Norway Norway - Oslo, WhtFem 20-30, Fake Name, shot in hotel room, Jun'95

[Marantz4250b]

Yes, people have killed themselves in hotels. What I am getting at is the full picture. It is very odd. She at least *claimed* to be from another country. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I can't imagine going to that sort of trouble while despondent.

If she was being trafficked and controlled, why was she the one who phoned the hotel on both occasions in reference to the room reservations?

I could easily believe that someone subject to coercive or intimidating control would do that. I'd also accept that they could be left on their own for extended periods too. If she was under someone's control then that would easily explain the relative lack of clothes and money - might even explain why she was transacting cash with the guy in the lobby. The fact that she was apparently accompanied at check-in by a male who wasn't really around much afterwards would also fit. If she was being pimped then it's not entirely out the question that her pimp might have had a weapon like that. Like I've said though, these are "possibilities" but there is no actual evidence to support them, as yet.

Also, I don't think we can say with certainty that she made both calls, or even any of them. Didn't receptionists say they thought there were different accents involved?

A woman who was subject to such control may see shooting herself as the only way to escape her situation.

 

[branmuffin]

I noticed something when comparing the Isdal woman to Jennifer. The Isdal woman's check in cards, her "1"s do NOT have the same large, sloping downward tab on the left that we established as European.

Just noting here as both are thought to have likely been German, and the Isdal woman also is believed to have been raised in Belgium. For comparison:

View attachment 294771 View attachment 294772 View attachment 294773

Isdal Woman's check in cards from: Isdal Woman: The mystery death haunting Norway for 46 years

Jennifer Fairgate's from Mystery at the Oslo Plaza

It's interesting that the Isdal woman switched up the dates when writing, using day - month - year and month - day - year. Month/day/year is used almost exclusively in the US yet both passport info is European.

How Are Dates Written in Different Countries? - Translation Blog.

 

[Marantz4250b]

What is the difference between these two pistols? They are both Brownings. They look to have different barrel lengths. According to the article they may be weapons in a gun expert's private collection.

Mystery at the Oslo Plaza

I was just curious regarding statements in various accounts that JF had 34 rounds of ammo, 7 in the magazine, 25 in the briefcase and 2 expended. I've read that the magazine holds nine rounds. I checked online to find magazines for this particular weapon come in 10, 13, and 15 rounds. So if you were going to fill the smallest magazine wouldn't you put in ten? I wonder where the 10th bullet went?


Mystery at the Oslo Plaza

I'm not sure which ones you are referring to but I do recall pictures (or video from the documentary) where the collector had various high-powers out. One was fitted with a compensator which is a device fitted to the muzzle. It has holes in the top (or one single one) and vents the propellant gasses upwards in order to control muzzle climb. It's intended for Practical Pistol competitions where you are shooting rapid strings so can reacquire the target quickly.

I don't think I'd put too much meaning into how many rounds the magazines had in them, to be honest. We don't know who loaded them or when. There may have been an issue with the magazine or if she loaded it herself then she may have been unable to get more in as they tend to get stiffer to load the more put in. I'd be interested to know the head-stamps on the brass which denotes the maker. I wonder whether gun already had nine rounds in it's magazine and someone then just emptied a full 25 round box into the briefcase?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Along this same line of thought, 34 rounds seems an unusual number to have. In my experience, at least, ammo usually is sold in boxes of 20, 50, 100, 250, 1,000.... I keep wondering why it was loose like that, in the briefcase? It is a strange way, IMO, to carry ammo. And there wasn't anything found to indicate how the gun was carried, was there? I don't remember anything about a holster, for example. So, was it just thrown in with the ammo? Another thing that is weird....

I think it was just chucked into the bag with the ammo. It was a very slim bag from what I can tell so an actual commercial box might not sit well, if you see what I mean? Also, we don't know the maker of the ammo so don't know how it was originally packed. I know of a firearms dealer who lots of guys I know used to deal with extensively back in the 80's and before and he was known to sell surplus 9mm ammo by the shovel or bucket full there was that much of it around. When he had a batch surplus Carcano rifles (the type JFK was killed with) back in the day if you bought 1,000 rounds of ammo the rifle was free!

