NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#30

[CaseClosed]

Thank you for your question Minnie.

Frankly, I do not know.

I am disturbed that the autopsy found no cause of death, as stated by the defense.

That GBC did not make bail is not surprising, since nobody who is charged with murder ever makes bail (or extremely rarely), so to me that is not indicative of guilt. That the QPS is able to paint a bad picture of somebody is also meaningless to me - they are very good at that and can make anybody look bad if they so want, even you.

The so called blood evidence was only a luminol test. Luminol can react with many things, particularly things found in cars (eg. cleaning fluids). The defense made the point that no injuries were found on the deceased other than a chipped tooth (and who knows when it was chipped?), so to say that her blood was there in the car is far fetched.

As to the finances, I am just adding a little balance to the argument and I truly do not believe the situation was as dire as the QPS make out. I believe that the defense will tear this argument to shreds.

I am not a troll as some here have implied, who themselves are trolling with childish comments that I will choose to just ignore.

I am interested in the supposed evidence, however much of it is highly speculative and again will be torn to shreds in court. I have yet to see something that I would regard as solid.

I think its likely that GBC told a few tales to the QPS, however this also is not unusual and not necessarily indicative of guilt.

Lost more to say and I shall over the next few days

Okay, I have a question for you. If your partner was missing for 11 days and a body is found, would you submit life insurance claims the same day, before the body had been identified as being your partner? ... or would you be distraught and grieving and thinking of funeral arrangements? Would you be requesting an urgent Death Certificate to satisfy requirements of the insurance companies?

 

[Even]

I think some of the things that will clinch this case will be comparison of the txt sent by GBC compared to all the txt sent in the last year to Allison. If the awkward style is the same then I think these txt will get discounted by a jury as just being more of the same. If he didn't call her family or friends before police then I think this is significant as I can't imagine a scenario where you wouldnt do this.

If examination of the computer, mobile phones, google tracking, ISP logs does not reveal anything else suspicious, over the last year, then this goes in GBC favour.

As Allison is the victim there has been nothing negative about her anywhere, which is how it should be. Now if the police are doing their job they should be investigating her history as well, to reveal possible lines of enquiry.What is presented to the jury by both prosecution and defense could change the picture.

On the finance side they've said Superannuation and life insurance would cover debts. I know it is possible to access superannuation early in cases of financial difficulty which GBC would have known. So a bigger question is how much was just the life insurance ? If the life insurance was say only 400,000 then I can't see where the financial incentive to kill lies?

Also dumping the body 20km away, now that's a big risk. At least 40minute round trip time, 20minutes where you might be pulled over. Longer time where the children would realize you were not at home. Given that it is acreage there must be plenty places within a couple of km where it is dark enough to dump a body ?

I hadn't thought of the distinction between company and personal debt and it is true it is much easier to walk away from company debt that is unsecured. I believe if you trade whilst insolvent and rack up further debts then company officers are liable personally for that debt.

Have to say I'd love to be on a jury for this trial but suspect being a part of this forum would be enough to exclude.

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

The defense definitely said that COD was not ascertained in the autopsy.

I didn't actually say he wasn't in financial trouble, only that it was not as "dire" as painted by the QPS. My hunch is that he was in fact ready to let the business go belly up. I find it hard to believe as a motive, very hard.

God help GBC should I turn against him

For now, I will stick with "innocent until proven guilty".

But as I already posted a link to, the Defense is basing its statments on the Prosecutions case as it is presently explained... The defence would not be privy to all the information that the prosecution does yet. The Defence also stated it was not proved to be Allisons blood in the back of the car. Yet the prosecution says that it is....

I am not saying GBC is guilty either. On the basis of what has been presented so far. It is looking highly likely he is guilty. But again we don't have all the information at this stage.

 

[LightningJack]

Okay, I have a question for you. If your partner was missing for 11 days and a body is found, would you submit life insurance claims the same day, before the body had been identified as being your partner? ... or would you be distraught and grieving and thinking of funeral arrangements? Would you be requesting an urgent Death Certificate to satisfy requirements of the insurance companies?

My understanding is that was done by his financial adviser as was at least one of the calls. Allison also made at least one call.

 

[Deezee]

Keep up the posting lightning jack... !! A fresh and challenging view always makes for interesting sleuthing!


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[marlywings]

My understanding is that was done by his financial adviser as was at least one of the calls. Allison also made at least one call.

According to the police bail documents, on April 12, when Allison Baden-Clay had barely a week left to live, her husband picked up the phone in his office and dialled the company that held one of her two life insurance policies.
He asked for information on the policy but was told it could not be provided because it was not in his name, police alleged.

http://www.news.com.au/national/ger...d-in-court-claim/story-e6frfkvr-1226406037780

 

[LightningJack]

Keep up the posting lightning jack... !! A fresh and challenging view always makes for interesting sleuthing!


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Thanks. I'm off now for today, see you tomorrow.

Thank you all who have been patient.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

No offense, but if you are going to say "its been reported" with something so obscure, please provide a link.

