NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 4

[docwho3]

. . .Since this thread has been pretty respectful as of late, I don't see any point to these comments. If you have a problem with Peabody, as it appears you do, IMO you should take it to PM's as it detracts from the informative discussion we have been having. She is not trying to control the discussion anymore than you are. . .

When people other than moderators tell others what they can and can't post I think thats controlling.
And yes, you, as well, can PM me if you have a problem with me.

. . .Doc, I noticed that you questioned the actions of the LE that responded to the seen of Maura's wreck (while on the way to the hotel after the party). You implied that just because she didn't get a ticket doesn't mean she wasn't drunk. She very well may have been drunk, however, it is unlikely that a police officer would give a free pass to a young college student if she was really drunk. . .

Actually I was not questioning L.E. actions. I merely stated that I know that not everyone gets a DUI when they drive drunk and have a wreck. It is certainly possible and I have in fact known it to happen in other states. And I also think the whole drunk issue is not truly of much value in determining what happened to Maura so I am not certain why peabody and presumably you too go to all the trouble to make an issue about it. I think it is at least very possible that she was drunk enough to have a wreck. The news article I read makes it seem like someone thought she should wait and go meet her dad the next day and I think if she had waited the accident would have been less likely to happen. I do not say she certainly was drunk and I do not say she was not drunk. I say it was a reasonable possibility to post about given that news article.

 

[Masterj]

When people other than moderators tell others what they can and can't post I think thats controlling.
And yes, you, as well, can PM me if you have a problem with me.

Actually I was not questioning L.E. actions. I merely stated that I know that not everyone gets a DUI when they drive drunk and have a wreck. It is certainly possible and I have in fact known it to happen in other states. And I also think the whole drunk issue is not truly of much value in determining what happened to Maura so I am not certain why peabody and presumably you too go to all the trouble to make an issue about it. I think it is at least very possible that she was drunk enough to have a wreck. The news article I read makes it seem like someone thought she should wait and go meet her dad the next day and I think if she had waited the accident would have been less likely to happen. I do not say she certainly was drunk and I do not say she was not drunk. I say it was a reasonable possibility to post about given that news article.

I pm'd you.

I responded to your post. I don't really see how my response to that post means I am "going through the trouble of making an issue about it." I offered another opinion and even conceded that I could understand where you were coming from. I do not understand the hostility in your post.

 

[docwho3]

I pm'd you.

I responded to your post. I don't really see how my response to that post means I am "going through the trouble of making an issue about it." I offered another opinion and even conceded that I could understand where you were coming from. I do not understand the hostility in your post.

I think you are perceiving enmity where there is none. I just did not understand why it was even an issue to bother debating but you are welcome to your opinion on it.

Yes I think Maura may have been drunk (meaning too impaired to safely drive) but I don't really care that much one way or the other. I just felt that people should be able to post an opnion about it.

My response to you was meant to convey that and not meant to convey hostility.

I do think it is unfair to blame me for what certain others have done in bullying posters. It was not I who said lets not post this or lets not post that because I don't think thats a fact or because I don't agree to it. This is a case discussion thread not a family info&support thread where only news articles and encouraging words are allowed and some people seem to think its their duty to make everyone else post only what they view as acceptable facts. I took issue with such practice as bullying but that does not make it my fault the practice of bullying happened.

 

[Tristan]

In an effort to get back to discussing the case, I want to go over the
theories on what could have happened to Maura, and if anyone likes, feel free to discuss why you think each theory is valid or not, as the case may be.

1. Maura had a premeditated plan to run away and start a new life.
She wanted to have her own life, and maybe wasn't sure she wanted
to be a nurse or even to marry Lt. Rausch. She is currently living
somewhere pursuing her own interests. If that is the case, I feel that Maura would DEFINITELY have to have had a "helper" following behind her on he road.

~I can only say that without proof that she is alive and well, I cannot wholeheartedly believe this theory. (or disbelieve it.)


2. Maura was abducted in the 10-20 minutes she was on that rural road.

~My problem with this theory, is that it is highly unlikely that a predator
could have kidnapped her in such a short time span.
Also, if she had told someone in her family that she was going out of
town for a few days, a week, whatever, I would be MUCH more likely
to believe the abduction theory.

3.Maura committed suicide.

~I see some evidence of that (the packed up room, the alcohol, taking some of her favorite belongings), but my doubt amounts to:
WHERE is the body??