 

[Beekarina]

It's interesting that the Isdal woman switched up the dates when writing, using day - month - year and month - day - year. Month/day/year is used almost exclusively in the US yet both passport info is European.

How Are Dates Written in Different Countries? - Translation Blog.

It is. I use both, but I've spent a fair amount of time traveling and am first generation.

 

[Beekarina]

I think it was just chucked into the bag with the ammo. It was a very slim bag from what I can tell so an actual commercial box might not sit well, if you see what I mean?

Right, it probably was. It's just another thing that feels off to me. I agree it doesn't prove or disprove anything. I'm trying to get a feel for the person(s) who would do these things. They did a lot of strange things!

 

[Beekarina]

So, perhaps she (or someone else?) had acquired the weapon while she was absent from the hotel? i.e. the 20-24 hours? And the bag was hers (theirs?) prior? i.e. it wouldn't look out of place walking down the street, and could be quickly ditched if necessary vs wearing a gun.....

 

[branmuffin]

It is. I use both, but I've spent a fair amount of time traveling and am first generation.

*singing* All the boys think she's a spy - she's got Beekarina eyes

I've lived in two continents but Canada follows the European version of day/month/year. I always find it difficult to figure out if someone's birthday is June 5 or May 6. I think most countries should go to the universal year/month/day. Would get rid of a lot of confusion.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Right, it probably was. It's just another thing that feels off to me. I agree it doesn't prove or disprove anything. I'm trying to get a feel for the person(s) who would do these things. They did a lot of strange things!

I still think the most likely thing is common criminality rather than anything more "exotic". Eastern Europe at the time was busy pulling itself to pieces and weapons like this would not have been uncommon. It was a few years since the fall of the Iron Curtain and Eastern European criminals were really getting into gear at that point. The idea that she was an escort trafficked from that area is a reasonable explanation, as far as I can see. Again, that's just one suggestion but there is no actual evidence for it. There's nothing to rule it out though or make it extremely unlikely.

 

[branmuffin]

I'm not sure which ones you are referring to but I do recall pictures (or video from the documentary) where the collector had various high-powers out. One was fitted with a compensator which is a device fitted to the muzzle. It has holes in the top (or one single one) and vents the propellant gasses upwards in order to control muzzle climb. It's intended for Practical Pistol competitions where you are shooting rapid strings so can reacquire the target quickly.

I don't think I'd put too much meaning into how many rounds the magazines had in them, to be honest. We don't know who loaded them or when. There may have been an issue with the magazine or if she loaded it herself then she may have been unable to get more in as they tend to get stiffer to load the more put in. I'd be interested to know the head-stamps on the brass which denotes the maker. I wonder whether gun already had nine rounds in it's magazine and someone then just emptied a full 25 round box into the briefcase?

You don't put too much meaning into anything if it doesn't conform to your way of thinking.

What I was getting at is the two weapons I illustrated were both the same gun but the barrel was noticeably smaller in one. You'd have to click on the link I provided to see the same image. I posted it because people are saying, and rightly so, that one image provided during the investigation shows a ruler and the measurements are smaller. The only thing I can think of is that the slide is pulled back on one. And you shouldn't have to pull the slide if the gun has already shot two rounds.

Most people filling a clip for a specific magazine would put as many bullets as it allows, especially if they've got another 25 hanging around. So I'm going with the law of averages.

@GatorFL can you give us a brief lesson on the loading of pistols and chambering a round? Thanks.

 

[Marantz4250b]

You don't put too much meaning into anything if it doesn't conform to your way of thinking.

