NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 4

[docwho3]

You are entitled to your believes/opinions... but I believe that even thinking the "outrageous" could lead to a new theory, lead or fact.

What's that saying? Something like, "When the possible doesn't fit, try the impossible?"

To me, it's better to explore any possiblity... even the "outrageous"... who knows where it will lead.

Yes, you make some good points and one person's outrageous is another person's sensible.

Besides, we haven't been discussing the possible alien abduction with Elvis as the ringleader. We have been discussing Runaway, Suicide, or Foul play with a general leaning by some of us towards runaway or suicide but always open to evidence of foul play if any surfaces.

I know that for myself I would not have emailed the reporter of the story about the bus driver being ex L.E. if I did not want to know the truth even if the truth leads somewhere I do not expect it to lead and I think most of us are that way abut it.

 

[gatetrekker44]

if when Atwood came across Maura's accident site-was he driving a personal vehicle or a school bus?

I was VERY intereseted to see all the info posted about Atwood and whether he was/wasn't former LE. Since he is the only TRULY verifiable last person to see Maura-I personaly hope that that the PI's(who are retired LE, FBI, etc)go back to the very beginning and start looking at this case with NO preconceived notions about Atwood's statement being gospel-after all, there has NEVER been a satisfactory reason given as to WHY he moved from the area soon after Maura disappeared-the move was apparently NOT planned prior to the disappearance!

I ask about the vehicle because think how easy it would be to get someone dazed from an accident onto a school bus and they would NOT be seen by others looking out their windows.

 

[czechmate7]

You are entitled to your believes/opinions... but I believe that even thinking the "outrageous" could lead to a new theory, lead or fact.

What's that saying? Something like, "When the possible doesn't fit, try the impossible?"

To me, it's better to explore any possiblity... even the "outrageous"... who knows where it will lead.

Magic~ I understand where your coming from. Sometimes it takes a group to discuss and think of different angles that can exsist when no real solution is known.
I wanted to focus on Maura's movements prior to the night she went missing. I tried to establish a timeline on the evening of her first accident but didn't have any luck determining exactly where on the route from the dorm to the hotel she had the accident. It was posted that the distance was 8 to 10 miles (or so) but the accident took place an hour after her leaving the dorm.
Earlier, I went to the forum on Maura's website. OMG...the SBD is being crucified, accusations of murder and the SBD driving by a pond.. and no one even mentions the fact that Maura displayed odd behavior prior to that evening; that there was a possiblity Maura could have chosen to leave on her own. I noticed Hydemi who post here also had a few post there and she/he was the only poster in the 3 or so pages I read that did not make any accusations....it was brutal in there...unbelievable

 

[docwho3]

if when Atwood came across Maura's accident site-was he driving a personal vehicle or a school bus?. . .

. . .He stopped the school bus by the Saturn to see if he could help. "She was still in the car," Atwood said, referring to Maura Murray. . .

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/pages/top_news/story/eac4ab9ba

Note:I added the bolding. The quoted part is found in the gray column on the right hand side of the page. I am sure you can use the news links posted earlier in the threads to read all about the whole story of Maura's disappearance.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1005656&postcount=38

Edited to add: Just to be nice I will add that I thought of the possibility that the scent may have been available if the bus door was open while he drove towards his driveway even if she was in the bus but when he wanted to back into his drive, as the news story says he did, he may have decided to close the door thus cutting off the scent. I don't handle tracking dogs so I don't know how likely a scenario that is by itself. (I still think he would know he would be the prime suspect and likely be seen in trying something like that. I just post it in interest of being fair about looking at possibilities even if I think them slim.)

 

[docwho3]

So if Maura got flirty when she drank as a news report already linked in previous posts has said then who was she seen to flirt with? I doubt someone would have said she got flirty when drinking if they had not seen her flirt with a guy. (I am leaving out same sex relationships because I have seen absolutely no news reports to indicate that sort of thing.) So I wonder, who was she seen to flirt with? Did she perhaps pick some guy to be that mysterious helper? Did she fall in love with someone new and runaway to get married rather than face her family & boyfriend and his family who had all grown so close and had all come to expect her to marry Bill? (It seems more adult and respectful for me to call him Bill instead of Billy so I hope no one minds.)