4. Maura went into the woods and dies from the elements.

~Maura was a young, strong girl. It was not that cold out that night.
There were no tracks in the snow, and again, WHERE is the body??

Any thoughts?

 

[docwho3]

In an effort to get back to discussing the case, I want to go over the
theories on what could have happened to Maura, and if anyone likes, feel free to discuss why you think each theory is valid or not, as the case may be. . .

Your post sounds reasonable to me. It is difficult to know anything for certain without finding a body, either a live one or dead one.

My own opinion, unless more evidence surfaces to the contrary, is that she ran away and is living and will be found in time, probably within another 8 to 18 years.

If she had spoken to her family or boyfriend about her plans to leave I would be leaning a little more towards foul play. No matter how strongly some may believe that she wanted to speak to her family or boyfriend about her plans, the fact is that she did not.

Suicide is not generally spoken of as foul play, probably because it is not an act committed by another human against you. If she had commited suicide in some motel room somewhere I think the body would have been reported by now but unless a DNA sample is taken and compared to some DNA database with Maura's family DNA in it (and that is not done all that often), the body may remain as a Jane Doe, maybe as far away as some other state. Suicide could also have happened if she got a ride to go down the road a few miles from the accident site and then got let out and then hiked into the wilderness and found a remote place to die and was never yet found. The problem is that no one ever admitted picking her up even for a short few miles and the case has had national coverage. So again, even if she got one, we just have no evidence to support her having gotten that unplanned ride.

That's my opinion so far. I am sure others have their own take on things as well. I think I will go make a cup of hot cocoa and sit back and read some other threads.

 

[czechmate7]

Tristan~
I guess when you read the stories and gather the facts on this case you can come to one definite conclusion....Maura could be ANYWHERE dead or alive. She could be in Portland, Canada, Italy, Texas, Tinbucktwo, the White Mountains.
Another story I have been following is Jeffrey Ben who disappeared 5 years ago. There were signs of foul play in his case and yesterday they believe they found his remains somewhere in the mountains of Oklahoma (I do have a point to this regarding Maura) anyway, it took them 5 years if it is indeed Jeffrey. Maybe Maura has committed suicide (or was abducted....can't rule anything out!!) and her body hasn't been found yet.
My own personal opinion is Maura is living a carefree life, and if I am correct, I hope she has found inner peace.

sidenote * I have been in contact with Jeffrey Bens' mother for a couple of years and even with signs of foul play she never once conveyed to me (or the public) that she felt Jeffrey was dead (I knew deep in her heart she felt it, but...). That is why I don't understand why Maura's family/friends are so quick to write Maura off as dead.

 

[nnglas]

At first I thought that maybe she was abducted. Then I read all the information and I thought she ran away. I am now leaning towards a different theory. But I have a question for anybody that knows the answer. How do they know that Maura bought alcohol before she left? It seems like I read about a videotape of her at the store, but how did they know she even went to the store?

 

[Tristan]

Czechmate...how did Jeffrey Bens die? Suicide? From the elements?
Other?

I'm glad they found him...so his family can have closure.

 

[docwho3]

. . . It seems like I read about a videotape of her at the store, but how did they know she even went to the store?

Note: I added the bolding in the quote below.

. . .At 3:40 p.m. that afternoon, Maura Murray withdrew $280 from an ATM and later made a stop at a local liquor store in Amherst, where she was attending the University of Massachusetts. Surveillance cameras recorded her movements at both locations and she appeared to be alone. . .

http://huffcrimeblog.com/?p=223

 

[murraydwyer]

Originally Posted by nnglas
. . . It seems like I read about a videotape of her at the store, but how did they know she even went to the store?

Good question...unfortunately I don't have a definitive answer for you. It is possible that the clerk was a UMASS student who knew Maura or had seen the posters or perhaps just someone who saw it on the news. I know from having been there that even three months later, there were posters of Maura all over the campus.

It is also possible that they found a receipt in the car or perhaps a sticker on the container that was found in the car.

 

[Tristan]

Excellent question....and answer. Many liquor stores tag their merchandise, so they probably saw that, or they just checked local places since "Missing" posters were all over the area. Perhaps the liquor store clerk remembered seeing her and reported it.

This case is haunting me.....WHERE is this girl??!

