself and God and beyond that it's all soap opera. However for certain people to sling mud around in here to put me in a negative light certainly doesn't do justice for Maura and her family.

So really, please, let's put emphasis on what's important rather than seeing what color the mud in different parts of the country will make me when it makes contact.

 

[docwho3]

AW..just have to say i feel quite betrayed.
i am very disappointed in how you first presented your self.
i must say i am a sucker and will certainly be more aware in the future.
......must say i forgot about that honor system and how that works.

very impressed by thoughts and analysis by doc, katherine, chez and several other posters...i have learned alot about human nature, once again and as a parent and person it only reinforces my believe in staying open minded to all possibilities of behavior.

thank you.

May Maura's family and friends get the answers they seek. I truly wish them the best.

Thank you for the kind words. I look forward to your posts.

 

[docwho3]

You know Doc, I am still in "awe" of your posts. I especially liked when you said you were not "married" to a particular idea, considering what evidence may prevail.

Of course I am open to new evidence in this case that may "sway" my opinion also, but none yet has been forthcoming.

I am awaiting further developments in this case.....hopefully to a positive resolution. . .

Thank You for the kind words. I found your source link, the article piece, and your insights very interesting (and educational as well.) Thank you for posting them. I had not thought of any possible celebratory angle of the alcohol. Thank you again for your thoughts.

 

[docwho3]

. . .maybe someone impersonating a cop took her, these things happen alot. . .

I agree with you that it is a thing that should not be overlooked as a possibility and I believe that L.E. would look into that and I would bet they already have since that possibility has been posted on websites for some time now including this site and the mauramurray.com boards.
Still, I would not be a bit sad to see more attention given to that angle of the case just to be sure nothing has been overlooked.

 

[Peabody]

You have been able to help us on this site with posts based on personal knowledge and connection to the family, which I have always accepted.

Yesterday you said that RC Stevens the PI originally hired by the Murrays in 2004 as well as the current PI team "determined" that foul play was involved or that foul play was the "most likely" cause of Maura' disappearance.

Are you holding something back which can be discussed?

I have never questioned the statements of belief by the family & Maura's friends after about a week of searching for her had passed two years ago that her being missing and not having contacted them since Feb. 9 (or 2/11 if she was the caller to Lt Rausch) were in and of themselves strong indications if not evidence that Maura had been harmed or abducted.

And I totally respect Lt Rausch for saying that he can understand why Maura might have chosen to break up with him but not why she would break off all contact or relations with her family.

But your statements about the PI team and RC Stevens seem to hint at some deeper knowledge of facts or suspects than the rest of us have access to.[/QUOTE]

No, I do not believe they have any deeper knowledge than has been shared publicly. Or If they do, I am not aware of it.

When I said that RC Stevens "determined", I should have said "deduced". His decuction that Maura was harmed was based on his many years in law enforcement combined with the personal profile of Maura created by interviews of family, friends, professors, coaches, etc that knew her.

Same goes for the group of PI's.

Again, sorry, for using the word *determined*......deductions are based on the knowledge at hand........that is what these professional used.

 

[michelle]

I wish they would find something out about her disappearence, since i dont know much about the case is there a website that breaks it down, I dont know if i should just read the threads here from the beginning?? Thanks..

 

[Peabody]

You know Doc, I am still in "awe" of your posts. I especially liked when you said you were not "married" to a particular idea, considering what evidence may prevail.

Of course I am open to new evidence in this case that may "sway" my opinion also, but none yet has been forthcoming.

I am awaiting further developments in this case.....hopefully to a positive resolution.

ArmyWife: Truce? Why don't we just agree to disagree......to be reasonable. After all we are "neighbours".........

When I read this, Maura came to mind for some reason. For those of you who may think that I have an "alt.motive", for the post , I was reseaching information regarding "different personalities", "control and power" "family members"

From: http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Personality_Disorders/Site/Transcripts/narcissism.htm

I allowed my father much control over my life. I'm thirty-eight now and realize his narcissism. How do I limit his control without disowning him? Is it too late?

Dr. Vaknin: It is never too late to set oneself free. But liberty always has a price. Sometimes you can make peace with your oppressors, sometimes you can't, and YOU have to let go. It is a tango - you are BOTH engaged in this macabre dance. Stop the music. Set boundaries. Declare independence. Legislate. Fight for your rights. And if he persists, say goodbye.

If the "opressor" does not give up their "perceived" and "demonstrated" power and control over your life, you have to "save yourself", because the opressor is not going to save you from him.

After all a person may think and "feel" they have power and control over someone as they "feel or think" they are your "superior" (as in being the parent)" or have "authority" over you as in you are the child.

When that child is not a child anymore, and the "opressor" still feels a need for power and control over the adult child, problems arise.

The "opressor" sees nothing wrong with his behavior.........which is his personality.

All through your childhood you were dependent on your parents, but now you are not dependent, now you can take care of yourself, you are now an adult.

It may take years to get to the point of "escaping", but once you are an adult, the thought crosses your mind as to how to "escape" from this unhappy situation.

