NV NV - Steven T. Koecher, 30, Henderson, 13 Dec 2009 - #11

[carbuff]

So now I am confused-were his bills drafting out of his private account or were his bills drafting out of his group account? I know his Mom works at a bank, and she would certainly have had access to his records associated with the group account, but unless he were a dependant of some kind she would have no information on his private account beyond what he was willing to share correct?:waitasec:
<snipped for clarity>
Unemployment as a potential source of income was shot down IIRC.

Possibly she means one or more family members are joint on the account. The account we set up for one of our kids while they were in college still has us as joint holders, which means all of us can look at it, see the transactions, deposit or remove money, etc. It mostly gets used for things like, "If you buy an extra copy of that movie when you're at the store, I'll pay you back later."

Unemployment as a source of income wasn't exactly shot down. Just no information on that point. We speculated that given what we know, he probably wasn't eligible, but that's hardly a conclusion and certainly not evidence.

The rent thing really bugs me...not to sound like a broken record or anything...

 

[Paulette]

I don't think so. No one knew about the homeless camp (see the pictures on the FB page) until a local pointed it out, after finding out about the search that would be held. He'd seen it there for quite awhile, but apparently didn't know anyone was missing from the area :banghead::banghead:

I find it unbelievable that Steven parked his car & walked off into the sunset to kill himself. Or left his car to go live in a homeless camp.

Therefore, he's either there or someone killed him & took his body away.

If he wanted his car to be found, why not leave it in town & take a bus somewhere remote?

Maybe he is the motel man.

It doesn't make any sense that he left his car. That's my sticking point. I could buy that he ran off to Pasadena or Egypt, if only his car wasn't miles from civilization.

 

[hollyblue]

But they could have been interpreting "placed", ya know?

I don't think he was put there. I know it wasn't a perfect search, but after all this time, remains would have been scattered....and (sorry about this) large parts wouldn't have degraded much.

There'd be clothing (shirt, shoes, pants, underwear, LDS garments, the cap, belt.....) besides remains.

Steven wasn't wearing a cap in the video, and we don't know for certain about a belt. Many young men today do not wear belts.

 

[laytonian]

I may be wrong about this - but wasn't the guy that found the camp a friend of Jeff Bradshaw, Steven's cousin?

I didn't know that. I just thought he was a dog-walker who lived in the area (his address IS right near where the stuff was found), and who took the pictures after he heard about the search.

 

[hollyblue]

But one of the bills was a CC right?

So now I am confused-were his bills drafting out of his private account or were his bills drafting out of his group account? I know his Mom works at a bank, and she would certainly have had access to his records associated with the group account, but unless he were a dependant of some kind she would have no information on his private account beyond what he was willing to share correct?:waitasec:
I get that it appears he was living on a shoe string-but he had a car payment he was making or not making, cell phone plan payments he was making, CC payments he was making or not making...he had a source of income that at least met some of his bills...I read that some of the CC charges were for webpages he had set up for others that he had billed to himself. Was he due restitution for these charges?

I am trying to figure out if there was an obvious gap in his income...like if he was laying out X amount of dollars per month for the expenses he was meeting, did his job with Travis equate to the amount of money he was bringing in? If so, there you go. If not, was he taking money from his family? If so, then OK. If not, where was the other money coming from...

Unemployment as a potential source of income was shot down IIRC.

That would depend on whether Steven's individual a/c was with the same bank she was employed by. If it was, she would have access to know every dr/cr on his a/c.

 

[hollyblue]

As far as the PO Box, I can't understand why he would really need one since most of his bills could be paid on line, unless for security or privacy issues. This again goes back to the speculation of the keys. If SK's key were still in the car, his parents surely checked out the keys he had. I would have. There is normally a stamp on a PO key stating it is such and cannot be duplicated.
**This is what makes me so mad about junk mail. The CC companies send you "updates" or offering you new services and put your a/c # on it. Not good. If your an online customer, they should send those marketing offerings online.

