NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 4

[nhjane]

Gatetrekker ... There is an article at The Patriot Ledger by Joe McGee that mentions that Butch was a former Taunton Mass. police officer. Here is the link:

http://ledger.southofboston.com/articles/2005/02/10/news/news02.txt

 

[CyberLaw]

OMG, once and for all the timeline just does not fit the BD having anything to do with this "voluntary" missing person.

If one uses logic skills and actually breaks down the timeline, you will obviously see that this is and was a No starter and always has been a no starter.

Of course no one knew that the construction worker saw Maura until he came forward, no one knew who he was. If he was guilty of a crime, he could have just not come forward, no brought attention to himself, no one would know that he saw her, at all.

I was on the Doe Network and I was amazed at the number of people who have been "missing" for years, some from the mid 1970's, 1980 and 1990 who have been found alive and well.

For example:

John Casby
John Casby had been missing since October 23, 1995 from Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. He was located safe in June 2005.

Rosaynna Lurlene Crowder
Rosaynna Crowder was found safe in 2001. She had been missing since January 1991 from Las Vegas, Nevada.

Laurie Davern
Laurie Davern was found safe in 2003. She had been missing since April 9, 1976 from Grand Island, Erie County, New York. She was a teenager when she went missing.

Ethel May Yates Harms
Ethel Harms had been missing from Colorado since 1956 and was located in August of 2005.

Jennifer Leigh Herrmann
Herrmann was last seen when she ran away from her Tennessee home in 1992. She has been safely located.

Brian Neil Hooks
Brian Hooks was last seen in September 24, 1988 in Florence, South Carolina. He was located safe in 2000 by the Knox County Sheriff's Office in Tennessee.

Larry James
Larry James was missing since 1979 from St. Anthony, Minnesota. Due to the efforts of the members of the Doe Network, James was located safe in May 2004, living in another state

Catherine Ann Mattingly
Mattingly was last seen on November 2, 1987 in Clarksville, Tennessee.
In December of 2004, seventeen years after she went missing, Catherine saw her case on The Doe Network and contacted her family!

[size=+0]Bobbi Louaine Parker
Bobbi Parker disappeared from Granite, Oklahoma on August 30, 1994. She was located in good health in April 2005 in Texas.

[/size]
Low and behold, the "voluntary" missing people are alive and well and doing just fine without their family.

Will wonders never cease.....

That is why after two years(2), it does not seem like a long time for a "missing person" to be missing by choice.

Not a long time at all, considering some people have been missing and located in good health after 10 years, 15 years, etc.

I again have no doubt that Maura is going to be one of those people in the years to come who will be found alive and well and loving life.

I again have no doubt that Maura is a smart, resourcefull person, who has succeeded at everything she has done and will continue to succeed in all of her future endeavours.

 

[czechmate7]

Czechmate7: First of all, I don't know why my post seemed to ignite such an incendiary response from you.

I am not saying that the bus driver hurt Maura, I am only looking at ALL of the possibilities in this bizarre case.

In fact, I lean toward Maura definitely having left on her own for an unknown time period and that she either is alive and well or was possibly abducted or hurt by someone other than Atwood.

However, it is my right, just as much as it is yours, to ask questions and debate this case. If I helped someone and they ended up dead, and I was the last known person to see them, I would want to help as much as I could.

Can anyone say with 100% certainty that the bus driver did NOT harm Maura?

If so, I will not mention the idea again.

However, I prefer to look at the FACTS of this case and I would like to see it solved however it may turn out.
You seem to be unwilling to look at anything but your own theory.

Try thinking outside the box...and lighten up while you're at it!

I'm sorry if my response seemed so harsh, it must have been my hormone inbalance (I'm better now!!).

I just feel sorry that the SBD is getting such a bad wrap when it is apparent that *at least that particular night* Maura was intent on getting away.

You are correct though...no one can say with 100% certainty really anything that may or may not have happened with this case.

Sorry again for my harshness.

 

[docwho3]

. . .on the Doe Network and I was amazed at the number of people who have been "missing" for years, some from the mid 1970's, 1980 and 1990 who have been found alive and well.

For example:

John Casby
John Casby had been missing since October 23, 1995 from Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. He was located safe in June 2005.

