No English Required

[Nova]

bravo penelope!! and my grandfather came from germany, and learned english all by himself- as have so many others.
i would never expect to move to another country and not be expected to speak their main language.

btw... if we call those who have a healthy sense of outsiders 'xenophobic'-- then what do you call people who come to the US, live here, hang up flags from their home country (but NOT the US flag along with it), reject the culture, and are "exclusive" to the society in which they now live? is there a word for that? just curious.

Yes, there are words for that: unusual and rare.

 

[Penelope631]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)

xen·o·pho·bi·a /[zen-uh-foh-bee-uh, zee-nuh-] –noun

an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

[Origin: 1900–05; xeno- + -phobia]

—Related forms

xen·o·pho·bic, adjective

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - xen·o·phobe (zěn'ə-fōb', zē'nə-)

n. A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

xen'o·pho'bi·a n., xen'o·pho'bic adj.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

xenophobic adjective
suffering from xenophobia; having abnormal fear or hatred of the strange or foreign



I wouldn't call this a "healthy sense of outsiders", hon...

Oh, and reb, most Americans are so spoiled, including young high school-aged kids, that they will not do any of the jobs you see recent immigrants doing...

It is a myth that recent immigrants cleaning public toilets, roofing in subzero termperatures, scrubbing floors and cleaning up human and animal are taking away "plum" jobs away from other Americans...puhleeze...another neocon myth...

Well lets see here now..I applied for a job at the airport to be a screener which is something I think I would enjoy doing..I was told that I didnt have enough security experience..ok then..but you go to the airport and who are the screeners? FOREIGNERS..so I started asking questiones during my travels what kind of training they needed to become a screener..they all said NOTHING.. They didnt have to have ANY security expierence..

I dont see anyone on here stating that they HATE or FEAR foreigners so why use this scenario?

 

[windovervocalcords]

Yes, there are words for that: unusual and rare.

What do you call the people in the south who still put up a confederate flag? Why would Mr Cheesesteak from Phillie have one on his motorcycle parked in front of his restaurant?

 

[Penelope631]

...who tutors math. He was born in Mexico, and came to the US when he was 10 or so. He speaks three languages fluently, is a retired mechanical engineer and an ex-Marine, with a Master's degree in mechanical engineering, and now spends 20+ hours a week tutoring elementary school kids in math for free. I don't know what cartoon stereotypes you people are tuning into, but this is the Mexican grandpa in my world...

Why do you continue to insult us in your post?

Please come to our world and you will see differently..

 

[windovervocalcords]

Why do you continue to insult us in your post?

Please come to our world and you will see differently..

Who are the us? What is the insult? Where is your wolrd?

 

[Penelope631]

Who are the us? What is the insult? Where is your wolrd?

from your post I can see you are not one of the US nor do you live in Our world..so you wouldnt see the insult in talking down to US who disagree with Cap..

 

[2sisters]

Who are the us? What is the insult? Where is your wolrd?

I think she feels like Cappucina is talking down to everyone here a little and sorry cap, I have to agree.

 

[windovervocalcords]

from your post I can see you are not one of the US nor do you live in Our world..so you wouldnt see the insult in talking down to US who disagree with Cap..

No offense by my question. I am in the same world (earth, north america) you are last time I checked. Why put us in different worlds? How does that further the discussion?

 

[Pepper]

Pepper, I agree with your last statement, but I think you underestimate the time needed to become fluent. Yes, I too have traveled in Europe and spoke French and (particularly) Spanish as needed. But I wasn't a security worker and we can't poll the native to whom I spoke and ask whether my language skills were adequate for THEIR needs. The same is true of your sojourn in Germany.

Historically, the pattern is as it is with my in-laws. The first generation does the best it can, the second is fluent with an accent, and the third speaks English, usually exclusively.

If your relatives were different, good on them. Maybe they were exceptional, but how much education did they have BEFORE they arrived? Many people in Norway and Germany learn English in school.

Again, I'm not saying immigrants don't have to try. I'm saying that when others complain about their lack of fluency, they ought to consider the difficulty of the task.

I don't disagre with anything you are saying. But I will say that if someone is planning to immigrate here, they should learn passable English skills before they move here. After all, if they come here LEGALLY, they have 1-5 years before their papers are approved and their travel plans firmed up. If they come illegally or overstay their visas, then I have no sympathy. Send 'em home.

ETA: http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_immigrants_economy.html

This an other articles by Steven Malanga echo my sentiments. This is a long article, but compares todays immigration problems in comparison to the "great migration" when most of our ancestors arrived. Fascinating, and historically correct as far as I can tell.

 

[windovervocalcords]

I don't disagre with anything you are saying. But I will say that if someone is planning to immigrate here, they should learn passable English skills before they move here. After all, if they come here LEGALLY, they have 1-5 years before their papers are approved and their travel plans firmed up. If they come illegally or overstay their visas, then I have no sympathy. Send 'em home.

ETA: http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_immigrants_economy.html

This an other articles by Steven Malanga echo my sentiments. This is a long article, but compares todays immigration problems in comparison to the "great migration" when most of our ancestors arrived. Fascinating, and historically correct as far as I can tell.

Wow.

You want to change the immigration law to make it a requirement that someone have passable english BEFORE they move here?

 

[Details]

...studies done by prestigious universities and research orgs....