What I was getting at is the two weapons I illustrated were both the same gun but the barrel was noticeably smaller in one. You'd have to click on the link I provided to see the same image. I posted it because people are saying, and rightly so, that one image provided during the investigation shows a ruler and the measurements are smaller. The only thing I can think of is that the slide is pulled back on one. And you shouldn't have to pull the slide if the gun has already shot two rounds.

Most people filling a clip for a specific magazine would put as many bullets as it allows, especially if they've got another 25 hanging around. So I'm going with the law of averages.

@GatorFL can you give us a brief lesson on the loading of pistols and chambering a round? Thanks.

No, I have experience of handling and using firearms and, like I say, there are many good reasons as to why she or whomever loaded it didn't fill it. You state Most people filling a clip for a specific magazine would put as many bullets as it allows.. That simply isn't true. There are loads of reasons not to fill it.

The link doesn't seem to work properly, it now wants me to sign-up to read it. It's free so I will do later. Are you referring to the pistol that the collector guy had which had an additional "square" fitment at the muzzle? It would be immediately obvious if the slide were retracted and I don't think it was in any of the photos I can recall.

There is the photo of the gun in her hand and yes that is "shorter" than the evidence lab pics as it's doctored in some manner but it's definitely the same gun. You can tell it is from the marks on it.

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

I'm not sure which ones you are referring to but I do recall pictures (or video from the documentary) where the collector had various high-powers out. One was fitted with a compensator which is a device fitted to the muzzle. It has holes in the top (or one single one) and vents the propellant gasses upwards in order to control muzzle climb. It's intended for Practical Pistol competitions where you are shooting rapid strings so can reacquire the target quickly.

I don't think I'd put too much meaning into how many rounds the magazines had in them, to be honest. We don't know who loaded them or when. There may have been an issue with the magazine or if she loaded it herself then she may have been unable to get more in as they tend to get stiffer to load the more put in. I'd be interested to know the head-stamps on the brass which denotes the maker. I wonder whether gun already had nine rounds in it's magazine and someone then just emptied a full 25 round box into the briefcase?

I find this insight very useful. Very good point about the magazine getting stiffer the fuller it is.

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

*singing* All the boys think she's a spy - she's got Beekarina eyes

I've lived in two continents but Canada follows the European version of day/month/year. I always find it difficult to figure out if someone's birthday is June 5 or May 6. I think most countries should go to the universal year/month/day. Would get rid of a lot of confusion.

It may be an ISO standard, and adopted by a decent number of countries but no way is that universal! Well, it is in some elements of computing.

 

[Curious_in_NC]

OK, here's a somewhat far-fetched theory, but one that might account for the somewhat accepted facts here that she shot herself, that there seemed to have been an attempt to conceal her identity, and the just generally awkward behavior like the test shot. What if she and her accomplice, the mysterious "Lois", were involved with a kidnapping or extortion plot? The hotel room was merely a rendezvous site for their operation. This could somehow tie into the 24 hours absence, the lack of luggage, and the phone calls to Belgium. At some point she realized the gig had gone sideways, or that it worked, but that "Lois" had double crossed her and wasn't coming back, fleeing with the proceeds but leaving his gun and ammo behind in the room. Believing, or imagining, that she had now become the main suspect for this crime, she decided to end it all with the unfamiliar weapon when she realized hotel security was coming.

If there had been any extortion attempt, successful or not, the victim(s) and/or family and certainly "Lois" would be unlikely to speak out. At the beginning of this thread it was pointed out there had been child abductions very close to where she called in Belgium, but I can't suggest how those were in any way related.

 

[SocksKitty]

I just watched the documentary about this on the unexplained mysteries series. After the womans body was excavated for DNA samples they linked her to Southern Germany.

 

[SocksKitty]

The Isdal Woman (Norwegian: Isdalskvinnen) is a name given to an unidentified woman who was found dead at Isdalen ("Ice Valley") in Bergen, Norway, on 29 November 1970. Isdal Woman: a mysterious death of an unidentifiable woman in Norway; missing/removed labels; no identification in the same way but 25 years difference in time frame.

