NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 5

[Peabody]

I've been over to the Topix forum and I will attempt to summarize key pieces of information here. Please correct me and add what I miss. I still haven't read the whole thing.

Here it is: http://www.topix.com/forum/city/franconia-nh/T66DK0TLH7PP4VJ36

Background: There are a number of folks posting there that were former members of the Maura Murray Missing Forum at the (official I suppose) website. One of the private investigators from a team has posted there and has made some comments about what the team has concluded on and the makeup of the team. I can't be sure but even some of the early posters may have been members of her family - and it appeared a private investigator the family hired would read and post.

Members of Maura's family and her most intimate friends have chosen not to post on internet forums. The family and friends say that reading the forums are emotionally painful and that posting is just beyond their limits. They know that anyone experiencing the pain of a missing loved one understands.

They counted on Helena Murray, who is married to Fred Murray's cousin, and myself, a very close family friend, to try to keep the facts straight; alas, Helena, and I found that internet sleuths were convinced they knew more than we and that we had an agenda in deceiving all of you and placing our own spin on Maura's missing....NOT TRUE! So, we too have given up on any attempt at trying to keep the facts straight......Helena has been ill and I have been dealing with other family demands. Both of us along with many others work behind the scenes and support Fred in all that he undertakes in finding his beloved Maura. However, we just do not have the time nor the physical or emotional fortitude to consistently battle the outright deceptions and frequent misunderstandings that have permeated some forums, especially the Topix forum.

There has never been any private investigator hired at any time by the Murray family, and certainly Frank Kelly aka "Weeper" in his posts on both the MMM website and the Topix forum has never been paid to "side" with the Murray family nor to hide information. He has made it very clear in his postings at the MMM site and most recently on the Topix Forum that he, along with other PI's from MA VT, NH and MA work pro bono (without pay). They were not asked by the Murray family for assistance. The PI Team approached the Murrays at a fund raising event in support of the Molly Bish Foun dation. Molly Bish went missing in MA at the age of 15. Although her body was eventually found, her murderer has not. Her parents John and Magi Bish started the Molly Bish Foundation to assist in justice not only for Molly, but also for other missing persons and their families.

You can access the police report re: the accident whereby Maura's car was found at http://www.mauramurraymissing.com/Documents.html . Please note the many inconsistencies and contradictions.

What does this say? I do not know. To say would only be to speculate, and if ONE thing has hurt Maura's case it is all of the off-the-wall speculation. It does say that ***something is amiss***.

<SNIP>

I entered very late. The PI explained what his group does on Page 193. I posted some new thoughts on page 192 and reposted my earlier theory from here on page 194 and asked him if Mr. Atwood knew for certain that it was Maura at the scene of the accident by comparing his memory to a photo.

I thought it was a yes or no question that would either place Maura as a run away or a victim of Mr. Atwood.

But the answer was "Maybe" with added pieces of information. You can read what the PI said on Page 194.

In summary he said that:

1. The broken window was created inside the car
2. The hood damage indeed is not consistent with the crash
3. They ruled out accidental death and suicide.
4. All of the after-disappearance sightings have been investigated and it was a not her

I then asked when he believed that Maura's actions were no longer voluntary

He said he believes after the hood was damaged.

I don't know what evidence he based his conclusions on - I believe he is a PI and he says he speaks for the team, but the team only releases a limited amount of information - no one contradicted him.

The conclusion was that the accident was staged and another woman was probably in the car instead of Maura and talked to Mr. Atwood.

I will continue later - but you can see all of this at Topix if you like.

B F

 

[Peabody]

I believe that many sources have doubted any note was left but it certainly seems debatable.

There is also confusion about her "packed up" dorm room. It is very possible that she never unpacked from winter break. These details really just add to the mysterious and uncertain circumstances surrounding this case.

It is a FACT that Maura did not leave a note for her boyfriend in her dorm room or in any other place.

LT. Scarinza in his remarks ***First**** said there was a note and alluded to the fact that the note was a suicide note. Because UMass Police told the family they found no note and the boyfriend was in the room and found no such note, the family insisted that the content of any such note be shared with them IF such a note was in existence. AFTER ***much*** insistence that he correct this error, and the boyfriend's mother publicly stating that Lt. Scarinza was a "liar" in the Caledonian Express in July 04, Lt. Scarinza posted a press release on the internet (which has conveniently been removed for some time) saying "I meant to say that there was a note from the boyfriend to Maura." He did not address the issue of his insinuation that it was a suicide note.

The boyfriend said all along that the only notes in Maura's room were notes and letters FROM him to her that were dated over the several years during their relationship.

FYI: For those of you new to this forum, I am a close friend of the family, and have been helping them since first learning of Maura's missing.

 

[tuppence]

Why did the Murray family not hire a PI? Why did they not want to work with any of the PIs that volunteered?


