No intruder?

[BBB167893]

HOTYH,

If it was that simple, why did PR have to lie? Why lie at all if you are Innocent? Whether or not LE lied, why did PR?

The question IDI can never answer, Agatha.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Correct.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

HOTYH,

If it was that simple, why did PR have to lie? Why lie at all if you are Innocent? Whether or not LE lied, why did PR?

Lie about what?

 

[joeskidbeck]

Actually if you believe they were lying (and I do not), please explain why Patsy fell right into it? Also, how could they lie about something they had no idea even existed? There is the question, HOTYH. The size 12/14 panties were not found in the house and Patsy sent them in years later so how do you explain LE even knowing about them unless JonBenet was wearing them? I'm sorry, LE may lie to get a confession, but they weren't lying this time.

 

[BBB167893]

Correct.

Despite everything else, HOTYH, it's nice to see that you know I mean what I say.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Actually if you believe they were lying (and I do not), please explain why Patsy fell right into it? Also, how could they lie about something they had no idea even existed? There is the question, HOTYH. The size 12/14 panties were not found in the house and Patsy sent them in years later so how do you explain LE even knowing about them unless JonBenet was wearing them? I'm sorry, LE may lie to get a confession, but they weren't lying this time.

Maybe you didn't bother to read my post. I'm saying LE found oversize underwear in a drawer and decided that was inappropriate clothing for JBR to have, right? Then they CLAIMED thats the underwear she was wearing when she was murdered, to bring the family into complicity in the crime. Just like the fiber lies, to bring the family into complicity. They even asked PR if she'd seen the photos so they would know if they could lie about that.

JBR was probably not wearing oversize underwear because the coroner would have noted the peculiarity first, before noting the word KOREA on the paintbrush. This indicates they lied to her.

21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.

1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.

The fact that fiber testimony cant be corroborated by expert testimony or report can be construed as more lying by interrogators, to garner testimony. Its very common for interrogators to lie.

 

[Agatha_C]

Actually if you believe they were lying (and I do not), please explain why Patsy fell right into it? Also, how could they lie about something they had no idea even existed? There is the question, HOTYH. The size 12/14 panties were not found in the house and Patsy sent them in years later so how do you explain LE even knowing about them unless JonBenet was wearing them? I'm sorry, LE may lie to get a confession, but they weren't lying this time.

I agree Beck, LE wasnt lying. In fact, they only asked if she had seen the pictures after the questions had been asked, so they didnt know if she had seen them or not. PR clearly lied, what woman of her age does not look at pantie size? What grown up period? I mean, do you just grab and shoot for the moon (sometime literally, if thats how you buy undies).

PR said she changed JBs clothes for bed and she didnt notice the big Bloomies (bloomers at this point)?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I agree Beck, LE wasnt lying. In fact, they only asked if she had seen the pictures after the questions had been asked, so they didnt know if she had seen them or not. PR clearly lied, what woman of her age does not look at pantie size? What grown up period? I mean, do you just grab and shoot for the moon (sometime literally, if thats how you buy undies).

PR said she changed JBs clothes for bed and she didnt notice the big Bloomies (bloomers at this point)?

Nah, I cant even find where LE claimed she was found in oversize underwear. Only that she owned them. Why else would they want to know if PR knew about what the crime scene photo? Why didnt they have it there to show it to her?

Because they were interrogating a suspect, not looking for help investigating a murder.

 

[Agatha_C]

Nah, I cant even find where LE claimed she was found in oversize underwear. Only that she owned them. Why else would they want to know if PR knew about what the crime scene photo? Why didnt they have it there to show it to her?

Because they were interrogating a suspect, not looking for help investigating a murder.

If PR herself says that years later she turned in an open package of size 12/14 bloomies with the Wed. pair missing, why are you arguing the point....

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

If PR herself says that years later she turned in an open package of size 12/14 bloomies with the Wed. pair missing, why are you arguing the point....

A missing pair of underwear means what? Lets see that crime scene photo that shows the oversize underwear. Then I'm a believer in oversize underwear. Until then I'm believing the coroner would've noted it.

Remember the coroner notes Wednesday underwear and KOREA paintbrush, right? Why would he not make note of the peculiar non-fitting underwear? This is the question.