Or did the drinking & flirting just open Maura up to the fact that life is more than a grindstone for the nose. Did she decide to just take off and work on a horse ranch somewhere, marry someone or sell realestate or maybe, thinking of that call traced to the red cross card, a red cross nurse doing blood drives and disaster responses if she could fake it?

 

[nnglas]

I wanted to try to move past the bickering and add a side note about why Maura would take her school books.

My cousin is in college at UNC and we were having a discussion about how expensive her textbooks are. I suggested to her that perhaps she should sell her old ones back to the school. She informed me that the only time her college bookstore would buy back books is at the beginning of a semester and at the end of a semester.

I however did not ask her how much they actually give you for the books, so I really don't know how valuble they are after you have purchased them new.


****I am not making any suggestions, just giving out another point to discuss*****

 

[Peabody]

However, Billy and Maura were only months from being married.

If Maura had gone missing only a few months later, then Billy and Sharon would legally be considered family.

Peabody,
This is an interesting fact I haven't heard. I didn't know Maura and Billy were planning to wed months before her disappearance.
It has already been determined that Maura dealt with her problems w/o involving others..that's the way she was...what if...only speculation, Maura began to second guess getting married or decided she no longer wanted to be with Billy. Since Maura handles her issues privately this is something no one else would have known. She could have put on a front...talking about having little Billies and what not. She was 21, and she had been with Billy how long? Maybe she just decided she wanted to explore more before settling down? Things like that happen.

They were not planning on getting married months before her disappearance.

They were discussing a wedding in the fall following her disappearance: Aug Sept Oct.

They had been dating since the fall of 2001 when Maura was 19 1/2 and Billy was 21 1/2

Yes, she was 21 when she went missing, but less than 3 months from being 22 (which is why some posters say she was 22)

Anything is possible, but why would she put on a front?

With the boyfriend in OK, over 2000 miles from her, with him working 15-16 hour days (reported to me by her family), Maura in school and working 2 part time jobs, it would, seem to me, to be a very easy thing for her to easily just not keep in touch: not return phone calls and keep up the means of correspondence........Maura was just the opposite: writing almost daily; making trips to OK or to OH at every opportunity to see Billy. Trust me, I am familiar with Fort Sill OK and central OH (the Rausches are from rural central OH) and neither are places that a young person would be particularly interested in visiting more than once, and maybe not even once.

It is my understanding (and is supported by media reports) that they had volumous (sp) correspondence which was described by UMass Police as being "sappy".

Wouldn't it have been much easier for her to end this relationship just by negligence and get on with seeing other men than to pretend she cares for a man that can give her so little time (as the army permitted)? After all, they were not formally engaged which is much easier to call quits than when you have made a public commitment and have a diamond on your finger.

As a female with vivid memories of being young and in love, I just can not understand maintaining a long distant relationship and all the hassle that it surely entailed just to "put on a front".

And while I cannot say she did not want to explore more before settling down, it just seems that to run away is more than a little extreme to decide what you may want in your future with a particular young man.

 

[nnglas]

Peabody

I really think you are a good source of information regarding this case. I do think you have Maura's best intentions in mind. I am wondering what do you think happened to Maura?

 

[Peabody]

if when Atwood came across Maura's accident site-was he driving a personal vehicle or a school bus?

I was VERY intereseted to see all the info posted about Atwood and whether he was/wasn't former LE. Since he is the only TRULY verifiable last person to see Maura-I personaly hope that that the PI's(who are retired LE, FBI, etc)go back to the very beginning and start looking at this case with NO preconceived notions about Atwood's statement being gospel-after all, there has NEVER been a satisfactory reason given as to WHY he moved from the area soon after Maura disappeared-the move was apparently NOT planned prior to the disappearance!

I ask about the vehicle because think how easy it would be to get someone dazed from an accident onto a school bus and they would NOT be seen by others looking out their windows.

The family was told that Atwood was driving the school bus when he came up on Maura being stuck in the snow on the side of the road just east of the hairpin curve and just west of his home.

They were also told that he traveled in his own SUV in one direction on Rt 112 while Sgt Cecil Smith went the other direction on Rt 112. The family was told that both traveled a few miles in either direction but did not see Maura and assumed that she got into a car that was traveling with her group because this is what so many tourists in the area do.