 

[rd_jfc]

I understand the cc reference is confusing. Debit cards are referred to as credit cards many times even though it isn't credit. The point being that that you give your card # to the billing (web host in this case) and they charge the card #. I have done it both with credit cards and debit cards, currently debit card. In this case it's just a card # and irrelevant whether actually credit or debit to the biller in this kind of scenario.

Obviously it's much more complicated than that in various scenarios but laytonian has pointed out as necessary throughout the threads.

Steven would not have a credit card (as I currently haven't for last few years). They yank credit cards these days fast enough to make your head spin.

So to summarize, card # is given to web host to bill, billing is done at arranged intervals (monthly or semi-annual for hosting, annual for domain, etc. Web host automatically billed the card some months after Steven was heavily involved in that activity (laytonian has it ending in May I believe), and there was no money in checking account to cover it. I'm not sure what all happens when that occurs (knock on wood), obvioulsy depends on overdraft protection (voluntary or involuntary, this is a major area of consumer concern, laws have recently been passed on it regulating what banks can do without your consent - essentially banks were making pay day like loans when overdraft occurred). Other bank specific policies will apply, but I would not be surprised if both bank and biller treat it as bounced check.

Back to web host thing, that is a money making venture attempt he was in, where he in turn charges for multiple clients on the domain. I believe some of the details were covered long go concerning cessation of accounts, activity on this, etc. This was probably renewal of the domain name when it came up for annual renewal. Would have been somewhere between $15 and $35.

rd

 

[hollyblue]

I understand the cc reference is confusing. Debit cards are referred to as credit cards many times even though it isn't credit. The point being that that you give your card # to the billing (web host in this case) and they charge the card #. I have done it both with credit cards and debit cards, currently debit card. In this case it's just a card # and irrelevant whether actually credit or debit to the biller in this kind of scenario.

Obviously it's much more complicated than that in various scenarios but laytonian has pointed out as necessary throughout the threads.

Steven would not have a credit card (as I currently haven't for last few years). They yank credit cards these days fast enough to make your head spin.

So to summarize, card # is given to web host to bill, billing is done at arranged intervals (monthly or semi-annual for hosting, annual for domain, etc. Web host automatically billed the card some months after Steven was heavily involved in that activity (laytonian has it ending in May I believe), and there was no money in checking account to cover it. I'm not sure what all happens when that occurs (knock on wood), obvioulsy depends on overdraft protection (voluntary or involuntary, this is a major area of consumer concern, laws have recently been passed on it regulating what banks can do without your consent - essentially banks were making pay day like loans when overdraft occurred). Other bank specific policies will apply, but I would not be surprised if both bank and biller treat it as bounced check.

Back to web host thing, that is a money making venture attempt he was in, where he in turn charges for multiple clients on the domain. I believe some of the details were covered long go concerning cessation of accounts, activity on this, etc. This was probably renewal of the domain name when it came up for annual renewal. Would have been somewhere between $15 and $35.

rd

Why do you think SK would not have a credit card? As long as he promptly made the minimum payment on a balance and had minimum activity...how could they cancel his a/c?

 

[believe09]

I am not confused about the debit card vs credit card...the Q&A refers to CC, so that is what I am assuming we are talking about. Maybe it is worth clearing up with Naegle.

I also get that Steven's mother would have the capacity to view Steven's private account, but given what we have seen from these nice people I am having a hard time believing she would have checked it out without his permission. Assuming his private account was at the bank. As others pointed out, it may not have been.

It would be nice to know definitively is his private account was at the bank and if his monthly bills (the ones he was paying) drafted out of his private account vs the family account. I cannot speak for you guys, but it would give me a much clearer idea of Steven's independence from his family. It is clear his family had the capacity and the desire to assist him financially. It seems that he was trying to fix things on his own. But I would view him as a far more independent person if he was managing his finances on his own including CC payments etc.

 

[believe09]

Well, yeah. We've talked about that for months -- and two words could explain the entire situation: "downward spiral". Not just financially, but the pressure to measure up, find a job, find a wife, start a family.....