 

[Beekarina]

I now have that Kim Carnes song stuck in my head...LOL!

Is the Browning a weapon people would typically down-load?

 

[GatorFL]

You don't put too much meaning into anything if it doesn't conform to your way of thinking.

What I was getting at is the two weapons I illustrated were both the same gun but the barrel was noticeably smaller in one. You'd have to click on the link I provided to see the same image. I posted it because people are saying, and rightly so, that one image provided during the investigation shows a ruler and the measurements are smaller. The only thing I can think of is that the slide is pulled back on one. And you shouldn't have to pull the slide if the gun has already shot two rounds.

Most people filling a clip for a specific magazine would put as many bullets as it allows, especially if they've got another 25 hanging around. So I'm going with the law of averages.

@GatorFL can you give us a brief lesson on the loading of pistols and chambering a round? Thanks.

I don't think there is another gun with that silhouette. It has to be a flaw in the picture. When the slide of the Browning retracts the barrel is fully visible. So I believe what you're seeing is the slide washed out in the black of the photo. BTW, I believe as others have commented the gun seems to be cobbled together from some VERY well worn parts. I don't think the gun would be usable if the slide and barrel were modified as the picture seems to indicate. The frame and mainspring would also require modification and I don't know if the gun would be operable to fire multiple rounds. I doubt it.

I don't remember where I saw it but I thought I read the photos in this case were polaroids and so what we see on the internet are digital photos of polaroids which inevitably are missing a lot of detail. Not like the high-res digital pics LEO would take these days. I received a case file on another more recent case with about 200 photos and they were all extremely large files. The ones on this case are are pretty small files, at least all I've seen.

Here's a video of how a Browning semi auto works and this shows how rounds cycle through the firearm:

Yes, lots weird about this case. How she got the gun into the country. The serial number etched off. The extra ammo. Missing bullets in the magazine. Her clothing. The missing suitcase. The quick investigation and turnover of the room to the hotel.

Other things just seem to be incidental to me. The partially eaten meal from the day before, but only recently nibbled upon. The ironing board. The unpaid bill. She left for 20-24 hours but returned. The weird blood splatter/drips under the bed.

I go back and forth on suicide or a murder. Today I think suicide. I think she was involved in the underworld somehow and had a gun. Something happened on the 24 hours away from the room and it caused her to suicide.

I'll wake up tomorrow, have some espresso and granola and think murder.

 

[GatorFL]

I think it was just chucked into the bag with the ammo. It was a very slim bag from what I can tell so an actual commercial box might not sit well, if you see what I mean? Also, we don't know the maker of the ammo so don't know how it was originally packed. I know of a firearms dealer who lots of guys I know used to deal with extensively back in the 80's and before and he was known to sell surplus 9mm ammo by the shovel or bucket full there was that much of it around. When he had a batch surplus Carcano rifles (the type JFK was killed with) back in the day if you bought 1,000 rounds of ammo the rifle was free!

Good point on the magazine and the ammo. Except most small boxes of 9MM ammo in the mid-90's were 20, not 25 count. I have some here and went and checked. Next box size was 50, then 100. IMO that looks like cheap brass FMJ ammo in the briefcase.

Yes, it was available by the scoop in the late 80's, I used to buy Ziploc bag fulls at the range for like $5.

I bought a crate of Chinese SKS for $90 each in the early 90's. Used but packed in cosmoline and looked almost new, with gorgeous blonde hardwood stocks. After the Clinton AWB I made a lot of $ on that crate of guns.

 

[GatorFL]

I now have that Kim Carnes song stuck in my head...LOL!

Is the Browning a weapon people would typically down-load?

I agree with @Marantz4250b that there are a lot of reasons the magazine could be missing a round. It could have been fired previously elsewhere. She could have have forgotten how many rounds when loading. Could have had difficulty getting that last round in. Or not enough time to fully load. Or symbolic somehow. Just another mystery!