 

[armywife210]

In response to the question regarding the liquor, There was a receipt in her car with the alcohol listed, the date, and the liquor store. The tape from the liquor store contained her buying it.
I have not been on for awhile as I was spending time with my deploying husband, and then getting my family back to normal after his departure. For those of you who don't know, I was asked by the family to message on this site regarding the facts of Maura's case.
My husband worked with Billy, Maura's boyfriend, up until my husband deployed two weeks ago. My husband is also a West Point Grad, class of '99 so I know a lot about the inner workings of West Point, and what I don't know I can find out the facts.
I am just getting this all out right now so there isn't something that erupts later where people think I have "hidden facts, and betrayed" them... as what happened before on this site.
I am making it very clear here and now.
I hope this discussion helps to find Maura, as I don't see facts in any way pointing to her willfully leaving. It has become obvious to many Private Investigators as well that something horrible happened to her. In January a group of Private Investigators volunteered their time and resources to finding out what went awry and who caused it... I would invite anyone who hasn't to come to the forum on mauramurray.com to find out more facts about this. There are many photos of the site where Maura disappeared, and there are members of the family, and Maura's friends over there that can answer your questions much more fluently...

 

[mocity]

Welcome back! Glad you are back as I see you are a valuable resource to this discussion....

 

[docwho3]

I have 3 questions for readers:
1. If Maura is an adult runaway where do you (the reader) think she went to start a new life?
2. Do you think she finished college and if so what do you think she studied?
3. What sort of occupation would you think she would choose to make her living?

 

[Tristan]

Excellent questions, DocWho. It is SO hard to know where Maura may have went, but I'm guessing it is far from where she lived.

I cannot grasp the idea of a 21 year old girl (or 31, for that matter)
going off alone to start a new life.

When people disappear voluntarily, they often have a person helping them.
It could be a man she is romantically involved with, or just a female friend.

I'm curious to hear others' thoughts.

 

[murraydwyer]

First, I don't mean this question as a challenge. I think the questions you asked are intersting and given your perspective, understandable. You ask:

2. Do you think she finished college and if so what do you think she studied?

I know you've done a lot of research into voluntarily missing persons. How would one be admitted to a college, let alone finish college without transcripts proving attendence and completion of either high school or college courses. I suspect post Katrina it would be easy to say you were from the south, but prior to this past fall not as easy.

 

[czechmate7]

I have 3 questions for readers:
1. If Maura is an adult runaway where do you (the reader) think she went to start a new life?
2. Do you think she finished college and if so what do you think she studied?
3. What sort of occupation would you think she would choose to make her living?

Doc~

I think she initially went to Canada...maybe? She would probably be "less trackable" there. But I have to say, until I joined Websleuths last year I had NO clue who Maura Murray was. I have to believe the general public has no clue who Maura Murray is. She could be anywhere and go unnoticed.
There was a story recently about a woman who was missing for 10-15 years and was recently found working @ Sams club in Oklahoma I believe...anyway, she had to have used her SS# to get the job right? Does LE have the ability to put a "watch" on a SS# being used on a missing person? (although that sounds like an invasion of privacy issue...)

As far as college, does anyone know if Maura had a copy of her transcipts? If she tried to enroll in another college and had a copy of her transcipts they would not have to notify UMass or WP. She could have very well enrolled anywhere and finished her education.
Does anyone (Armywife,Peabody, Murraydwyer) know why Maura changed career paths? Chemical Engineering to Nursing is a pretty drastic change.

 

[Peabody]

Doc~

I think she initially went to Canada...maybe? She would probably be "less trackable" there. But I have to say, until I joined Websleuths last year I had NO clue who Maura Murray was. I have to believe the general public has no clue who Maura Murray is. She could be anywhere and go unnoticed.
There was a story recently about a woman who was missing for 10-15 years and was recently found working @ Sams club in Oklahoma I believe...anyway, she had to have used her SS# to get the job right? Does LE have the ability to put a "watch" on a SS# being used on a missing person? (although that sounds like an invasion of privacy issue...)

As far as college, does anyone know if Maura had a copy of her transcipts? If she tried to enroll in another college and had a copy of her transcipts they would not have to notify UMass or WP. She could have very well enrolled anywhere and finished her education.
Does anyone (Armywife,Peabody, Murraydwyer) know why Maura changed career paths? Chemical Engineering to Nursing is a pretty drastic change.

She changed paths because she did not like chemical engineering. She told her friends that she preferred working with "people" as opposed to "things" and that once she was beyond the basic college requirements - which she had taken at West Point - she discovered that MOST of the chemical engineering majors were nerdy personalities and she did not enjoy working with them.

