NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 3

[michelle]

Michelle - clearly, they have some information. I thought at first they were withholding because they were in a snit with Fred Murray, but when the court agreed that they had evidence that would either be destroyed by being public or a witness would be intimidated if the files were turned over, I changed my mind completely. The court's findings indicate that in fact, there is information the Murray's don't have.

Man they need to let this family know something!

 

[KatherineQ]

I think Fred Murray has so put off the LE that they don't care how much he's suffering. And that's really sad, but I kind of get it. Fred Murray is as off-putting as Jug Twitty, Natalee Holloway's stepfather.

I think in cases like this there needs to be a mediator. A victim/law enforcement mediation agency that can serve as a buffer for LE so that they don't have to deal with such abrasive personalities, and families of victims can have some rest.

I have empathy for Fred Murray and Jug Twitty, and I have empathy for LE who are just trying to do their job everyday without dealing with the threat of violence.

There should be a mediator. You, the family of the victim sit over here and stop being threatening, and you, the cops, sit over here and understand what pain the family is in.

 

[docwho3]

There are at least a couple reasons I can think of to not allow a family to know about the full details of an investigation:
1. A member of the family might lose it and go after any "person of interest" mentioned in the report. It has been known to have happened in other cases. That would only add to the tragedy.
And family (any family in such a position) might begin to pester witnesses and their family members in order to help prod them to spill more info.
2. If any of the family are considered "Persons of Interest" in the case it might reveal parts of the case to them that would allow the investigation target to realize there was evidence that needed to be destroyed or talking witnesses to be silenced to prevent arrest & conviction.

There may be other reasons also but those 2 reasons jumped out easily.

 

[gatetrekker44]

Fred Murray or Lt. Rausch(and for the record, I have not), I simply don't get where KatherineQ or CyberLaw make inferences to them being off-putting(KatherineQ about Fred Murray) or controlling(CyberLaw about both Fred Murray & Lt. Rausch). And since this has come up before on this forum, specifically in Maura's case discussions, please remember that family-bashing is NOT something that will be tolerated on this site. While I defend to the limit the rights of ANYONE to post their theories about a particular case, I do draw the line at thinly veiled insults intended to smear family members whose only "crime" is desperately wanting answers in the disappearances of their family members. So can we PLEASE stick to the case discussions, and unless the family members are suspected of criminal participation, leave their "supposed" involvement out of the discussions? :banghead:

 

[KatherineQ]

Gatetrekker - no, we can't dismiss family personalities when we discuss in this forum.

It sounds as if you haven't followed this case from the beginning. Maybe you should go back and do that now.

I am TOTALLY in Fred Murray's court, and pleading with LE to release information regarding Maura's disappeance.

On the other hand, he is abrasive. It is perhaps his caustic personality that has caused LE to not release information to him. CLEARLY they have information that they are unwilling to share.

 

[docwho3]

Fred Murray or Lt. Rausch(and for the record, I have not), I simply don't get where KatherineQ or CyberLaw make inferences to them being off-putting(KatherineQ about Fred Murray) or controlling(CyberLaw about both Fred Murray & Lt. Rausch). And since this has come up before on this forum, specifically in Maura's case discussions, please remember that family-bashing is NOT something that will be tolerated on this site. While I defend to the limit the rights of ANYONE to post their theories about a particular case, I do draw the line at thinly veiled insults intended to smear family members whose only "crime" is desperately wanting answers in the disappearances of their family members. So can we PLEASE stick to the case discussions, and unless the family members are suspected of criminal participation, leave their "supposed" involvement out of the discussions? :banghead:

I am very surprised at your outburst. It seems very unbecoming for a nonmoderator to threaten attempt to use rules to shut down a line of investigation because he doesn't like the direction it seems to him/her to be going. And for the record I have seen enough mentioned in the news reports to warrant the posts I have seen made so far,but thats' my opinion. And for the record I, as another member of websleuths, do not feel anyone was going out of their way to trash the family. People are working the case as best they can as far as I can tell. Do you have anything to contribute to members understanding of the case about the disappearance of Maura?

 

[PonderingThings]

I have a few questions about this case - can anyone answer?

1. All activity, since February 9, 2004 stopped on Maura's bank account, cell phone, etc.. So this is a confirmed date/time of disappearance - its not just the date the witness said they saw Maura and called police... right?