As they say in Wisconsin..."Yah, sure, YouBetcha!:

I'll take your musings over the US Census, US SSA, Brookings Institution, National Academy of Science, CLMS at Northeastern U, Federal Reserve, Cato Institute, Urban Institute, AILA, and Inter-American Development Bank's data any day... :doh: :dance:

Statistics can lie - and when a bunch of sources are used, I'm always suspicious - do they use the number of illegal immigrants (for instance), from the study with the lowest number, then the estimate of taxes paid by illegal immigrants from the study with the highest number? Statistics can be used to lie very easily.

Not that I found the stat that 25% of immigrants (they aren't specifying legal or illegal there - not sure if we're talking about both or not) still don't know English after 10 full years here! That's not a good stat, that's a very bad stat.

 

[czechmate7]

This all reminds me of a few years back when there were protest in S.Florida about high school students having to pass the FCAT's to graduate high school in English when I believe more than 1/2 used English as a 2nd language. Of course, IMO, if you're graduating high school, you should already be taking all the test, getting lectures, etc... in English, right??
Then, there was a case in Alabama where someone was suing to be able to take the drivers test in Spanish.
I lived in Houston for 2 years and my daughters class was about 75% hispanic. Don't you know there were protest in the Houston Independant School District to have everything taught in English and Spanish and also have all notes sent home in both languages also...a protest!!
I feel for people who come to our country to better themselves and can't communicate. But when they are here and start demanding things done to suit their language and threaten lawsuits that is where the iron fist needs to be put down

 

[2sisters]

I think no matter where you fall on this issue, you have to agree that it is beyond frustratinh to go somewhere and not understand the cashier or to be working and not understand your patrons. For example. i used to be a hairstylist at a chain salon. On the weekends, alot of mexican men would come in and could not even be able to tell you how to cut their hair. They would get mad at the girl cutting their hair that couldn't understand the spanish version of their haircut. Some would just bring a picture and the ones we didn't understand we just did a basic number 2 fade. Sometimes they got mad and started screaming in spanish, other times they left happy and would point at who cut their hair last time so they could cut their hair again. Honsetly, I am not sure if many can even read or write( judging by how they would sign in on the sign in sheet at the salon), so getting them to speak english might me a giant feat. Can you imagine though how frustrating that situation is for everyone invovled?

ETA: the happy ones were suprisingly good tippers.

 

[Details]

...who tutors math. He was born in Mexico, and came to the US when he was 10 or so. He speaks three languages fluently, is a retired mechanical engineer and an ex-Marine, with a Master's degree in mechanical engineering, and now spends 20+ hours a week tutoring elementary school kids in math for free. I don't know what cartoon stereotypes you people are tuning into, but this is the Mexican grandpa in my world...

Real life? Haven't you noticed yet? Our lying eyes do see people like your Mexican grandpa - and they aren't the problem, nor is anyone objecting to them - it's the other people that we are describing - that we too have actually met.

I'm not tuning into any cartoons (you shouldn't go into personal attacks just because people disagree with you), I'm talking about what I know, and statistics I too have read from extremely liberal newspapers, such as the LA Times, facts that are not mentioned by pro-immigration sources.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Speedy Gonzales, in the event your parents kept you locked in the bathroom throughout your childhood, is a cartoon character who is depicted as a Mexican mouse, complete with sombrero, white pajamas and a Mexican accent, and the ability to run really, really fast.

Speedy's opposite, Slowpoke Rodriguez, who's as slow as Speedy is quick—was offensive to Hispanics.
http://www.vdare.com/francis/hispanic_race.htm

 

[Details]

Its a myth that people are sitting around ARROGANTLY refusing to learn english.

WOVC - it is not a myth. How many people have to report meeting and knowing these 'mytical' people for you to recognize they exist? We can disagree about how many, but they do exist. Just as multilingual, hardworking, ex-military, intelligent, wonderful Mexican grandfathers exist, so do people who arrogantly refuse to learn English, refuse to serve an English speaking person, or for whatever other reason (it is illogical, you make a bunch more money if you speak English - but still, they don't) choose not to learn English.

 

[windovervocalcords]

WOVC - it is not a myth. How many people have to report meeting and knowing these 'mytical' people for you to recognize they exist? We can disagree about how many, but they do exist. Just as multilingual, hardworking, ex-military, intelligent, wonderful Mexican grandfathers exist, so do people who arrogantly refuse to learn English, refuse to serve an English speaking person, or for whatever other reason (it is illogical, you make a bunch more money if you speak English - but still, they don't) choose not to learn English.

All you have is antidotes, no data to back up that claim.

 

[Penelope631]

I lived in the MidWest for 11 years..My Ex was from German decent..His parents, My inlaws thought I was a dirty Mexican..and a bad person all together because I am Catholic.. :slap:

 

[Details]

Wow.

You want to change the immigration law to make it a requirement that someone have passable english BEFORE they move here?

Hmm - if they are taking 1-5 years to move here - why not? Not that she said anything about changing laws or whatever, but if you were moving to, for example, Germany, to live, wouldn't you work on learning German before you went? Would you really spend your time until you moved not ever trying to learn the language of the people you were going to live with? Immigrate to Zimbabwe without starting to learn their language, just expect them to know English to talk to you?

Wow.

 

[Penelope631]

Data dosent prove anything..Data can be fixed to reflect what one wants to project. I live the life of a minority daily..I see the world through my eyes and ears..I dont need no stinkin Data to tell me I am wrong when i see and know I am right..