NV NV - Steven T. Koecher, 30, Henderson, 13 Dec 2009 - #20

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  • #421
Also looking at the DSM-IV-TR states that at least TWO of the following sigs must be present,each for a signifigant length of time durung a 1-month period (or less. if successfully treated)
Delusions/hallucinations
Disorganized speech (eg, frequent derailment, incoherance)
Grossly diorganized or catatonic negative behavior symtoms,ie., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition.


I also have had some education on mental illness. I was on the "Disability Law Center Board in Utah". Learning about mental illness and disabilities of all kinds.

I believe you. Does this mean you find it appropriate to say with a fair degree of confidence that an absent person with no history of hallucinations has schizophrenia in the absence of a complete mental health workup to exclude other conditions? (Remember, even if we include "god chose a different wife for me" as a (mild, not extremely bizarre) delusion, there are no other known delusions/hallucinations, and there are *many* other disorders that include disorganized behavior) Also someone with "negative" symptoms is supposed to have major depressive disorder ruled out first.
 
  • #422
you're right. you are not a medical professional. I am (RN, yes if anyone wants to put me through the hoops of being "verified" I am easy to look up under the washington state department of health- <modsnip>) but even I, am not a psychologist or psychiatrist. I can say with a 95 percent "degree of certainty" that you are totally wrong in your "diagnosis" (very outside the scope of practice of a probation agent!!!) of schizophrenia. Schizophrenics suffer from delusions or hallucinations. Being "religious" is not classified as a delusion. there are many religious people out there who have similar thoughts as steven when it comes to finding someone to be with. do I think they're weird? yes but only bc I'm not religious. people I know, talk to god all the time. they even believe in the devil, or that the devil influences people to do things! but guess what? they're not schizophrenic. they're religious. now if steven said god wanted him to take his clothes off in public, or to threaten someone with death, or that people were listening to his thoughts, that is a delusion. not being in love with someone, and justifying it as saying she is not god's chosen wife for you, is not a delusion for someone in the mormon religion. I find it ghastly that you have diagnosed, I say diagnosed and not SUGGESTED because you claim to be 90 percent certain- heck not even diagnoses are always 90 percent certain!! ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION ARE NOT NEGATIVE SYMPTOMS OF SCHIZOPHRENIA. For god's sake, *loneliness* is not a sign of schizophrenia. Negative symptoms are a FLAT affect, ie, no emotion showing on your face at all, NOT showing feelings, it would be NOT showing loneliness when you are alone in your life. It only presents like depression sometimes, because depressed people can appear withdrawn and also have a flat affect. Steven, you can see in his pictures and videos, was someone who showed a lot of emotion.

NAIVITY AND IMMATURITY ARE NOT POSITIVE SYMPTOMS OF SCHIZOPHRENIA. Naivity and immaturity can be a normal personality trait, associated with something like ADD (which would go with cognitive difficulties as well), the list goes on and on. Positive symptoms that are UNIQUE to schizophrenia (or other psychotic disorders) include hearing and seeing things that do not exist, which you have not demonstrated at all to the degree that would be needed. I'm very sorry that you feel you have an understanding of this very serious illness.

Are you a psychiatric nurse? I believe a licensed psychiatrist would be only the person to make a proper mental diagnosis, so by you stating that LL is incorrect is just as erroneous. She is in an environment, like yours, that puts her in close contact with mental illnesses.

From my knowledge, there are different "levels" of schizophrenia as with many disorders like bipolar. Delusions and hallucinations can vary also. Steven may have been a religious man with beliefs of speaking to, hearing from, getting spiritual revelations, and maybe even blaming God, true, but most people do not let this get to a point of dysfunction with everyday living. Something has. You have selected a few of the symptoms or characteristics that LL has posted from her research. She is asking to look at the broad spectrum presented and is not diagnosing him and stated so in her post. It's something she is theorizing... and backing it up with facts as presented....and I think she has done a very a thorough, and thought provoking job of it.

As gsmith brought forward, SK was taking some kind of medication. Was this a prescribed medication by a doctor? Was it something he got from a friend, acquaintance or off the street? Or was it something homeopathic or an illegal drug? His family has not come forward to say he was on any type of medication. ???

Lady Leo's theory and speculation doesn't ask for approval, but it's been presented for thought and discussion. It's plausible that Steven did suffer from the onset of schizophrenia or another undiagnosed mental illness. This is why I ask if the marks I had observed on his head in the one video were scars. ??? Severe head trauma, I'm sure you are aware, can cause negative cognitive results. There have even been studies on people who have had head injuries and have shown schizophrenia like symptoms. Most with that study ---lacking the characteristics you have chosen in chronic delusions and hallucinations. I know from personal experience two people I had close contact with that had head trauma. One in his early 40's who had been unconscious for 2 days, and the other (early teens) in a coma for over 30. They both had to have rehabilitation, but obviously in the latter case it was extensive. Depending on where in the brain the injury occurred, it could be that life long medication is essential in dealing with the mental ramifications; especially disorganized thought patterns. From my personal observance, they show slowness...in speech and thought...even if barely noticeable upon talking to them, but as time went on you knew something that was once there...wasn't working the same and probably never back to the fully functional person they once had been. The latter had problems with decision making, etc.(disorganized thought). Ironically, like Steven, they were both gentle souls...but I did observe that they had a hard time dealing or expressing their feelings when upset afterwards. In the young man, I gave him a guitar I had when I was young...and it was an inspiration to him...in which I was so gratified to see him embrace something with such positivity. Odd too, the 40 year old was a musician also. Therapy comes in many forms...and music therapy has been known for thousands of years...just not recognized.