2. Was Maura's hair frosted or did it have blonde streaks?

3. Did Maura bite her nails or keep them very short?

4. Were Maura's ears pierced?

Thanks

 

[docwho3]

There has been mention of Maura and her possibly drinking before the wreck or not, as well as other questions about her. I only found one article that mentions much about what she was like from the perspective of other students that knew her for any length of time. While I don't know if she drank anything during her drive the evening she disappeared it was reported she had been drinking into the wee hours the night before one of her wrecks. Even forgetting the drink angle the farther down the page you read the more interestng it seems to get. Pay close attention to the dates and times. I am not sure there aren't some inconsistencies in the article.
http://ledger.southofboston.com/articles/2004/03/09/news/news02.txt

Also there was a quote that caught my eye, saying Maura was

. . .someone who could be ‘‘somewhat flirtatious'' when she drank. . .

and that was described as being a recent change in her behavior.

And another bit from the same article caught my Eye:

. . .Alfieri said Markopoulos, Murray and a few friends were drinking into the late-night hours of Feb. 8. Fred Murray was staying in a hotel on Route 9 that weekend. He was in town to help his daughter find a new car.
Father and daughter ate dinner at the Amherst Brewing Co., a popular watering hole, that night. Then Markopoulos showed up for a drink. After about an hour, they left, the girls dropped Fred Murray at his hotel, and headed to Alfieri's dorm. . .

 

[petra]

First, I must say that if one of my children, close relative or friend was missing-I would do everything in my power-emotionally,financially,legally,perhaps illegally.etc. to find that missing person if they were 10, 20 or 50 years old.

From my point of view--selfish as it may be-- I would push every boundary and beyond. As a parent, I would not care about their legal right to privacy. I would want something, anything to know...whether abducted, imprisoned, murdered or runaway. The not knowing would be sure hell for me.

I understand fully Mr Murrray's quest and the horrible toll it must take on him and the family in hitting all these different roadblocks. Frustration and total disgust trying to work within a system and hitting brickwalls would drive me over the edge.

Two years now is way too long for any person to bear. I wish the Murray's the best in their pursuit and support them in doing so.

Having said that, from what I have gleened in the posts,articles etc....I would like to add some of my own thoughts...

But would like to know if a discussion is really welcome here OR is it support wanted so Mr Murray can pursue his legal appeals with LE????

 

[docwho3]

I have a few questions about this case - can anyone answer?

1. All activity, since February 9, 2004 stopped on Maura's bank account, cell phone, etc.. So this is a confirmed date/time of disappearance - its not just the date the witness said they saw Maura and called police... right?

2. Was Maura's hair frosted or did it have blonde streaks?

3. Did Maura bite her nails or keep them very short?

4. Were Maura's ears pierced?

Thanks

My understanding from a planet huff article (I think that was where I read it) was that there was actual security cam footage showing her buying the alcohol and tylenol before leaving the day of her disappearance and that she seemed to be alone at that time. You might want to go to his website and read to make sure of those facts though. I haven't read the article in months now so my memory might be off.

But you do raise an interesting point. We have Maura's car showing up at the side of a road and No Maura. But we have 3 witnesses who claim she was there but none have ever seen her before that I know of (School bus driver, a neighbor, and a construction worker who was passing through and who only remembered seeing her after it came out in the papers.) Howewver, it does seem far fetched to think these people are all somehow connected to her disappearance when they did not know her before this time (or at least no connection has surfaced.) So did someone other than Maura, but resembling her a little, drive the car out there and then wreck and leave it to create a mystery that leads away from the truth of what happened?

That too is possible but to have packed up stuff that Maura loved and would always have taken with her in the car (such as her stuffed monkey and such) would have taken someone with very intimate knowledge of Maura's habits. I don't yet see her college chums at the new school knowing enough about her to do that. And it doesn't seem to explain her death-in-the-family excuse to be gone a few days.

Still, I am not entirely meaning to shoot down any of those possibilities. Everything bears looking into.

 

[docwho3]

. . .Having said that, from what I have gleened in the posts,articles etc....I would like to add some of my own thoughts...

But would like to know if a discussion is really welcome here OR is it support wanted so Mr Murray can pursue his legal appeals with LE????

(Welcoming smile)
I can only speak for myself but you are most welcome to speak your thoughts as far as I am concerned. I know you posted when you thought we were wrong in something said, so I believe you will speak what you believe to be true and not just for scoring points.

 

[petra]

i have tried to find a timeline of maura before feb 9 2004

how long was she at WP?
seems she started Umass in Jan 2002 and attended to the start of her 5th semester, missing feb 9 2004...which would be about 2 wks into the 5th semester....is this correct??

 

[PonderingThings]

Docwho thanks for the information about 3 people claiming to have seen Maura at the accident site. I had only read about 1 person - the person who called it into 911.

I did not have any theory that someone who resembles Maura might have staged the accident. I simply was trying to determine the confirmed time of her disappearance. So it appears to be February 9, 2004 at 7-7:30 pm.

I am still interested in my other 3 questions, if anyone can answer them.

