NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 4

[Tristan]

nnglas....that's a very good point.

It seemed that there were quite a few little lies told by maura.
(that she called AAA when she hadn't, family emergency, when there
wasn't one, etc.)

I think it's important to find out if her room had been packed up...and why.

I hope that someone with more knowledge of this case can answer that.

 

[nnglas]

:truce:

I just wanted to add a little bit of comment to this current conversation. Maybe CL or someone who has more legal knowledge then me can weigh in. I am a paralegal, although I do not work in criminal law. But I was wondering, when do police ever release files to regular citizens? I understand 911 tapes maybe, but actual files that are the property of LE? Maybe I am just not aware, but I just don't think I have ever heard of this in alot of cases. I mean family or no, do you think you think you can just walk into the police station and ask for investigation files? I could be wrong, I'm not sure.

But I would like to make one other observation about this case, and LE involvement. Please nobody get mad. But the dog lost her scent a few yards away, which to me would indicate that she got in a car, no tracks, no sign of a struggle, so that would indicate no foul play at that point, the phone call the next day (which the family strongly believes was from Maura), all this would mean that Maura left the accident scene. The alcohol missing, (whatever). I do agree that LE did not do all that they could that night. But again there was no signs of struggle or foul play. So what exactly is NHLE supposed to investigate? I mean the phone call alone makes me think she left the area, now I am not saying that something didn't happen after she left. But lets just say that something happened to her later, how do we know (and I think it is very likely) that something didn't happen to her somewhere else? I mean everybody is very critical of LE in NH, but (and I am just playing devil's advocate here) what evidence do we have that a crime occurred, or even that it was in NH. Maybe if there was a crime committed, perhaps it was on somebody elses turf. I still say that perhaps it should be figured out where she was going, because I think she made it, and perhaps that is where the foul play occurred.

Just my opinion

 

[hydemi]

This is mostly to Nnglas but any other new posters as well.

Maura's items on her trip were according to Sharon her usual stuff that she took on trips including the book Not Without Peril, except for the alcohol of course.

Yes, a number of lies or deceptions show up in the various events of Maura's story and they do add up--make your own determination as to why & how.

Many of her family members & friends do believe the stuff in her room was unpacked and insist she planned to return to school that week--why else take her books, make sure she was still in good standing (on scholarship) although that week was the last to withdraw from the term without penalty.

It has been asked why she needed a break if she had just returned from the vacation break between terms.

The disputed phone call to Lt R's cellphone, said to be from Red Cross and dismissed by police, occurred on Wed am 2/11/04 two days later as Lt R put his phone on the belt passing through airport security in Okla City.

There was argument yesterday on the Maura forum as to whether this call could have been made earlier and lost in cyberspace until Wed am, based on acceptance of the Rausches believing the call was from Maura but people still not wanting to accept that she could have been alive two days later.

Most on the Maura site believe she was picked up or abducted at the scene. I believe she fled on foot to avoid police and have argued this many times on the Maura site.

The search dog had little chance to do its thing properly forty eight hours later after two very windy days at a location where Atwood's schoolbus backed in and out several times per day and the dog was given a glove which Maura had not worn very much instead of say her running shoes (there is a post by Peabody about this way back in the archive).

Most agree she was headed to or toward the Bartlett area (Attitash is the resort) and she had called a condo owner named Salamone that afternoon.

I think she may have been picked up on 112 later that evening somewhere east of where the construction worker belatedly said he saw a youngster hurrying fast fitting her description (about four miles east of Swiftwater), and have a post above several days ago about what might have happened after the Wed am phone call if indeed she was suicidal (I rate this at less than a 5% possibility but this is the only thought I have on the suicide theory).

Veterans of this case know how elusive and uncertain many of the supposed details or facts really are, partly due to the delayed and cursory investigation, partly due to the usual media errors and repetitions in reporting, but mostly due to the relative scarcity of information about why in the world she suddenly took off for NH & North Country the next day after spending most of the weekend car shopping with her Dad who truly seems to have had no clue that she was on the verge of such an action.