Rosaynna Lurlene Crowder
Rosaynna Crowder was found safe in 2001. She had been missing since January 1991 from Las Vegas, Nevada.

Laurie Davern
Laurie Davern was found safe in 2003. She had been missing since April 9, 1976 from Grand Island, Erie County, New York. She was a teenager when she went missing.

Ethel May Yates Harms
Ethel Harms had been missing from Colorado since 1956 and was located in August of 2005.

Jennifer Leigh Herrmann
Herrmann was last seen when she ran away from her Tennessee home in 1992. She has been safely located.

Brian Neil Hooks
Brian Hooks was last seen in September 24, 1988 in Florence, South Carolina. He was located safe in 2000 by the Knox County Sheriff's Office in Tennessee.

Larry James
Larry James was missing since 1979 from St. Anthony, Minnesota. Due to the efforts of the members of the Doe Network, James was located safe in May 2004, living in another state

Catherine Ann Mattingly
Mattingly was last seen on November 2, 1987 in Clarksville, Tennessee.
In December of 2004, seventeen years after she went missing, Catherine saw her case on The Doe Network and contacted her family!

[size=+0]Bobbi Louaine Parker
Bobbi Parker disappeared from Granite, Oklahoma on August 30, 1994. She was located in good health in April 2005 in Texas.

[/size]
Low and behold, the "voluntary" missing people are alive and well and doing just fine without their family.

Will wonders never cease.....

That is why after two years(2), it does not seem like a long time for a "missing person" to be missing by choice.

Not a long time at all, considering some people have been missing and located in good health after 10 years, 15 years, etc.

I again have no doubt that Maura is going to be one of those people in the years to come who will be found alive and well and loving life.

I again have no doubt that Maura is a smart, resourcefull person, who has succeeded at everything she has done and will continue to succeed in all of her future endeavours.

Wow! What a wonderful post. That is quite an amazing list of willfully missing people! May I copy and use the list in other posts sometimes as the need arises? (I could always post a line crediting you for original post of the info.)

I have recently begun compiling a list of willfully missing people just from the websleuths listings of cases but it is more recent and so is not nearly so impressive as to lengths of time that people were "lost" before being found safe and in my list I was primarily looking for those cases where the family always said the missing person "would never do that."

In cases where there is no evidence of foul play we should all take hope from such a list.

 

[CyberLaw]

Thanks Doc, please feel free to use the portion of my post that you may require. Since this information was gained from the Doe Network, it is public, but thank your for your offer of credit in future postings.......

I wanted to point out that just because the "family" thinks that their loved one is a victim of foul play and they "would never ditch them" or they would call after a few weeks, just does not play out in reality.

LE knows this, that is why when a person is obviously missing and all indicators point to a voluntarly missing person, LE's job is not to spend the next 10, 15, 20 years finding them. After all a person can go missing for 10, 15, 20 years and not be found by anyone.........and living a happy life.

 

[nhjane]

I hope with all my heart that Maura has voluntarily found herself a new life somewhere because the alternatives are much more difficult to contemplate.

However, it seems likely to me that if LE has spent thousands of hours investigating this case and have documents numbering somewhere around 2500 pages as has been reported, that there must be more to the story than us amateurs here on these boards can comprehend.

Also given the fact that the team of 12 private detectives (most former LE) have found enough merit in the mysteries and discrepancies in this case to take it on reinforces my opinion that there is more to this case than meets the eye.

My hope is that LE continues their investigation and can provide some kind of answer to the family so that they don't have to live through the daily hell of wondering what became of Maura.

 

[Peabody]

LE's job is not to spend the next 10, 15, 20 years finding them. After all a person can go missing for 10, 15, 20 years and not be found by anyone.........and living a happy life.

Brian Neil Hooks
Brian Hooks was last seen in September 24, 1988 in Florence, South Carolina. He was located safe in 2000 by the Knox County Sheriff's Office in Tennessee.

Seems that LE in the Brian Hooks case felt it was their job to continue looking ........for at least 12 years according to your stats.

That is the tragic situation for all of the missing people and their families. There is not a protocol for missing adults.

It seems to be entirely up to the "personality" of each individual law enforcement agency.