 

[docwho3]

i have tried to find a timeline of maura before feb 9 2004

how long was she at WP?
seems she started Umass in Jan 2002 and attended to the start of her 5th semester, missing feb 9 2002...which would be about 2 wks into the 5th semester....is this correct??

Peabody once posted some timeline info in a response to me. You can read it at http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=892987&postcount=189

Its post number 189 in the "Maura Murray Part 2-merged" thread.
I hope the info helps you.

 

[docwho3]

Docwho thanks for the information about 3 people claiming to have seen Maura at the accident site. I had only read about 1 person - the person who called it into 911.

I did not have any theory that someone who resembles Maura might have staged the accident. I simply was trying to determine the confirmed time of her disappearance. So it appears to be February 9, 2004 at 7-7:30 pm.

I am still interested in my other 3 questions, if anyone can answer them.

Sorry, I misworded my response. I meant your question raised that possibility to my mind, not that you had stated any such theory yourself. I was preparing to go back and edit my post to that effect when I saw you had already responded. If you go back and read the posts starting at number 121 in the "Maura Murray Part 2-merged" thread I made a post that has links in it to news reports about the accident. I hope they help you. Also there are links to new reports at <modsnip - no longer a working website>

 

[murraydwyer]

A few days ago somebody complained about the people from Maura's website coming over to Websleuths and posting. I can't find it now and don't know whether I just don't have the patience to read closely enough or it was edited, but I did some research. Most of the posters on Maura's website that I know (from usernames) to be from Websleuths went to Maura's site from Websleuths...not the reverse....I have actually been on Websleuths since long before Maura's website went up. Along the same lines, there was a comment made (the reason I decided to interject) about Gatetrekker

Gatetrekker - no, we can't dismiss family personalities when we discuss in this forum.

It sounds as if you haven't followed this case from the beginning. Maybe you should go back and do that now.​

Gatetrekker was very active in posting on Maura's thread...unfortunately in February of 2005 with about 500 replies and over 35,000 views a thread on Maura was lost...As to the Gatetrekker's comments about family bashing, it was, I'm sure, reminding posters of the following:

Victims and family members will no longer be bashed here at WS.

I am disturbed with the attacks on the victims and their family on this forum. Websleuths may not be a victims advocate forum but the attacks are ugly and I would like to see them stopped. It is not acceptable to be slamming them on the forum.

Posters should be reminded that the Murray family have a child missing , trashing them on Websleuths should not be occurring. We are not going to participate in victim bashing​

That being said, I have revised my signature...a disclaimer in effect...If you choose, you can completely ignore my input as biased. I have not posted in quite a while, because it became too frustrating to attempt to get a discussion going about anything other than the 'voluntarily missing' theory.

As I've posted, I have no problem with theories...I have a problem when theories become presented as fact...and will occassionally come back to ask for a poster to cite the article the received information from or point out that a comment is not a known fact. For instance, the other day a poster implied that Maura was seen on tape buying alcohol and tylenol the day she disappeared. I have literally hundreds of articles and news broadcasts saved...I have never seen this statement. In point of fact, since the tylenol bottle was left in the car, I know for a fact that it was not a new bottle.

As to Maura's dad's personality traits or any of Maura's family for that matter, I have never seen anything in print or on the news from which I could determine that he was abrasive...I have on Websleuths (which is why the warning above was posted) and on CN2000 which was why a poster appears to have disappeared, and I might add the discussion stopped. Obviously, interpretations of personality is very subjective, but I might be abrasive if it were my daughter who was missing and the bottom line is what does it matter? Somebody mentioned that they thought perhaps that's why the police were withholding information from Fred...Consider this, in December before or after the Court hearing, someone from the Attorney General's office told a reporter that the police had conducted a search a couple of weeks before based on a tip (this did not appear in the online version of the paper). Fred and the family found out because the article was sent to the attorney a week later. Now, I for one would not expect the police or the Asst. Attorney General or even the victim's advocate to tell Maura's father who gave them the tip, or even where the search took place, but if it is information that can be given to the press, basic human kindness or whatever would require that the family be told first.

To answer a couple of questions...although as my signature states I have never met Maura, I have seen probably a 100 or more pictures and her hair might be sun streaked, but I don't believe she ever colored it...perhaps someone else can answer more clearly. This is the only picture where Maura's hair appears streaked...since she was a runner, she spent a lot of time outdoors and it seems reasonable to believe that the sun bleached it a bit:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a126/MauraMurray/MauraMurray00120copy.jpg
I've been told that her nails were short. As to her ears being pierced...I don't know. I just looked at the picures I have and she doesn't appear to be wearing earrings, but it is hard to tell. That is an interesting question, I hope you will explain why you ask...since it is a question that has come up before.