Again, $290,000 is not a lot of money. Perhaps it was 30 years ago and perhaps it still is to a blue collar, but for this kind of business it is next to nothing.

GBC was a qualified accountant and spent a good part of his working life as one. What is GBC's PERSONAL debt? I won't believe for a moment that a qualified accountant would allow any of the above to be personal debt. You can be sure that the business was Pty Ltd, meaning that should the business go bankrupt, its essentially no skin off the nose of GBC.

Why is the guarantor in there as a debt? Its just a beat up. Yes, say "One Million Dollars" and sure, the bulk of the population (blue collar) will say "Oh my!!", so padding the figures with an extra $335K makes it look so much more disastrous.

Would GBC kill his wife because of a $290K debt? Don't be stupid, he's aleady proved that he can raise cash when he needs to. Its a QPS beat up, simple as that.

GBC's accountancy quals are as credible as his "Allison went for a walk" stories.

A post many threads ago stated that GBC never qualified as an accountant. This is also fits with his own CV on Linkedin. He has a BBus from what was the Darling Downs Institute of Advanced Education (DDIAE) in Toowoomba.

The DDIAE did not become a university until 1992. However, on Linked, GBC says that he obtained his degree from the University of Southern Queensland in 1990.

The earlier post stated that GBC's employment with KPMG ceased after 2 years because he failed an exam that was required for him to be a registered accountant. After KPMG he became a travel agent?? An unusual career move for a financial wizard.

Maybe he thinks that BBus stands for Bachelor of BuII S.it?

 

[Timmy]

According to the police bail documents, on April 12, when Allison Baden-Clay had barely a week left to live, her husband picked up the phone in his office and dialled the company that held one of her two life insurance policies.
He asked for information on the policy but was told it could not be provided because it was not in his name, police alleged.

http://www.news.com.au/national/ger...d-in-court-claim/story-e6frfkvr-1226406037780

You are GOOD!

 

[heloise]

Even from GBC's CV - presented by his barrister in court (and there is a link on here some way back) - it is clear he is most definitely NOT a "qualified" accountant, or a qualified anything. It doesn't even state that he was awarded a degree .... just that he studied - for 5 years - towards a Bachelor of Commerce at a CAE (second rung from a university, back in the day). His CV also indicates he changed jobs more frequently than most. Why? And, many real accountants - I was married to one for over 30 years - do not have a pipeline to personal financial success, or probity. I also deal with accountants, mostly, in my job.

I am a professional - with two proper university degrees and a post-graduate diploma, and a full-time job which pays higher than the average wage earner. I happen to think $290,000 is a lot of money! And, it would loom as a very significant debt if I had no source of income ..... and personal expenses of $1500+ per week (on top of the huge business expenses of rent, insurance, staff wages, etc, etc).

By anyone's perception, GBC was in dire financial circumstances .... and growing worse by the day. :twocents:

No offense, but if you are going to say "its been reported" with something so obscure, please provide a link.

Again, $290,000 is not a lot of money. Perhaps it was 30 years ago and perhaps it still is to a blue collar, but for this kind of business it is next to nothing.

GBC was a qualified accountant and spent a good part of his working life as one. What is GBC's PERSONAL debt? I won't believe for a moment that a qualified accountant would allow any of the above to be personal debt. You can be sure that the business was Pty Ltd, meaning that should the business go bankrupt, its essentially no skin off the nose of GBC.

Why is the guarantor in there as a debt? Its just a beat up. Yes, say "One Million Dollars" and sure, the bulk of the population (blue collar) will say "Oh my!!", so padding the figures with an extra $335K makes it look so much more disastrous.

Would GBC kill his wife because of a $290K debt? Don't be stupid, he's aleady proved that he can raise cash when he needs to. Its a QPS beat up, simple as that.

 

[CaseClosed]

My understanding is that was done by his financial adviser as was at least one of the calls. Allison also made at least one call.

Those were before she disappeared, but I'm asking your thoughts on the calls made by GBC the day the body was located.

 

[Deezee]

My understanding is that was done by his financial adviser as was at least one of the calls. Allison also made at least one call.

Quite often you will find that partners will start the claim process early on insurance policies due to the financial pressures of funeral costs (some insurance claims have a special release condition where you get a small portion of funds early for immediate costs (same as some superannuation funds) ... And when a partner passes the funeral costs combined with no working, or getting legal help, psychologists etc .. It doesn't take long for you to switch to survival mode and lodge a claim yourself (Or due to legal advice).


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[UnfoldingTruth]

My understanding is that was done by his financial adviser as was at least one of the calls. Allison also made at least one call.

In their court affidavit, police say Baden-Clay allegedly had his financial adviser call about Allison's life insurance policy, letting the company know there was a pending claim. He did this, police told the court, before the body had even been identified.