A couple of months ago, Naegle and I did a long brainstorming session. She (and the family) have as many "sure would like to know if" things, as we do.

I am confused by your post. Are you under the assumption that I only recently determined that Steven was in a financial meltdown? Cause that isnt the case of course-I have been posting with you since day one.

Are you saying that there are no answers to my questions?

Sorry...not getting it.

 

[laytonian]

I am confused by your post. Are you under the assumption that I only recently determined that Steven was in a financial meltdown? Cause that isnt the case of course-I have been posting with you since day one.

Are you saying that there are no answers to my questions?

Sorry...not getting it.

Sometimes, two people don't communicate well. I'm very direct in my statements (sometimes, too much so)....and I've not been able to tell what you're getting at.

Maybe I should ask you: "Who do you want answers from?"

Are you asking me to take those questions to the family, and see if they have answers?

If so, I'll be happy to do that. But otherwise, I guess I'm as confused as you are.

What I see on WS are consistent reminders that we are not to "sleuth" or "bug" people whose names come up tangentally in a case. And when there are hints that it's been done, posts are removed.

That's why I'm confused as to the direction of questions you've asked.

 

[laytonian]

It would be nice to know definitively is his private account was at the bank and if his monthly bills (the ones he was paying) drafted out of his private account vs the family account. I cannot speak for you guys, but it would give me a much clearer idea of Steven's independence from his family. It is clear his family had the capacity and the desire to assist him financially. It seems that he was trying to fix things on his own. But I would view him as a far more independent person if he was managing his finances on his own including CC payments etc.

I already sent Naegle a question last evening, asking if Steven had a separate credit card and any credit card debt.

If I get an answer to that, I'll ask if he had any account at a bank other than the one where the group account was held, and if his parents had helped him financially after he moved to St George.

Naegle has already told us (Q&A) that Steven made his own car payments and that any credit payments came directly out of his account.

Will answers to those work for you?

To me, it has seemed clear from the beginning that Steven wanted his family to fully believe that he was successfully independent - even though he wasn't. Remember, he didn't cash the check his grandmother gave him. Pride?

 

[laytonian]

I find it unbelievable that Steven parked his car & walked off into the sunset to kill himself. Or left his car to go live in a homeless camp.

Therefore, he's either there or someone killed him & took his body away.

If he wanted his car to be found, why not leave it in town & take a bus somewhere remote?

Maybe he is the motel man.

It doesn't make any sense that he left his car. That's my sticking point. I could buy that he ran off to Pasadena or Egypt, if only his car wasn't miles from civilization.

You got it. The car doesn't make sense. In that location. It was either a random event (after maybe driving around for awhile for a private parking place inside a neighborhood) or someone told him to park there for a few hours/days, where his car wouldn't disturb anyone else.

Obviously, the PI believes there's reason for it to be there (based on the search and the few details we've heard about the tip). The family and PI firmly believe it's Steven on the security video.

I've always left room for someone else to have parked that car, but I've been so completely over-ruled by people who know Steven, I gave up Can't argue with a family who recognizes their son and loved one.

I think the only way he could have left SCA, is if someone took him away. The nearest bus stop is five miles away. So it had to be a cab, or another vehicle. I don't think he's there, alive. How could one hide for four months?

The car's location could have been a safe place to leave it, undisturbed. Where he wouldn't be seen on a security camera (like if he'd left it at a casino or store parking lot). He wouldn't have known about Mr Security. The Christmas presents inside could have been a message. And I do think there's room for him to have just walked away into the hills, where no one he knew would find him.

Since he had experience in the "marketing via flyer" business, maybe he found work passing flyers out on The Strip?

 

[carbuff]

If Steven's parents were not joint on his account, and one or more of them "snooped" to find out the exact nature of his financial trouble, I can see that violation of privacy being the final straw that would drive him to leave and not tell him where he was going. "Fine. You want to run my life? Here, I'll leave you all the pieces to clean up, even the car."