Therefore, Atwood was in both his bus and his private vehicle.

For more details, read the case notes and time line at<modsnip - no longer a working website>

 

[czechmate7]

I wanted to try to move past the bickering and add a side note about why Maura would take her school books.

My cousin is in college at UNC and we were having a discussion about how expensive her textbooks are. I suggested to her that perhaps she should sell her old ones back to the school. She informed me that the only time her college bookstore would buy back books is at the beginning of a semester and at the end of a semester.

I however did not ask her how much they actually give you for the books, so I really don't know how valuble they are after you have purchased them new.


****I am not making any suggestions, just giving out another point to discuss*****

I am in school right now also. I can tell you from my experience that I leave my books in my car on an almost daily bases (I have a book in my car right now ). There's no rhyme or reason, sometimes I just get lazy and forget them in the car. It's not likely that Maura would had a test so early in the semester (although she could have..it isn't impossible.... but that would be another very good point to discuss...)
The comment you made about selling the books is interesting. Maura was 2 weeks into the new semester. The bookstore usually will buy books back that early into the semester.

 

[docwho3]

The family was told that Atwood was driving the school bus when he came up on Maura being stuck in the snow on the side of the road just east of the hairpin curve and just west of his home.

They were also told that he traveled in his own SUV in one direction on Rt 112 while Sgt Cecil Smith went the other direction on Rt 112. The family was told that both traveled a few miles in either direction but did not see Maura and assumed that she got into a car that was traveling with her group because this is what so many tourists in the area do.

Therefore, Atwood was in both his bus and his private vehicle.

For more details, read the case notes and time line at <modsnip - no longer a working website>

Thats an informative answer. Since the question was asked about what he was driving when he came upon the accident site I did not think to add that he switched vehicles to search. Good catch.

 

[Peabody]

Peabody

I really think you are a good source of information regarding this case. I do think you have Maura's best intentions in mind. I am wondering what do you think happened to Maura?

I really do fear that someone has harmed her.

I have no proof and I pray every single day that I am wrong.

I hope with all of my heart, and I know for certainty that her family, friends and boyfriend still have hope, that she is alive.



Because there has not been a body found, it is my opinion that she did not commit suicide or succumb to the elements. (I know of the extensive searches for her body her father and his helpers made every single weekend for a year and almost every other weekend for the second year - what else do you do? You ask every person that you can about her, you post flyers and you look for her body and as long as there is no body, you keep hope that she is alive)


So basically, that leaves me with she is a runaway or someone has harmed her.



I have to agree with Sharon Rausch when she answered Montel about how her son was doing: I think this is an exact quote (The Montel Video can be viewed on<modsnip - no longer a working website> : He takes one day at a time. He says he fears the worst and always hopes for the best.

While I am not a loved one, I have become emotionally attached. Therefore I can identify with taking one day at a time and hoping for the best while fearing I may check Maura's site and learn of my worst fears for her and all whom love her.

 

[nnglas]

Thank you for your response. I hope as you do that Maura is still alive. Maybe you can help me with a question. For some reason the missing alcohol bothers me. In either scenario it bothers me. If she left on foot and was trying to go for help, why take the alcohol? If she was kidnapped by someone, why would they take the alcohol and not the jewelry? If she voluntarily left the scene with someone, why take the alcohol? No matter what theory someone has, I can't seem to explain this part. Even if she left on her own and was running away, why take the alcohol? It just doesn't make much sense to me.

I would appreciate your opinion on this point.

 

[Peabody]

I am in school right now also. I can tell you from my experience that I leave my books in my car on an almost daily bases (I have a book in my car right now ). There's no rhyme or reason, sometimes I just get lazy and forget them in the car. It's not likely that Maura would had a test so early in the semester (although she could have..it isn't impossible.... but that would be another very good point to discuss...)
The comment you made about selling the books is interesting. Maura was 2 weeks into the new semester. The bookstore usually will buy books back that early into the semester.

Maura's father confirmed that Maura had not had her schoolbooks in her car during the prior two weeks of the semester (school had only been in session for 2 weeks).

She needed no car for nursing classes on campus. She walked.

However, she took certain books to nursing clinicals (according to the classmate that was giving her rides.)