 

[petra]

thanks doc..here i go

i see Maura on a personal downward spiral.
goes to WP, decides not for her- transfers to UMass

this may sound quite snobby or elitiest- but UMass is basically a big leap backwards.
(I have checked out stats on both schools and have links)
I am also familiar with this area unnis see we did the two week college trip with D two years ago.

Maura began as a transfer major in chem enginering...than transfering to nursing. i see this as a step back.

It is repeated been said she was on full scholarship. UMass is a state school and for in state residents tuition (and room and board) is circa 15,000 USD a year for 2005-2006.

Financial packages are provided...possible small merit circa 3,000 but most based on financial need combined with grants,loans, work study etc.

I am not by any means pointing fingers.
I bring this up because everything I have read talk about stellar student, full scholarship, difficult subjects, two part time jobs.
To me this seems a bit overstated...Maura is human and seems like a very nice person. There is no need to harp on her super achievements to make her special. Maura is special and unique just because she is Maura.

Does anyone get my drift??
So much is overstated from the beginning.
More on what I see as unusual behavior on Maura's part and her possibly slipping into some self-dobt and depression.

 

[PonderingThings]

To answer a couple of questions...although as my signature states I have never met Maura, I have seen probably a 100 or more pictures and her hair might be sun streaked, but I don't believe she ever colored it...perhaps someone else can answer more clearly. This is the only picture where Maura's hair appears streaked...since she was a runner, she spent a lot of time outdoors and it seems reasonable to believe that the sun bleached it a bit:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a126/MauraMurray/MauraMurray00120copy.jpg
I've been told that her nails were short. As to her ears being pierced...I don't know. I just looked at the picures I have and she doesn't appear to be wearing earrings, but it is hard to tell. That is an interesting question, I hope you will explain why you ask...siince it is a question that has come up before.

Thank you for attempting to answer my questions. I asked because these details are sometimes given to describe someone who has been found either dead, or alive but medically unable to respond.

Although the most likely cause of Maura's disappearance is an abduction, I have not ruled out an accidental traffic accident, a medical collapse, a loss of memory, etc.. As a result I'm looking for her in "other places".

1. As you mentioned (thanks for the pic) Maura's hair does appear to be sun streaked in some of her photos. Since most of the published photos that I've seen have her hair pulled back its hard to say if it is just sun streaked. Do you have a pic that shows her with her hair down? I seem to recall one early on but can't locate it now.

2. I have not noticed a photo of Maura wearing earrings. So I'm assuming that her ears are NOT pierced.

3. I have not seen a photo where Maura's nails are long. Also, as a nursing student she would likely keep then short. Again, my assumption.

Basically I'm trying to confirm some identifying details about Maura. I don't like to assume anything that can easily be clarified by someone who knows her.

 

[petra]

Peabody once posted some timeline info in a response to me. You can read it at http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=892987&postcount=189

Its post number 189 in the "Maura Murray Part 2-merged" thread.
I hope the info helps you.

thanks doc...i had read that. but was wondering about WP? How long did she attend- 6 months, 1 1/2 yrs?? before starting UMass in Jan 2002

 

[murraydwyer]

I am not by any means pointing fingers.
I bring this up because everything I have read talk about stellar student, full scholarship, difficult subjects, two part time jobs.
To me this seems a bit overstated...Maura is human and seems like a very nice person. There is no need to harp on her super achievements to make her special. Maura is special and unique just because she is Maura.

Does anyone get my drift??
So much is overstated from the beginning.​

This post appeared while I was posting mine above...You are absolutely right...from all that I have read and heard from friends and friends parents, Maura is special and unique. "Overstated"....should those who mentioned her achievements have left it to the police to present information about Maura...about the only details they released had to do with Maura being suicidal, buying alcohol and having had two car accidents. And I repeat I have never met Maura...but I have talked to family members and her friends parents and read what they said...do you expect them to trash talk her...of course her family and friends countered what the police where saying and implying??? If she was drinking and driving, shame on her. If she lied to professors, shame on her. She had two accidents....if the media is to be believed the roads were icy in both and could have played as much a part as alcohol...she was not cited in the first accident she's never been seen again by anybody who knows her in the second...Was Maura upset by something...it is a logical conclusion, but really....'does anybody get my drift'.

She changed majors....so. I went to the orientation for parents when my son entered UMass they made a huge deal about not being surprised if your child changed majors within the first few months...so much so that I was surprised that my son didn't until the end of his junior year... While chemical engineering may have presented Maura with more options for higher paid positions, perhaps she decided nursing would be more rewarding...but lets face it nurses have a much harder time paying of student loans and from what I've heard UMass has a good nursing program...How this could be conceived as a step backward is beyond me...

Pondering...there are very few pictures of Maura with her hair down...this is the only one I could scan:

Maura - not sure how old she was