:waitasec:

 

[tuppence]

Does the family have an opinion on whether the room was really packed up or had just never been unpacked? I always believed from the description that it just had never been completely unpacked.

The stuff about the Lt and his statements about the note is awful! Hard to think of a legitimate reason for him to lead people to make an early suicide assumption unless they were trying to get a suspect to relax his guard and that certainly doesn't seem like what was going on.

 

[Peabody]

Why did the Murray family not hire a PI? Why did they not want to work with any of the PIs that volunteered?


:waitasec:

They did not and do not have the money to hire a PI. This is no different from the majority of families of missing persons. PI's are most expensive. Maura is from a working class family.

Maura's family has cooperated not only with LE regarding Maura's case, but they also have coopereated and accepted the help of any PI that has offered their services.

They certainly work with the team of PI's that have volunteered. Frank Kelly, one of the members of the PI Team that works pro bono for the Molly Bish Foundation and is very active on Maura's case often posted under the alias "Weeper" on the forum that used to exist at www.mauramurraymissing.com

Frank Kelly still posts as "Weeper" on the Topix Forum:
Where is MAURA MURRAY http://www.topix.com/forum/city/franconia-nh/T66DK0TLH7PP4VJ36/p201

His most recent post is #4078 on August 15

It is copied below

Posted on Topix Forum by "Weeper"

Wheston, yes there does seem to be a discrepency between the witness statement and the police accident report. Draw your own conclussions about this and take into account the intire accident report, you may find several other problems with that. The Grafton County Dispatch log was previously posted (I believe on the MMM site) and I am not obliged to re-post it. You can find the accident report on the exsisting MMM site however, and if one looks at EVERY block, and word in the report you may be left scratching your head. Print this document out and when I say EVERY block and word, take a highlighter and highlight every part that seems odd. When you've completed this "document evaluation" in this manner, if you have more than six (6) highlighted oddities they're not there by "mistake". Note the time the report was writen and the information in this "official public document" and draw your own "reasonable" conclussions, if you will.

Sophie, please read the information provided to you before posting your questions, as Firecat pointed out. The "dog-hit" at the A-frame was stated as "possibly being minsterl secretions" from a laundry hamper (in the closet)on the second floor or any blood/human secretions from clothing "near/under" a washing machine on the first floor. The dogs hit on both locations and the carpet was removed from the first floor. We handled this material as is expected in our field and sent half to the NHSP. We never expect any return information from the LE community nor do we want it. The reasons for this have been stated earlier.

You all need to keep in mind that in the process of a criminal "on-going investigation" even "public information" can be(and often is)witheld from public scrutiny. If you can't understand the reasoning for this, take up needle-point rather than investigations. I'm not being funny about this, I mean it.

Respectfully
Weeper

 

[tuppence]

Thanks for the feedback Peabody. I misunderstood your earlier post. I realize PIs are expensive. I'm glad there are some people that have been volunteering. I have been following this case from the beginning and check back now and again to see if there are any new discoveries. I hope someday the family learns what happened.

 

[BenFranklin]

Peabody - perhaps a tool that can produce this: http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project will be helpful.

I sent an inquiry to the center for cooperative research today, I copy it below:

I hope that you could assist me in passing on some information regarding how one might start a new project at historycommons.org, or how one could start a similar site for missing persons.

I myself am buried in a very large project - writing a genealogy book and could not take on the responsibility of being a maintainer.

But I do recognize a that the tools used here would be very helpful, in my humble opinion.

My purpose is to share whatever information you might supply to some people that might be interested - and I have copied to them this message, and will copy whatever answer I receive.

One group includes individuals trying to help find Maura Murray.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maura_Murray

I am aware that Wikipedia is editable. I cannot honestly say with 100% certainty that all facts listed there are in accord with the families understanding of events that took place.

But in the case of a missing loved one, I feel that a ruled-out-as-suspect family member should have the right to be involved in the fact gathering process - but not have to carry the burden of all its weight.

In Maura's case, there are numerous forums, articles and compilations thereof; numerous theories and numerous disputes about both fact and possibility as to what happened to her accross the Internet.

None the less, all those involved have a common goal - to help find Maura Murray.

I cannot speak for anyone. But, with all of the confusion and dispute - I fear that it might become very painful and burdonsome for those most near and dear to the missing to correct every mistake, etc. especially on a topic that is constantly being discussed by participants that constantly change - all with different degrees of awareness of the facts and theories.

I would much like to humbly request from you one of the following alternatives:

1. A general topic for missing persons, subtopiced by individual.

or

2. Limited assistance in the form of information and software that can be used to create a history commons type of web site to help find missing persons.