She had ALL of her textbooks, her new notebooks for the semester and her syllabus in the car when she went missing.......this is why her family believes that she was planning on completing any school work due while she was gone. They do not dispute that Maura may have been contemplating leaving school: They, like everyone, have no idea what compelled Maura to leave UMass for a trip that based on one of her last calls was to Bartlett NH where she routinely stayed for her hiking trips in the White Mountains.

There is no factual evidence to suggest that she may have been considering leaving, but Billy and Fred both report that Maura was very upset over wrecking her father's car. She was an unusally responsible young adult and had been since a young age - this was just one of her characteristics. Therefore, they speculate that ***maybe*** this is why she took the trip: to contemplate whether or not to leave school in order to get a job to pay for any damages the insurance might refuse to pay and/or to buy her own new used car.

If the bookstore is going to buy the books back, then Maura must be in Amherst, not in another location.

 

[nnglas]

I am in school right now also. I can tell you from my experience that I leave my books in my car on an almost daily bases (I have a book in my car right now ). There's no rhyme or reason, sometimes I just get lazy and forget them in the car. It's not likely that Maura would had a test so early in the semester (although she could have..it isn't impossible.... but that would be another very good point to discuss...)
The comment you made about selling the books is interesting. Maura was 2 weeks into the new semester. The bookstore usually will buy books back that early into the semester.

I also left books in my car too. But remember Maura was reportedly not driving this car for school and work. Wonder when school was back in session? Colleges usually have a 30 day return policy, I wonder how long into the semester it was that she disappeared?

 

[nnglas]

Thank you Peabody, scratch my post asking about the semesters.

 

[czechmate7]

Thank you for your response. I hope as you do that Maura is still alive. Maybe you can help me with a question. For some reason the missing alcohol bothers me. In either scenario it bothers me. If she left on foot and was trying to go for help, why take the alcohol? If she was kidnapped by someone, why would they take the alcohol and not the jewelry? If she voluntarily left the scene with someone, why take the alcohol? No matter what theory someone has, I can't seem to explain this part. Even if she left on her own and was running away, why take the alcohol? It just doesn't make much sense to me.

I would appreciate your opinion on this point.

Maybe a scenario that Maura had a helper/friend following and she was picked up a little ways down the road? That would be the only scenerio other the ones you mentioned...

 

[Peabody]

Are you now saying that the theory that Maura was kidnapped/murdered is supported with facts?If so there are evidently more facts out there that aren't being told.

No, I am saying there are no facts to support any theory

It is my opinion that Maura being kidnapped/murdered is speculation. You keep saying that you want to make sure that everybody looks at the facts of the case, but the known facts don't really lead you in either direction. At this point, everybody is speculating. This is a discussion forum, you keep saying stick to the facts, and you just want to clarify facts, nobody is disputing the facts. But are you saying that the facts of the case as you know them could not lead anybody in another direction?

No, I am not saying the facts of the case could not lead anybody in another direction. I am being very specific WHEN a theory is posted and the poster FAILS to clarify that OFTEN the theory is based on speculation. So frequently, a post reciting a theory COMES ACROSS AS FACT because of the way it is presented. I just try to address this because there are new readers all of the time. And as I have said too many times now, it is imperiative that fact be the basis for theory.

Exactly what is the problem then when people post that maybe Maura ran away or committed suicide?

I have no problem when people post that it is a POSSIBILITY that Maura is a runaway or that she commited suicide. I have a problem when they state it as does ONE poster on this thread

Did Billy and Maura have a wedding date set?[/

They had told his family over Christmas 2003 of their impeding marriage and Billy had shown the rings that Maura had liked the most to his mother. They also told them they were planning a fall wedding because Maura would need time after graduation to complete the plans. The wedding was to be in MA, but no date had been set.

 

[czechmate7]

If the bookstore is going to buy the books back, then Maura must be in Amherst, not in another location.

That isn't entirely true....I've been in school for a while and there are book stores that are like co-ops..they will buy any book back because usually they have a big warehouse that will recyle the book back out to another one of their locations that use it.

 

[docwho3]

No, I am saying there are no facts to support any theory
. . .

There we disagree. There are facts and they do support a couple of theories they just do not conclusively and exclusively prove any one theory yet. Perhaps in time that will change.