 

[docwho3]

NNglas and Hydemi: Good work in explaining and discussing some of the things about the case.

 

[Peabody]

It was me that mentioned privacy rights of runaways and yes they do have those rights whether or not the courts refusal to release the records to Mr. Murray was, or was not, based on that consideration.

You seem to think I was giving that as the reason the courts turned him down but I was only pointing out that the runaways have a right to privacy.

No, I did not think that you were giving the privacy issues as they relate to Maura or anyother runaway as the reason that the court turned down Fred Murray's request for case records, but you do keep mentioning them. And yes, I am aware there are many individual privacy issues in the law.

However, I was pointing out the fact that the judge emphasized that the case was an "open case" and therefore to release the case files might/could "jeopardize any possible prosecution IF necessary".

Opinions, whether they are mine or yours, do not matter as to the reason the judge made his decision regarding Maura's case files. He clearly stated the reason in his legal opinion.

I was not taking issue with you then, nor now: I am merely pointing out to those who may be less familiar with the case the intelligent reasoning behind the judge's decision.

.

 

[docwho3]

May I jump in here and ask a question?

I believe I read somewhere that Maura had packed up all or most of her belongings in her dorm room.
If this is true, then that is a big red flag that she may have been contemplating suicide.
Suicidal people often "clean up" their surroundings, so that their
loved ones don't have to do it when they are already suffering from their
loss.
Coupled with the fact that she brought some very sentimental items with her on her trip, like her favorite stuffed animal from her boyfriend, jewelry etc, and the fact that she bought alcohol (liquid courage).

Also, if you factor in the (alleged) phone call to her boyfriend with muffled sobs...that would lend even more credence to the suicide theory.

In addition, law enforcement seems to feel that she very well may have been suicidal...and they may have found something which indicated that and they are not sharing it with the public.


PLEASE do not flame me if Maura simply packed her things because she was
transferring schools in the next few days.

Once again, I am only trying to explore EVERY possible angle.

You make some good points. Her packing could be taken to mean that she was planning suicide or it could also mean she was planning a move to another location. The problem is that although L.E. announced in a news report she had packed the room, we have a few posters that dispute that she had ever unpacked. I don't know of anyone who attended the same school and who saw her room in those few days who can say if it was or was not packed up. I did give L.E. the benefit of a doubt in my figuring they had enough sense to have investigated and asked some of the others in the dorm about it before making such a statement about packing up her room even to "taking pictures down off the walls."

I suppose you have read about the chapter in book "Not Without Peril" that she bookmarked in a chapter about Life and death Decisions, using a halmark card and a picture of her younger brother in a little league uniform and left in the car. The intro to that chapter is what makes me think she might actually have chosen to live and just leave and that chapter intro sort of accounts for her taking the school books with her, but I can see how someone else might read the same thing differently.

 

[docwho3]

. . .but (and I am just playing devil's advocate here) what evidence do we have that a crime occurred, or even that it was in NH. Maybe if there was a crime committed, perhaps it was on somebody elses turf. I still say that perhaps it should be figured out where she was going, because I think she made it, and perhaps that is where the foul play occurred.

Just my opinion

You have a point there too. That possibility is why I have posted in the past that those investigating where Maura might be need to unravel who might have helped her leave that night as that might help lead to info on where she went. But as long as some continue to insist there was no helper then they will never truly look for one and so won't find one.

I can't rule out foul play or accident happening when she reached her destination. The problem so far is that there is no evidence to indicate anything bad happened to Maura at all, no body, no blood no sign of a struggle so far. I would accept evidence of foul play if any ever surfaces and maybe someday such evidence will surface but for now all I can say is, in my opinion, the evidence points to her being alive and well somewhere of her own choosing.

 

[nnglas]

This is mostly to Nnglas but any other new posters as well.

Hydemi, thank you for the information, but I don't know why this post was directed at me.