Thank you

 

[Advocate4]

.....alas, Helena, and I found that internet sleuths were convinced they knew more than we and that we had an agenda in deceiving all of you and placing our own spin on Maura's missing....NOT TRUE! So, we too have given up on any attempt at trying to keep the facts straight......we just do not have the time nor the physical or emotional fortitude to consistently battle the outright deceptions and frequent misunderstandings that have permeated some forums, especially the Topix forum.

This is just so very understandable, that you and Helena (or anyone else in the family) can't continue to deal with the ups and downs of the forums. However, in some defense of the various forums -- and I have at least done a good bit of reading on virtually all of them connected with Maura's case -- even the misunderstandings, deceptions, occasional rudeness and so on, have kept the forums active and have kept Maura's case active on the Internet. I've been a participant in some of the Maura forums for more than 3 years, and I do believe that most of those who post sincerely care about Maura and what happened to her and are honestly trying to help. There have been quite a few posters who have gone to great lengths to do research on this or that subject connected with her case and provide information that sheds concrete light and turns questions into facts.

There are differing theories about what may have happened to Maura, including a few that I personally wouldn't like if Maura were my family member, theories that would make me uncomfortable about the discussions of them, but it is the nature of human beings and the real world that no one but God ever knows anyone else 100% through-and-through, and so even those discussions have some merit and go in some directions or may bring to light some facts that could help in one way or another to find Maura.

Because of my concern and involvement in the forums, my whole family sat down the other night and watched Maura's segment on 20/20, and now we are having round-table discussions at the dinner table about her case. This includes my parents who are in their 80's, mind you. Others of my close family members around the country know about Maura. And I'm just one person who participates in Maura's forums.

Just wanted to share this opinion in hopes the family might be able to reach a better view of the values of the forums in general. Honestly, I think they are more helpful than hurtful to Maura's case. But then again, I've been involved in all sorts of forums online for the last 15 years and have developed a thick skin that enables me to pretty much ignore the disruptive, unproductive people ("don't feed the trolls").

 

[tuppence]

I have looked through the accident report. Some initial things that don't seem to make sense.


1) report says that both airbags deployed yet the windshield was broken from the inside (appears that head hit windshield which I would think would not happen if the airbags deployed during the accident?

2) It's very hard to see how the car veered off the right edge of the road and yet hit the left side of the front of the car and not the right. Then the car was turned around facing the opposite side of the road. The drawing of how the cop decided this is what had happened is incomprehensible.

4) The hood damage is not really marked or discussed. It is hard to see how the hood ended up that way based on the accident report.

3) It says the road condition was dry but wasn't there snow/ice?

 

[shwa]

Excellent questions tuppence. I can only suggest that the road was slippery at the
temperature it was that night, if she lost control of her car.
Depending on the angle her car left the road and how deep the ditch or the level of
the ground was when her car left the road, as wel as the rate of speed she was traveling probably had something to do with the way the car ended up.

You raise a very good point about the cracked windshield.

 

[gaia227]

There has never been any private investigator hired at any time by the Murray family, and certainly Frank Kelly aka "Weeper" in his posts on both the MMM website and the Topix forum has never been paid to "side" with the Murray family nor to hide information. He has made it very clear in his postings at the MMM site and most recently on the Topix Forum that he, along with other PI's from MA VT, NH and MA work pro bono (without pay). They were not asked by the Murray family for assistance. The PI Team approached the Murrays at a fund raising event in support of the Molly Bish Foun dation. Molly Bish went missing in MA at the age of 15. Although her body was eventually found, her murderer has not. Her parents John and Magi Bish started the Molly Bish Foundation to assist in justice not only for Molly, but also for other missing persons and their families.

***.

Hi Peabody. Thank you for all of the information. I am pretty sure I am one of the posters who said something along to the lines of Fred hiring PI's. The reason I thought that was because of this statement in the southshore express article:

This A-frame home on Valley Road in Woodsville was the site of a search by private investigators in October, 2006. Cadaver dogs trained to track the fluids of decomposing bodies picked up scents in the house, according to investigators. Carpet samples from the homes were reportedly sent out for testing. No results have been released. The house is 3/4 of a mile from the scene of Maura’s accident

But after reading through the article again it's entirety I realized it never explicitly said Fred had hired these people.

So, for my part of perpetrating rumours and dis-information I apologize. I cannot even begin to imagine how frustrating it is for Maura's friends and families to deal with all the specualtion on top of the simple facts of what has happened.

 

[BenFranklin]

I just want to also apologize. I think I should take the blame on this one.

 

[bugaboo]

1) report says that both airbags deployed yet the windshield was broken from the inside (appears that head hit windshield which I would think would not happen if the airbags deployed during the accident?