I was also told that it was Maura's plan to continue her education in the medical field. She did not plan on being "just a nurse" as some in earlier posts implied as demeaning.

In my opinion (learned at a later stage in life) it is more important to do a job that one finds fulfilling, not one that makes the most money or is considered as more prestigious.......seems Maura either knew this or learned it much earlier than many.

 

[czechmate7]

She changed paths because she did not like chemical engineering. She told her friends that she preferred working with "people" as opposed to "things" and that once she was beyond the basic college requirements - which she had taken at West Point - she discovered that MOST of the chemical engineering majors were nerdy personalities and she did not enjoy working with them.

Thanks for the reply Peabody. I find it odd that with her "introvert" personality (I'm speculating from articles I've read about Maura...I didn't know her so I could be off base...it's just an educated guess I've formed from reading articles describing Maura...I too am introvert and can usually tell other introverts) that Maura would prefer to work with people.

Do you know what Maura's ultimate goal was in her career path? A doctor?

You know, if she would have married Lt Rausch, basically she would have lived the military life she so did not like. I am both ex military and after discharging, married into the military...not much difference. If Maura had planned to further her career in the medical field, she would have had to do it on Lt Rausch's schedule (him getting transfered from state to state,etc..

I agree with your comment about the poster stating "just a nurse"!! But the comment Maura made about Chemical Engineers isn't any nicer...

 

[Peabody]

Thanks for the reply Peabody. I find it odd that with her "introvert" personality (I'm speculating from articles I've read about Maura...I didn't know her so I could be off base...it's just an educated guess I've formed from reading articles describing Maura...I too am introvert and can usually tell other introverts) that Maura would prefer to work with people.

Do you know what Maura's ultimate goal was in her career path? A doctor?

You know, if she would have married Lt Rausch, basically she would have lived the military life she so did not like. I am both ex military and after discharging, married into the military...not much difference. If Maura had planned to further her career in the medical field, she would have had to do it on Lt Rausch's schedule (him getting transfered from state to state,etc..

I agree with your comment about the poster stating "just a nurse"!! But the comment Maura made about Chemical Engineers isn't any nicer...

I do not know her utimate career goal.

Have been told the following by more than one who was close to her:

Maura knew that while in the military as the wife of an officer, who would often be transferred to various locations, that a nursing career would be "perfect" because there is always a demand for nurses in any location.....she also felt that nursing would be "perfect" as a stepping stone in the medical field. I don't think anyone has mentioned "doctor" as a certainty, only possibility.

The one thing she often stated (and was slightly touched upon in the 20/20 episode by her friend "Liz" who stated that "after meeting Bill, she never stopped talking about him or wanting to be with him......") that all she really wanted to do was "marry Bill and have lots of little Billies".....so I am not sure that she was a career oriented female; she may have been a family oriented female (I realize that you can be both, but I am saying that she may have preferred devoting her time and efforts to a family FIRST, and I personally do not find that demeaning)

I also do not find Maura's ***general statement*** that "many" Chemical Engineers were nerdy and not people persons offensive. Knowing several engineers personally, they jokingly refer to themselves as a nerdy bunch........guess it's just your take on the matter. If Maura had called someone in Chemical Engineering this "name" in a derogatory tone, I would agree completely that she would have been out of line. However, this is not the case.

I was forwarded some descriptive emails about Maura from a few friends - I am fairly confident that I could obtain permission to post them. ONE thing they made clear was her 100% acceptance of all people and her choice to not be critical or judgmental of others. Frankly, the reason that I have not asked for permissionto post them is the RISK that posters will then attack Maura as they have her family...........I am continually amazed at what some posters read between the lines..........opinion is opinion, and I will be honest enough to admit that it is my opinion that her family does not need additional attacks made on Maura.

I also do not think it is a consensus that Maura is/was an introvert. By all accounts, she was **slow** or cautous about letting a person into her close circle of friends, but if you read about her, everyone speaks of her witty remarks, her constant, contagious giggle, etc - not the decription of an introvert.........fairly certain that these descriptions or simiilar are in Kelly Jolkowski's blog Project Jason-Voice for the Missing

Kelly's blog is featured on Maura's site along with the full video of The Montel Show - I believe it also has a few remarks by her friends;
Link to blog and Montel Show: <modsnip - no longer a working website>