I was simply saying that maybe LE in NH may not have anything to investigate. All things point to her leaving the scene in a car of her own free will. So what would LE need to investigate? I don't know, this case is truely baffling, I keep going back and forth with what I think happened. I don't however believe that Maura committed suicide. But left voluntarily or foul play? I don't know anymore.

 

[czechmate7]

I was simply saying that maybe LE in NH may not have anything to investigate. All things point to her leaving the scene in a car of her own free will. So what would LE need to investigate? I don't know, this case is truely baffling, I keep going back and forth with what I think happened. I don't however believe that Maura committed suicide. But left voluntarily or foul play? I don't know anymore.

NNglas~ I was thinking along the same lines. I don't think Maura was reported missing until two days later (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
What LE came upon that evening of the accident is someone fleeing from an accident scene involving alcohol, not a missing person.

Does anyone actually believe LE was responsible for not searching for Maura as a "missing person" on the evening of the accident?????? :waitasec:

 

[CyberLaw]

The only way to close a case is with resolution, either by finding the missing person or a criminal conviction.

Even then I really don't think the general public or relative will be privvy to the contents of a file. It is none of their concern, only LE

If there is not leads and no evidence, what exactly is LE surposed to investigate. That is common with some "cold cases" and missing person cases. Missing people who voluntarly do missing can stay missing for many, many years.

I really just don't think desipte all the hyperbole by Fred Murray that his daughter is a victim. It is difficult to be ditched and left behind, but it happens often.

I mean a recent case a girl who was reported as a runaway, then as a missing person turns up alive and well after 10 years. She left at 14 and is now 24.

Only when she was "unhappy" did she finally come forward after using a different name then her given name.

So again, I firmly and adamently believe that Maura felt trapped and decided to untrap herself and be happy on her own terms.

The Judge was correct in not releasing the requested information as the request once again does not apply to the NH "right to know".

 

[murraydwyer]

But again there was no signs of struggle or foul play. So what exactly is NHLE supposed to investigate?

Brooke's car keys and purse were in their apartment. Her car was in the lot. Her flip-flops were found, but Brooke was gone.
ABC - Missing Coeds (Link would not work)
No apparent signs of a struggle in Brooke's case either...

There was a comment about Maura not being listed on the Doe Network...

Case Criteria

All disappearance cases have been on the books for more than nine (9) years (1997 - prior). The Unidentified Victims cases are all since prior to 2004. The Doe Network does include cases of unidentified victims who were located after this time period, but death was believed to have occurred at least in 2004.

Many of the cases we feature have little evidence available. The Doe Network includes these cases regardless of the minimal clues at our disposal. For full details of our case criteria
http://www.doenetwork.org/
For Missing person cases after 1997, please visit our sister organization
North American Missing Persons Network

Maura Murray
Missing Persons Network Maura Murray Above Images: Murray, circa 2004 Vital Statistics at ... from Amherst, MA, Maura was last seen at ... locked and Maura was gone. Investigating
http://www.nampn.doenetwork.us/cases/murray_maura.html

Maura choose to go missing – Cyberlaw

This is conjecture, not a know fact. Maura appears to have chosen to go to either NH or perhaps VT...

Shamshak and his colleagues looked at the case with a fresh set of eyes. Based on their investigation, Shamshak said, "It appears, just based on what I have reviewed with the other investigators from New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont that are part of the team, that this is something beyond a mere missing persons case. Something ominous could have happened here."
http://www.abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=1734155&page=4

Mr. Shamshak is a part of a team of private detectives, most of whom have law enforcement backgrounds. Mr. Shamshak is based in MA and this group of detectives cover four states and have already interviewed many of the people with whom Maura had contact.