You can't speak up, they won't listen, or if you do, they look at your like "you should know your place" or "what is your problem".

You become depressed because you cannot express your anger, so you turn your anger inwards............you are forced to accept that this situation is not going to change for the better at least. That makes you angry, as you are left helpless with no choice.

The "family" members refuse to listen to you, you are unhappy, anytime you try to "exert your independence" you are shot down in a flash. You learn not to do that....or suffer the reprecussions. You keep thing to yourself. You keep secrets.

You don't want to run, but there is just no other choice. Trust me when I say" until you have walked" in "their shoes".........

You either "admit" defeat and nothing is going to change, or you walk.

Black or White, the family does not recognize any shades of grey.

Loyalty to the family plays no part in your decision, as loyalty would have to be put above your happiness for the rest of your life,

I strongly am of the opinion that Maura was not "free" totally without any "personal contraints" until that day in Mass when she packed her car and left.

She made that decision, on her own for herself. She was asserting her final act of absolute independence.

Maura may have been able to make "minor" decisions of no consequence, but when it came to other "major' life decision she was not free to do so as she wished.

But LE is still "hedging" their bets and keeping all options open, because you never know with one piece of evidence, cases and investigation turn on a dime. But I do not agree that evidence of foul play is forthcoming.

I think once she left and settled down from the "trauma" of escaping, that she now realized that she is the "master" of her own destiny, has her life to look forward to, without anyone "opressing" her and she can be happy. No one will tell Maura what to do, no on will make her feel that she is not in control of her own life.

I do feel that Maura came across or had "conversations" with people that told her that she does not have to live her life this way under her "opressors" thumb, that she is an adult, that she had choices. That gave her the encouragment to "live her own life".

When a peson has a sence of "new found" freedom, they want to enjoy it and experience it..

Maybe she picked up the alcohol to celebrate, in addition to "calming her nerves" because of the decision she just made, as there was no turning back, she was on the road......

Just a thought........

.

And, since her fiance was 1/2 a continent away, why did she not just flee to him?

Are you saying she was so misfortunate to have both a contolling family and a control freak for a fiance???

Waiting for your explanation of how you know/think either the family or the fiance are controlling?


****2 years ago today/this evening that the Murrays and Rausches met in the Haverhill Police Station and were told of 1.the runaway/suicide theory and 2. the dog scent ended at the SBD driveway 3. there were no footprints found relating to Maura 4. there was no evidence of foul play at the site of the abandoned car - at which time Maura's loved one begged for LE to continue a search for her because IF she was suicidal she needed help and IF she had succumbed to the elements, they wanted her home; yet were denied for more than a week until a cadaver dog was used in the second search at which time Scarinza announced something along the lines "we just wanted to make sure we did everything twice so we didn't miss anything" - in my opinion, reality was that they did the second search to shut the media up and herd the Murrays and Rausches out of town. Initially the Murrays and Rausches DID NOT/COULD NOT believe that someone had harmed Maura*****

 

[Peabody]

I wish they would find something out about her disappearence, since i dont know much about the case is there a website that breaks it down, I dont know if i should just read the threads here from the beginning?? Thanks..

There is a timeline, video of Montel Show, and much discussion at
WWW.Maura.Murray.COM

There are also photos and links at www.spbowers.com/mauramissing.html

 

[michelle]

I am on her website now, and it says that a person driving by seen her and called the police? Did they say if she was hurt, or hit her head, anything?

 

[KatherineQ]

Peabody, I am so curious about this case. And I have evil, evil thoughts running through my head about how I would somehow get that information from the police department that they are withholding. Thinking along the lines of hiring someone to infiltrate the police department and get access, or offering like 500K for anyone who can smuggle xeroxed files out of the police station. Or anyone from the court clerk's office who had court transcripts of the hearing to release the file, etc. I keep thinking, how can they get that information.

So. What is your BEST GUESS about what is in that information? Clearly LE has some information that either 1. would be destroyed if released to the family (seems like the unlikely option) or 2. a witness would be harrassed if the files were turned over to the family (this looks like the clear winner).

It appears to me that someone knows where Maura is, or at least knew where she was headed, and why, and has not told the family and doesn't want to be identified. Remember the friend who said the first week Maura was missing that she didn't want to get Maura "in trouble"?

So what's your best guess about what this information that both LE and the court agrees should not be released to Fred Murray?


edited to add: this is a long way off, but at 7 years of her absence, can her family attempt to declare her legally dead to force LE's hand in proving she is still alive?

 

[michelle]

who wont they let the family have the police reports and info? Are they afraid something is going to make them look bad?

 

[KatherineQ]

who wont they let the family have the police reports and info? Are they afraid something is going to make them look bad?

Michelle - clearly, they have some information. I thought at first they were withholding because they were in a snit with Fred Murray, but when the court agreed that they had evidence that would either be destroyed by being public or a witness would be intimidated if the files were turned over, I changed my mind completely. The court's findings indicate that in fact, there is information the Murray's don't have.