Consider that in the Brooke Wilberger case, a LE official in New Mexico saw an outstanding warrant for the suspect due to a failed appearance in Corvallis OR. He didn't call Corvallis regarding Brooke's missing, he called about any unsolved or attempted rapes.

At least ONE officer there cared enough to investigate and make the connection that the suspect had missed his court date on the day that Brooke went missing. Had he/she simply dismissed the NM officer's concern with "we have no unsolved rape or attempted rape cases" (which there are none) most likely there would be no suspect being held in the Brooke Wilburger case.

..............and for those who find it a stretch to imagine that some evil person happened upon Maura in the *night* while she was *alone* in a *sparsely* populated area, just imagine the nerve it took to abduct Brooke in broad daylight, around noon, working in the parking lot of an apartment complex. IF someone is determined to do evil, they will make/find the opportunity.

.........fearing that Maura has been harmed - praying that she is alive and well.


My apologies for all of the bold print - regardless of what I tried, could not get it removed:waitasec:

 

[docwho3]

. . .My hope is that LE continues their investigation and can provide some kind of answer to the family so that they don't have to live through the daily hell of wondering what became of Maura.

I too feel for the family and also for Maura since she must have felt bad to want to leave those who gave her birth and raised her.

However, if L.E. finds Maura but Maura chooses to keep her life private from the family and not have any contact them then the family may not feel they are any better off than before and in fact may feel worse.

My hope is that if Maura is a runaway, as she appears to be, that at some future time she and her family may have a sort of healing that brings them some measure of good to replace some of the past pain.

 

[nhjane]

"Quote"
That is the tragic situation for all of the missing people and their families. There is not a protocol for missing adults.

It seems to be entirely up to the "personality" of each individual law enforcement agency.
"Quote"

I couldn't agree more, Peabody. The ineffectness of the different protocols in LE's handling of Missing adults certainly seems to cloud the waters.

If personality is a factor in the way LE examines a missing persons case, we here in NH could really be in trouble.
I found the "personality" of Lt. Scarinza of the NHSP as demonstrated on the 20/20 program featuring Maura to be cold, uncaring and dismissive. Did I really see him roll his eyes on national television? Shame on you Lt. Sarinza! The way he came across on the show made me cringe, especially in comparison to the LE spokesman for Brooke's case in Oregon who seemed caring and compassionate.

 

[Peabody]

"Quote"
That is the tragic situation for all of the missing people and their families. There is not a protocol for missing adults.

It seems to be entirely up to the "personality" of each individual law enforcement agency.
"Quote"

I couldn't agree more, Peabody. The ineffectness of the different protocols in LE's handling of Missing adults certainly seems to cloud the waters.

If personality is a factor in the way LE examines a missing persons case, we here in NH could really be in trouble.
I found the "personality" of Lt. Scarinza of the NHSP as demonstrated on the 20/20 program featuring Maura to be cold, uncaring and dismissive. Did I really see him roll his eyes on national television? Shame on you Lt. Sarinza! The way he came across on the show made me cringe, especially in comparison to the LE spokesman for Brooke's case in Oregon who seemed caring and compassionate.

There was a definite contrast demonstrated between the two officials in charge of Brooke's and Maura's cases.

And yes, it appeared to me that Lt. Scarinza "rolled his eyes".

I know for certain that the Murray Family has been approached about a "boycott campaign" against the tourist trade in NH and they adamantly REFUSE to support it because they do not want to HURT anyone. They are well aware that the majority of NH residents make a living or are in some way connected with the tourist trade.

What also struck me besides Lt. Scarinza's "cold" demeanor was his remark about "people coming to this area to ........ah hmmmm... harm themselves". I felt this surely could not have gone over well with the tourist organizations in the area. I know I would not want to frequent an area where the head of the State Police of the area acknowledges it is a place where disturbed people to go to do themselves harm.