I believe there were Wednesday underwear in her size too, right? Pardon me but I'm not a big expert on the underwear issue. I just think its peculiar omission from the coroner's report thats all. And its a little wierd I can't find anything that explicitly states JBR was found in oversize underwear, except for these posts.

 

[UKGuy]

UkGuy, I'm having trouble again understanding your shorthand.

Who is my sidekick? What is diminishing returns?

My assertion is that no oversized underwear was found on JBR. There was no comment from the Coroner that she had underwear that would have fallen off her, due to it being (as per Koldcase's picture) so large it was flogging her knees. PR has no interest in the underwear she purchased at some previous time for her niece but subsequently gave to her (strangled/bashed/sexually abused) daughter. This is because it is a trivial thing in comparison to the horror of her daughter's murder. It does not have the importance you have placed upon it, because there appears to be no evidence JBR was even wearing oversized underwear, let alone that her usual underwear (whatever size you believe that to be) was missing. The longjohns were put on her by her mother, to keep her warm, not to hide too large underwear or sexual assault!!

There is no evidence JBR was sexually assaulted PRIOR to the night of her death, so stop trying to make this into an incest related crime.

PR did not lie about the underwear. Refer to my Wicki definition. If (and this is a big IF), what she said was later contradicted, it was a normal and understandable mistake that a traumatised parent might make about an issue that had zero interest for her. And it had zero interest for her, simply because it was designed to implicate her in her daughter's murder, rather than find the person responsible. How you can assert that too large underwear would hide prior sexual assault (had it occurred), I have no idea. The fact is that the size 12 underwear, (if she was wearing them) was only 2" larger in the waist than her normal underwear (and being new, was probably no different to what she usually wore) and was definitely not hanging to her knees as RDI have tried to make us believe.

MurriFlower,

My assertion is that no oversized underwear was found on JBR.

Please offer evidence for your assertion, otherwise it is simply rhetoric. And do not trot out the absence of evidence trick.

How you can assert that too large underwear would hide prior sexual assault (had it occurred)

Do you originate from an english speaking country, is english your mother tongue? It was the longjohns that I refrred to as hiding something, e.g.

So someone redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, and the longjohns are on her to hide either/or both her sexual assault or her size-12 underwear.

JonBenet's death is a sexually motivated homicide, there is no evidence linking or matching to any intruder, and with the various lies offered up by the Ramsey's they remain the prime suspects!

What is diminishing returns?

That means it is becoming progressively and incrementally a waste of time to have any form of discussion with you.


.

 

[Agatha_C]

Until then I'm believing the coroner would've noted it.

Remember the coroner notes Wednesday underwear and KOREA paintbrush, right? Why would he not make note of the peculiar non-fitting underwear?

Pardon me but I'm not a big expert on the underwear issue.

First of all, there are reports that the ME didnt make note of several things, is it possible, the panties are just one of those things? We are also refering to the same ME, that used nail clippers on more then one body. I would say, that I doubt it was his only mistake.

As to your not being an expert on undies, do you buy pants? Because its the same principle, you find your size and you buy them. You dont just grab any pair and make do. Its common sense HOTYH...... Not rocket science

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

First of all, there are reports that the ME didnt make note of several things, is it possible, the panties are just one of those things? We are also refering to the same ME, that used nail clippers on more then one body. I would say, that I doubt it was his only mistake.

As to your not being an expert on undies, do you buy pants? Because its the same principle, you find your size and you buy them. You dont just grab any pair and make do. Its common sense HOTYH...... Not rocket science

I meant I wasnt a big expert on the JBR underwear issue. It seems to have taken on some more fiction than fact however because I'm still looking for the explicit statement made by anybody who is somebody, like the coroner or BPD detective, that JBR was actually found in oversize underwear. Got one? Heck I'm in a good mood today: if ST says oversize underwear I'll buy that.

The photo would be nice. How come we have all these other photos but not that one, huh?