The driver's side airbag very often cracks the windshield upon release. It's just the positioning of the driver's airbag that shoots it up and out, cracking the windshield. My question is why the passenger airbag went off. Does anyone know if that model/year Saturn was designed to set off both regardless of seat belt status? I thought most cars designed the passenger airbag to go off only when the seatbelt was engaged or when there was enough weight on the seat.

2) It's very hard to see how the car veered off the right edge of the road and yet hit the left side of the front of the car and not the right. Then the car was turned around facing the opposite side of the road. The drawing of how the cop decided this is what had happened is incomprehensible.

From the description and drawing, it sounds as if she was trying to turn left, but the vehicle simply slid straight, down the embankment. The front end (driver's side specifically) hit some trees, where it would have bounced backward. If the wheel was still turned to the left, where she had been steering, it could have gotten the vehicle to turn enough to make it straight in line with the road. Hard to picture, but it can happen.

4) The hood damage is not really marked or discussed. It is hard to see how the hood ended up that way based on the accident report.

The top of the second page shows the area of damage (front driver's side). With the car angled downward, it could have caught the first tree on the driver's side first, then crumpling the hood when it hit other trees. Just an idea on my part.

 

[Advocate4]

...My question is why the passenger airbag went off. Does anyone know if that model/year Saturn was designed to set off both regardless of seat belt status? I thought most cars designed the passenger airbag to go off only when the seatbelt was engaged or when there was enough weight on the seat.

This is a great question -- I really hope an answer can be provided to this!

...From the description and drawing, it sounds as if she was trying to turn left, but the vehicle simply slid straight, down the embankment.

Based on photos of the curve on 112, there isn't a "down" embankment. If the Saturn hit trees there, it would have had to jump snow and ice piled at side of the road by graders before it could possibly hit trees. Not sure how high the snow/ice piles would have been, I think I remember hearing something like 4 feet high but I can't swear to that.

 

[bugaboo]

Sorry, wasn't thinking. Hmm. If she went over the embankment of snow/ice, there would likely be scraping on the bumper and undercarriage. The pictures don't really reflect that at all. I had a Saturn. A 1993. It collected bugs and chips from rocks like crazy. If she went over/through a snowbank, there should have been more scratches on the front end.

Back to square one.

 

[GoodAim]

There were lots of other inconsistencies in the accident report. At the beginning of the report the officer, C. Smith, said she was uninjured, then twice later in terms of her condition or her injury he said "unknown". He didn't address the strange tire imprints that look like a vehicle pulled up nose-to-nose at an oblique angle. He didn't write the report for almost a week after the accident. He said the accident was reported at 7:35PM and he was dispatched at 7:30PM. It seems like the officer got some of his information from the witness, Butch A. The more you look at the report....

 

[tuppence]

The driver's side airbag very often cracks the windshield upon release. It's just the positioning of the driver's airbag that shoots it up and out, cracking the windshield. .

Interesting. Do you know if the crack pattern is typical of what is shown in this car?

 

[tuppence]

There were lots of other inconsistencies in the accident report. At the beginning of the report the officer, C. Smith, said she was uninjured, then twice later in terms of her condition or her injury he said "unknown". He didn't address the strange tire imprints that look like a vehicle pulled up nose-to-nose at an oblique angle. He didn't write the report for almost a week after the accident. He said the accident was reported at 7:35PM and he was dispatched at 7:30PM. It seems like the officer got some of his information from the witness, Butch A. The more you look at the report....

I had a very hard time understanding his drawing. Do we know that some of those prints are from a second vehicle? That would make more sense.

 

[tuppence]

This is a great question -- I really hope an answer can be provided to this!




Based on photos of the curve on 112, there isn't a "down" embankment. If the Saturn hit trees there, it would have had to jump snow and ice piled at side of the road by graders before it could possibly hit trees. Not sure how high the snow/ice piles would have been, I think I remember hearing something like 4 feet high but I can't swear to that.

Yeah - the angle of the accident just doesn't make sense to me. How could the upper part be so crumpled whole the bumper (which sticks out further) is not smashed at all. Looking at the line of trees I just can't see how she hits the left side of the car when she came off the right side of the road.

Are there any pictures of tree damage?

 

[lew657]

From what I have seen the location of the break in the windshield does not seem consistent with a head hitting. There also is no mention of DNA at the impact location- hair or skin would have been caught.

As for the airbag deploying - it is possible that when the airbag deployed the cover on the steering wheel hit the windshield and caused the break. In many cases windshields are broken from this debris - HOWEVER, the only way this could accurately be determined to be from this would be to verify the angle the steering wheel was tilted to and the trajectory the cover would have taken to impact. Without these specifics you can't determine this as the cause.

You do need to remember that the deployment of airbags is caused by a small explosion - there is a significant force to this. If you have ever been in an accident where they deployed - you felt them. Not nearly as bad as you would have felt the steering wheel but you would feel them.