 

[nhjane]

Yes I agree, LT. Scarinza sure didn't make New Hampshire seem very appealing to anyone with that comment about people coming here to harm themselves. He also did NOT say that is what Maura did, he said there have been cases. IMO it was attempt to gain support for his "suicide" theory by implying that is what she did. I'd like to think he was so mute about his theories because he knows a lot that the rest of us don't, but it's tough. Since in live here in the North Country, I can tell you that there has been talk for many years about the town of Haverhill ... it has been refered to as "New Hampshire's Real Peyton Place" by many folks and I have heard many horror stories about police ineptitude and general town corruption. I'm not stating any of this as fact, I'm simply saying that the Haverhill- Wodsville area has had a bad reputation, rightly or wrongly.

 

[Peabody]

Yes I agree, LT. Scarinza sure didn't make New Hampshire seem very appealing to anyone with that comment about people coming here to harm themselves. He also did NOT say that is what Maura did, he said there have been cases. IMO it was attempt to gain support for his "suicide" theory by implying that is what she did. I'd like to think he was so mute about his theories because he knows a lot that the rest of us don't, but it's tough. Since in live here in the North Country, I can tell you that there has been talk for many years about the town of Haverhill ... it has been refered to as "New Hampshire's Peyton Place" by many folks and I have heard many horror stories about police ineptitude and general town corruption. I'm not stating any of this as fact, I'm simply saying that the Haverhill- Wodsville area has had a bad reputation, rightly or wrongly.

Sorry, I did not mean to infer that Scarinza SAID Maura had committed suicide. I was only referencing the harm, that in my opionion, his remarks have created for the North Country and its tourist trade.

Of course when you say you cringed, I feel fairly confident that the majority consensus was the same as yours: Lt. Scarinza is cold and uncaring.

I for one could care less about his personality, his demeanor and how cold and uncaring he is (if that is the case) as long as he is doing his job.

Lets do hope that you are correct and that he knows more than he is sharing!


.

 

[Tristan]

Why won't the police realease ANY information about Maura's case?

What is the harm in letting her immediate family know some info after 2 years?

Another important point is: It is confirmed that the scent dogs lost Maura's scent about 300 yards away. Doesn't that essentially confirm that Maura must have gotten into a car at that point?

Anyone?

P.S. To Czechmate.....thank you for your apology. I, too, am sorry if I came off as a bit surly.

 

[CyberLaw]

I guess it depends on how many "real criminal" cases the Police have on their agenda. Voluntary missing people are not a high priority except to the family of the missing person.

You see LE enforces the law, they again are not the "voluntary missing person police" as being a missing person is not against the law. That is why missing people when found are not thrown in jail, in handcuffs, charged with a crime. That is why, if and when found, no personal information is released unless they have the permission of the missing person.

The DOE NETWORK works wonders in finding missing people. But I did not see Maura's name on it.

Why bother, after all as far as her Father is concerned she is dead and gone and only her body is yet to be discovered.

People do have the utmost pity for Fred Murray as he could not control LE, nor the Judge, nor the outcome of a case. he cannot force a "strangers" to do what he wants.

He cannot "dictate" to LE what they should or should not be doing. He is utterly helpless, and I am sure considering his "controlling" nature that this is very frustrating.

He has repeated to everyone who will listen that Maura is dead, that she is gone.

Heck I am surprised that he has not had a memorial service for her yet.

Again, untill and unless there is evidence of a crime, then this was and still is a "voluntary" missing person case.

Again, Maura broke no laws. Maura did what she wanted to do with her life. Maura voluntarly went missing, and can stay missing for as long as she wants. Let me repeat that, Maura can stay missing and not contact her family for as long as she wants.

The only thing that LE has to say to the family is when Maura is found, that the case has been resolved and closed and no further investigation would be apparent.

BTW Corvallis has a population of 50,000(2000) and rural New Hampshire may, in the best case have 3 cars going by on the night Maura went missing.

Corvallis has a higher rate of crime then the national stats.....

The Corvalis rate of crime is 4164.4 per 100K people, while the national average is 3982.6.

New Hampshire is number 4 in the rate of violent crime and Oregon is 16.

So look at stats before you make a "sweeping" generalization of the comparison between the two cases.

Brooke was in a city that had a higher then average rate of crime, and Maura was in a state that has a very low rate of crime.

It is an "extreme" insult to compare a case of a kidnapped murdered women to a women who voluntarly went missing by choice. Brooke did not choose to be kidnapped, Maura choose to go missing. One is by force, the other by choice.