 

[DeeDee249]

JB wasn't found "more warmly dressed". She was not wearing a sweater. She was wearing her white cotton Gap sweatshirt with silver star that she wore to the White's, along with her longjohns (which Patsy admitted putting on her) and regarding the panties, in the now-missing interviews from ACR, LE tells Patsy that JB was found wearing panties that were size 12-14, and that NO other panties of that size were found in the home, and that all the other panties in JB's drawer were sizes 4,6,8. Patsy then said that her usual size was 6-8 and that some of the panties in her drawer were probably too small (Patsy's words).
If anyone has this interview saved, please post it if you can.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

JB wasn't found "more warmly dressed". She was not wearing a sweater. She was wearing her white cotton Gap sweatshirt with silver star that she wore to the White's, along with her longjohns (which Patsy admitted putting on her) and regarding the panties, in the now-missing interviews from ACR, LE tells Patsy that JB was found wearing panties that were size 12-14, and that NO other panties of that size were found in the home, and that all the other panties in JB's drawer were sizes 4,6,8. Patsy then said that her usual size was 6-8 and that some of the panties in her drawer were probably too small (Patsy's words).
If anyone has this interview saved, please post it if you can.

I read the interview and assuming they weren't the standard interrogation lies (BIG assumption) I still couldn't find this explicit statement that she was found in oversize underwear. Got one?

 

[joeskidbeck]

Honestly, I don't see how they could have been any more explicit. There is no other answer except that she was wearing them. As I said before, LE didn't dream up these underwear in their imaginations. Patsy bought them and admitted to it. She also turned in the other 6 pairs several years later. That would be the size 12/14 Sunday-Tuesday and Thursday-Saturday. The Wednesday pair were found on JonBenet's body.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

JB wasn't found "more warmly dressed".

I think this is probably false because she was found, according to JR, wrapped like a papoose inside a blanket. The blanket was left in the basement.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy states that she purchased underwear from Bloomingdales
Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt

18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start
19 with what - I will make it very simple for
20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you
21 in possession of or what do you know about
22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing
23 at the time she was found murdered?
24 A. I have heard that she had on a
25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.
0078
1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?
5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many
12 trips did you make to New York?
13 A. Two, I believe.

Patsy is told that Jonbenet was discovered wearing Wednesday named underwear and as per the autopsy:
JonBenet Ramsey Autopsy Report, excerpt

No defects are identified. Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension.

Patsy states that she purchased day of the week underwear from Bloomingdales
Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt

14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is
15 your best recollection that the purchase of
16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the
17 week, was something that you bought for her,
18 whether it was just I am buying underwear
19 for my kids or these are special, here's a
20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your
21 intention that she would wear those?
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
0081
1 niece.
2 Q. Which niece was that?
3 A. Jenny Davis.
4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do
5 you remember that they come in kind of a
6 plastic see-through plastic container.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. They are rolled up?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
12 niece, and one for JonBenet?
13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or
14 two.
15 Q. Do you remember what size they
16 were?
17 A. Not exactly.
18 Q. JonBenet was found wearing the
19 Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your
20 understanding is correct, that is a fact, you
21 can accept that as a fact, when she was
22 found murdered. Those underpants do not fit
23 her. Were you aware of that?

Patsy states she placed the size-12 underwear into JonBenet's underwear drawer. This is her outright lie!
Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt

21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.
0084
1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.

In bold is where Patsy is caught out lying!
Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt

1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
22 Would that have been about the size pair of
23 panties that she wore when she was six years
24 old?
25 A. I would say more like six to
0094
1 eight. There were probably some in there
2 that were too small.
3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
4 A. Not typically, no.
5 MR. KANE: Okay.
6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you
7 understand the reason we are asking this, we
8 want to make sure that this intruder did not
9 bring these panties with him, this was
10 something --
11 A. Right.
12 Q. - that was in the house.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as
15 you know, that is something that was in this
16 house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,
19 these panties?
20 A. Correct.

So Patsy tells the interviewers she purchased the day of the week bloomingdales size-12's and placed them into JonBenet's underwear drawer. The interviewers then inform Patsy that no size-12 underwear was found in JonBenet's underwear drawer. Despite searching the house, no size-12 underwear turned up until years later when the Ramsey's found a set of size-12's in some packing crate!


.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think this is probably false because she was found, according to JR, wrapped like a papoose inside a blanket. The blanket was left in the basement.

She wasn't "dressed" in the blanket. She was placed on the blanket, which was then folded over her torso, leaving her head and legs exposed.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

She wasn't "dressed" in the blanket. She was placed on the blanket, which was then folded over her torso, leaving her head and legs exposed.

How could her legs be exposed and be wearing longjohns at the same time?