Maurice Godwin, a nationally recognized expert on serial killers, said last week, "In my expert opinion I believe that a local individual who has killed at least two times previously is responsible for Maura Murray's abduction and murder. Maura locked her car as if she anticipated on returning to the car once she found help. Her attack and murder was for a sexual assault and the murder was to do away with her as a witness. Yes, I believe a stranger serial killer is responsible for Maura Murray's disappearance."
Article on Brianna Maitland and Maura Murray

[Attorney General] Ayotte told The Associated Press Wednesday that she had not seen the lawsuit, which was filed last week, but that "we have shared whatever information we feel we can share without jeopardizing the investigation." She said that Maura Murray is still being treated as a missing person, but "it was a suspicious disappearance. We've treated the case very seriously." Caledonian Record

 

[czechmate7]

Maurice Godwin based this opinion on what?? That is a pretty strong accusation he's made!! To say she's been sexually assulted!! Is there some kind of evidence he's privy to that the public doesn't know about??
There must be a HUGE part of this case that I'm missing!!??

 

[Tristan]

I heard that private investigators were retained by the family.

What did they find?
What are their theories?

I would think that a PI would have more incentive to find a missing person.
(read: $$)

 

[hydemi]

There was initially a PI firm retained for a while in 2004, RC Stevens of Northampton Ma , and they did some interviewing in Ma and NH.

But the current group is more of a roundtable, a group of volunteers including retired police officers and PI's who volunteered to assist the family thanks to Helena's efforts when attending a conference held by the Mollie Bish foundation in Worcester Ma (I think) a few months ago.

I have seen hints that they agree with the family view that Maura was abducted based on their review of the case so far, but nothing else.

 

[docwho3]

Maurice Godwin based this opinion on what?? That is a pretty strong accusation he's made!! To say she's been sexually assulted!! Is there some kind of evidence he's privy to that the public doesn't know about??
There must be a HUGE part of this case that I'm missing!!??

Maybe, but that article makes it read that he is basing that all on her locking her car doors and somehow that does not seem like enough evidence of abduction to satisfy me.

 

[hydemi]

Czechmate, I share your incredulity.

Look at the guy's website and claims of being able solve cases based on some kind of method called "inferential statistics."

If transcendental meditation would find Maura I am all for it.

 

[czechmate7]

Maybe, but that article makes it read that he is basing that all on her locking her car doors and somehow that does not seem like enough evidence of abduction to satisfy me.

I was referring more to the statement of her being sexually assaulted.. I didn't think there was any evidence of foul play at the scene. How would someone come to the conclusion of a sexual assault then murder from her car door being locked?

 

[czechmate7]

Czechmate, I share your incredulity.

Look at the guy's website and claims of being able solve cases based on some kind of method called "inferential statistics."

If transcendental meditation would find Maura I am all for it.

Thanks...I think I will check this out

 

[nnglas]

Brooke's car keys and purse were in their apartment. Her car was in the lot. Her flip-flops were found, but Brooke was gone.
ABC - Missing Coeds (Link would not work)
No apparent signs of a struggle in Brooke's case either...


Ok, Im sorry I do not know all of the facts surrounding this case, but I don't think that Brooke told as many or any lies leading up to her being missing. Let us not forget all of the circumstances leading up to Maura being missing. All of the different stories, and the death of a family member, not having a roommate but saying she did, driving a car out of town that was supposedly not trustworthy enough to drive around town, the upsetting phone call or whatever while she was at work, saying it was just her "sister", when even her sister said she thinks Maura was only trying to get out of work. The 2 car accidents, the alcohol, I mean come on. I think the only thing the 2 cases have in common is that they were both college students.

Regardless, I am not trying to put any ugly light on Maura situation, but come on, anybody would have to admit, there are alot of strange circumstances around this disappearance that Maura herself clearly displayed. I am not saying that foul play didn't happen to her, but.......... there are a lot of things that need to be explained. And frankly, ripping on LE is not going to help the situation. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that they did everything they could, what I am saying is woulda, shoulda, coulda.... we can't go backwards, I think our energy is best spent on trying to figure out what can be done now to help find Maura.

 

[Tristan]

nnglas....excellent post. I agree with you that Maura CLEARLY wanted to disappear, if only for a week or so.

What transpired after her car accident is unknown, but I wonder of there is any way an independent investigator can re-investigate this case?