I am disgusted that this newshow choose to make the comparison between the two, but it does show that LE does put a lot more time and resources along with the community to a women who was kidnapped by force, rather then the "apathy" of the community to a women who went missing by choice.

Wow, I wonder why there is such a difference....gee let me think now.....

 

[nhjane]

Then I'll say again, just what is it that the police are investigating to generate all these files and spending thousands of hours doing?

 

[docwho3]

None of us can speak for the police but I take note that a judge has heard the arguments on both sides more than once now and has, each time, decided to not allow the records of the maura murray case to be released.
Also the governor has refused to order the records released.
Now we can all just rush to the conclusion that the judges and the governor are all unfair and/or just nuts or we can take the court decisions as a sign that maybe some intelligent and educated people looked at the case and decided it as actually correct that the records not yet be released.

The fact is that adult people have a legal right to privacy and there is no law against an adult choosing to become a runaway. It is also standard policy and law that during ongoing investigations authorities are not required to release the documents of that investigation. None of what I am saying here is news to those who have followed the case.

We on the outside of this case do not know what L.E. knows and so we will have to accept the word of the judges that the records ought not be released at this time.

I personally wish adult runaways had to file a paper with the police to establish that they are running away and do not wish to be found. I think that might help some in these cases. But that just isn't the way it is right now.

(Edited to strike words "more than once" and "each time" from a sentence because they may be in error.)

 

[Tristan]

Can someone please answer my aforementioned question:

It has been established that the tracking dogs lost Maura's scent about
300 yards from the accident site. Doesn't that clearly and undoubtedly
indicate that Maura got into a car at that point? (Either willingly or by force)

Also, is there ANY possibility that she might have had someone "helping" her
to disappear??

 

[Peabody]

None of us can speak for the police but I take note that a judge has heard the arguments on both sides more than once now and has, each time, decided to not allow the records of the maura murray case to be released.
Also the governor has refused to order the records released.
Now we can all just rush to the conclusion that the judges and the governor are all unfair and/or just nuts or we can take the court decisions as a sign that maybe some intelligent and educated people looked at the case and decided it as actually correct that the records not yet be released.

The fact is that adult people have a legal right to privacy and there is no law against an adult choosing to become a runaway. It is also standard policy and law that during ongoing investigations authorities are not required to release the documents of that investigation. None of what I am saying here is news to those who have followed the case.

We on the outside of this case do not know what L.E. knows and so we will have to accept the word of the judges that the records ought not be released at this time.

I personally wish adult runaways had to file a paper with the police to establish that they are running away and do not wish to be found. I think that might help some in these cases. But that just isn't the way it is right now.

Doc,

Are you saying that you have knowledge that the judge has ruled on Fred Murray's appeal to the Supreme Court of NH regarding the release of the recording?

I have not had word from any family member, nor have I seen any media release information regarding this ruling. I am most interested to know when "a judge has heard the arguments on both sides more than once now and has, each time, decided to not allow the records of the maura murray case to be released."

By the way, the Governor did not refuse to release the case files. Also, in NH, the Governor has very little power and does not have the authority to order the files released EVEN if he wanted.

Please note and consider: The main reason cited by the judge of the Superior Court of Grafton Co NH for not releasing Maura's case files was that to do so might jeopardize a future prosecution of a criminal IF she has been harmed.


.

 

[Peabody]

Can someone please answer my aforementioned question:

It has been established that the tracking dogs lost Maura's scent about
300 yards from the accident site. Doesn't that clearly and undoubtedly
indicate that Maura got into a car at that point? (Either willingly or by force)

Also, is there ANY possibility that she might have had someone "helping" her
to disappear??

Tristan,

Your logic that Maura got into a car either willingly or by force is well taken.

However, you have either made a typo or misread the media reports: Maura's scent vanished 100 yards from her car which was stuck in the snowbank.

.

 

[Peabody]

He has repeated to everyone who will listen that Maura is dead, that she is gone.

For some strange reason, my television audio came through loud and clear at least two times during the 20/20 Special "Vanished" which aired on March 17th featuring Brooke Wilberger and Maura Murray that all Fred Murray had left was HOPE that Maura was still alive........that his hope was all that kept him going.

Did anyone else hear this?

.