 

[RubyRed]

The same guy that posted the pics on FB of the homeless camp, said he bought milk in Henderson ( Walmart) and Steven's pic was on it. At least the milk campaign is still getting his pic out to people.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=225335012614&v=wall

 

[laytonian]

If Steven's parents were not joint on his account, and one or more of them "snooped" to find out the exact nature of his financial trouble, I can see that violation of privacy being the final straw that would drive him to leave and not tell him where he was going. "Fine. You want to run my life? Here, I'll leave you all the pieces to clean up, even the car."

Didn't one of his friends tell us that the reason he moved to St George, was to be independent? He'd been in and out of his folks' house. That far away, you have to stand up for yourself.

....and they wouldn't have necessarily looked right away. The landlord's call would have been enough to tell them that "how's it going down there" maybe wasn't be answered truthfully.

The fact that the strange driving began after the landlord called his parents, is telling. He talked to his sister twice during those days, and never mentioned what he was doing.
I think you're right. Something was brewing.

 

[laytonian]

The same guy that posted the pics on FB of the homeless camp, said he bought milk in Henderson ( Walmart) and Steven's pic was on it. At least the milk campaign is still getting his pic out to people.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=225335012614&v=wall

And to people who hadn't noticed before (IIRC from last night, he reported it as "news").

Odd thing: I can't get into any Facebook page right now. At least the BH7th and Steven's.

 

[laytonian]

Unemployment as a source of income wasn't exactly shot down. Just no information on that point. We speculated that given what we know, he probably wasn't eligible, but that's hardly a conclusion and certainly not evidence.

The rent thing really bugs me...not to sound like a broken record or anything...

Steven was an "independent contractor" for TH, so TH wouldn't have been paying into the employee funds (unemployment, disability, etc). It was likely the same with the matchbin sales job.

We don't even know how long he worked for TH. It could have been from May, or just recently.

The rent bugs me, too. Maybe not for the same reason it bugs you, but because I can't see "sliding" that long, and thinking you could get away with it. Especially a nice religious boy who everyone claims was doing everyting right, otherwise.

 

[rd_jfc]

Why do you think SK would not have a credit card? As long as he promptly made the minimum payment on a balance and had minimum activity...how could they cancel his a/c?

This isn't true at all. Credit card companies hack the credit limit down to what is owed or cancel the card on any unfavorable credit info from anywhere. It has only got worse last couple of years due to new consumer credit card protection law. First monthly payment attempted to be retrieved from a $0 checking account and he wouldn't have a credit card anymore, if indeed he had one.

Someone also posted that since news said he had a cc, he must have one. The news didn't mention the debit card also along with the credit card, did they? As I posted, debit cards are often referred to as credit cards.

This is getting more into Steven's personal life than I care to, but thought it would be obvious to understand. Since it it apparently isn't obvious, the question has been posed to the family if they care to answer it.

I guess the point is, and this is true in my own personal case, a debit card # given to charge for web hosting is only billed annually for a domain. A credit card must have monthly payments made. Steven clearly had little income and making apparently no monthly payments at all.

The charge for a domain renewal is something that came out of the blue from business activity he was in several months prior. It would be an infrequent and unsuccessful attempt to rebill his debit card. In fact, the debit card billing is bank activity, the credit card billing is not. The only way one would know a credit card billing failed is for the credit card company or the web host (GoDaddy) to report it. I would have to look at the news article, but it seemed the reporting concerned bank activity. It certainly wasn't GoDaddy telling people this, was it?

rd

 

[rd_jfc]

I saw in a recent post that Steven's utilties were scheduled to be turned off. Where did this info come from? Very confusing to me. Utilities were in landlord's name, impact would be on landlord's credit reports (even though it isn't credit), would it not? Landlord would allow utilities to be turned off?

And this really changes things as far as my uderstanding goes. While actually being angry at parents for knowing about the situation and wanting to help, taking $100 to drive hundreds of miles to see a former gf family (and he thought she would be there?) instead of say keeping the lights on, it doesn't seem like he was planning on staying there.

Being religious and heavily involved in those activities makes it even more complicated. Given those constraints, I can't think of too many options he had. A job with room and board maybe.

rd