It was stated by Police that Mr Baden-Clay had his finacial advisor call about the life insurance.. the Financial advisor did not do it of his own accord. So whilst GBC may not have physically called the insurance company, he obviously called the finacial advisor to request he do this.

http://couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/gerard-baden-clay-conducting-ongoing-affair-at-time-of-wife-allisons-death-was-in-debt-and-had-inquired-about-her-life-insurance-police-affidavits-lodged-in-court-claim/story-e6freoof-1226405967381

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Quite often you will find that partners will start the claim process early on insurance policies due to the financial pressures of funeral costs (some insurance claims have a special release condition where you get a small portion of funds early for immediate costs (same as some superannuation funds) ... And when a partner passes the funeral costs combined with no working, or getting legal help, psychologists etc .. It doesn't take long for you to switch to survival mode and lodge a claim yourself (Or due to legal advice).


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IMO, it is unusual though to start the claim process BEFORE the body of your loved one has been identified.

 

[louisepiglet]

I don't think I would like to be on the jury, but would love to be able to watch proceedings.
There are not many unsecured loans made to companies by banks. Exposure to loss is the bottom line with Banks. You have to have an exemplary proven track record. Also, you can only gain early access to superannuation if you are in ill health or have a terminal illness. Or are behind in your mortgage and the bank has served notice on you in regards to mortgagee possession.Other than that, tough luck. And business debts are not even considered. Has to be arrears on the family home. In all cases they will only release an amount that will pay your medical expenses or clear home loan arrears. They make you jump through hoops.
I think if you're the murderer, the further away the body, the better. QPS took a long time to charge GBC. I'm sure they would have investigated every aspect of GBC and ABCs lives. They wouldn't want any surprises at trial.
All of the above is my opinion, which, when we come down to it, will have no effect on the outcome whatsoever.

 

[Deezee]

...

By anyone's perception, GBC was in dire financial circumstances .... and growing worse by the day. :twocents:

I remember seeing the breakdown of the debt... And most posters say it was 'GBC in debt'... But most of the debt looks like it could easily be in both GBC and ABCs name? Have we got anymore clarification about whos name the debt was under? Also, Does anyone know how well ABC was holding up under the pressure of this debt? She contacted her life insurance company too I believe before she passed?

I think without more information about the debt .. I don't think it's a very convincing motive for murder. IMO




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[CaseClosed]

Quite often you will find that partners will start the claim process early on insurance policies due to the financial pressures of funeral costs (some insurance claims have a special release condition where you get a small portion of funds early for immediate costs (same as some superannuation funds) ... And when a partner passes the funeral costs combined with no working, or getting legal help, psychologists etc .. It doesn't take long for you to switch to survival mode and lodge a claim yourself (Or due to legal advice).


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It may be so, but the body had not been identified as being Allison's until the following day. Highly suss IMO.

 

[BJsleuth]

Please educate yourself on "Proprietary Limited Companies". Most Australian companies are such. You are thinking of "Public Companies".

Actually, Ltd that's not entirely true. There is separation afforded to Company Directors in a Proprietary Limited Company, BUT the Separation Rule can be voided in certain situations depending on events and behaviour.

The company must pay its own debts, however there are instances where the protection and separation the Pty Ltd provides may be lost and this in turn would expose the directors personal finances. These include;

1) Insolvent Trading - Section 60- Anyone who instructs or directs Directors may be deemed to be a director themselves and could also be personally liable for debts incurred by the company if it trades while insolvent.

2) Personal Guarantees - Security taken after a company is insolvent may be invalid, unless new monies are advanced.

3) Director Penalty Notices - Section 222 Of the Income Tax Assessment Act- A director may be held personally liable for unpaid taxes.

In any of theses cases the debt becomes personal debt of the director.

 

[Deezee]

... Also, you can only gain early access to superannuation if you are in ill health or have a terminal illness. Or are behind in your mortgage and the bank has served notice on you in regards to mortgagee possession.Other than that, tough luck. And business debts are not even considered. Has to be arrears on the family home. In all cases they will only release an amount that will pay your medical expenses or clear home loan arrears. They make you jump through hoops..

there are numerous conditions of relase of super in aus. In addition to permanent incapacity and death which u mentioned... There is compassionate grounds which basically is a customer writing declaration to a regulated govt body about how much $ they need for compassionate reasosns (up to 10k gross per year)... The decision is sent to the suoerfund and they pay it. And financial hardship... Basically means you cannot meet immediate expenses (not just mortage) but need to be on centerline benefits etc.

And normally it's just a piece of paper or form... Not very hoop-like.

There are other conditions which I don't think are in scope of this conversation (and work has finished for the day!!)


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[Strangeworld]

Quite often you will find that partners will start the claim process early on insurance policies due to the financial pressures of funeral costs (some insurance claims have a special release condition where you get a small portion of funds early for immediate costs (same as some superannuation funds) ... And when a partner passes the funeral costs combined with no working, or getting legal help, psychologists etc .. It doesn't take long for you to switch to survival mode and lodge a claim yourself (Or due to legal advice).


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Good point re lodging a claim early regarding funeral expenses etc. However...
this was done BEFORE it was confirmed it was Allison's body. That is fact. What made him think it was her body that had been found? I have not yet heard a good argument to suggest this could be explained by anything other than him knowing that it was her body due to his involvement.