I strongly encourage anyone knowing or related to anyone that has suffered head trauma to have them visit with a psychiatrist. They have the MD...too remember. It's just makes common sense and only the best of MD's mention and recommend it.

With that, I'll close on a good note. ;)

ETA: For those interested: http://www.schizophrenia.com/diag.php

http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/bfrontal.shtml
 
  • #423
Are you a psychiatric nurse? I believe a licensed psychiatrist would be only the person to make a proper mental diagnosis, so by you stating that LL is incorrect is just as erroneous. She is in an environment, like yours, that puts her in close contact with mental illnesses.

From my knowledge, there are different "levels" of schizophrenia as with many disorders like bipolar. Delusions and hallucinations can vary also. Steven may have been a religious man with beliefs of speaking to, hearing from, getting spiritual revelations, and maybe even blaming God, true, but most people do not let this get to a point of dysfunction with everyday living. Something has. You have selected a few of the symptoms or characteristics that LL has posted from her research. She is asking to look at the broad spectrum presented and is not diagnosing him and stated so in her post. It's something she is theorizing... and backing it up with facts as presented....and I think she has done a very a thorough, and thought provoking job of it.

As gsmith brought forward, SK was taking some kind of medication. Was this a prescribed medication by a doctor? Was it something he got from a friend, acquaintance or off the street? Or was it something homeopathic or an illegal drug? His family has not come forward to say he was on any type of medication. ???

Lady Leo's theory and speculation doesn't ask for approval, but it's been presented for thought and discussion. It's plausible that Steven did suffer from the onset of schizophrenia or another undiagnosed mental illness. This is why I ask if the marks I had observed on his head in the one video were scars. ??? Severe head trauma, I'm sure you are aware, can cause negative cognitive results. There have even been studies on people who have had head injuries and have shown schizophrenia like symptoms. Most with that study ---lacking the characteristics you have chosen in chronic delusions and hallucinations. I know from personal experience two people I had close contact with that had head trauma. One in his early 40's who had been unconscious for 2 days, and the other (early teens) in a coma for over 30. They both had to have rehabilitation, but obviously in the latter case it was extensive. Depending on where in the brain the injury occurred, it could be that life long medication is essential in dealing with the mental ramifications; especially disorganized thought patterns. From my personal observance, they show slowness...in speech and thought...even if barely noticeable upon talking to them, but as time went on you knew something that was once there...wasn't working the same and probably never back to the fully functional person they once had been. The latter had problems with decision making, etc.(disorganized thought). Ironically, like Steven, they were both gentle souls...but I did observe that they had a hard time dealing or expressing their feelings when upset afterwards. In the young man, I gave him a guitar I had when I was young...and it was an inspiration to him...in which I was so gratified to see him embrace something with such positivity. Odd too, the 40 year old was a musician also. Therapy comes in many forms...and music therapy has been known for thousands of years...just not recognized.

With that, I'll close on a good note. ;)

ETA: For those interested: http://www.schizophrenia.com/diag.php

http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/bfrontal.shtml

as stated, no. :) but what I was stating, was exactly that- only a psychiatrist can make a proper diagnosis* and while we can say we think someone had something we can't say he had a disorder with an extremely *high* degree of confidence. I consider schizophrenia to be an extremely specific diagnosis and 90 percent to be pretty high, so I challenged it. And you are free to disagree (even vastly!) from the challenges I made, just as I disagreed with hers. Your post is exactly one reason why I say we can't say with a high degree of confidence he had one specific disorder. :) For instance, seemingly strange behavior due to trauma or life circumstances would not be considered organic schizophrenia. It sounded like gsmith implied that he was not taking a prescribed medication but an OTC one, and had not been evaluated by a doctor.

* Diagnosis: The act or process of identifying or determining the nature and cause of a person's disease or injury through evaluation of patient history, examination, and review of laboratory data.
The opinion derived from such an evaluation. http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/diagnosis
I admit the word diagnosis can be confusing. But despite someone being able to say "I am not making a diagnosis", it seemed to more like she was "identifying" a specific disorder (not just a state of mind) based on "facts" (doctors only, please) rather saying "this is a strong possibility", based on my *beliefs* (anyone can do).

I said I *believe* Steven was depressed (symptom), but not that the facts 90 percent show he had Major Depressive Disorder (diagnosis). There are many depressive disorders, just like there are many psychotic disorders, and many disorders of organization or obsessive thinking. Even if I believe he was depressed, who am I to say I think I know which one he had?

Also, disagreeing with a diagnosis or description of a disorder or characteristics of a disorder, is not diagnosing! see definition above...
 
  • #424
I just did a Google search of this website, and the interesting thing?
We first discussed mental issues (including schizophrenia) as a possibility, way back in Thread 1. And in almost every thread since.

Searching for the word "schizophrenic" in Steven's threads? 87 occurrences
Searching for "schizophrenia"? 67 occurrences.
Depression? 1,350.

So....we amateur sleuths are just back to rehashing the same thing.
Nothing new to see here.
It hasn't led to any breakthroughs or discoveries.

Did Steven have some sort of issue? Probably.
But we don't know if it led him to be taken advantage of, or caused his disappearance. I know how I'd vote - but I don't know.

I think the key is in "what" or "who", rather than Steven himself. IMO.
 
  • #425
I just did a Google search of this website, and the interesting thing?
We first discussed mental issues (including schizophrenia) as a possibility, way back in Thread 1. And in almost every thread since.

Searching for the word "schizophrenic" in Steven's threads? 87 occurrences
Searching for "schizophrenia"? 67 occurrences.
Depression? 1,350.

So....we amateur sleuths are just back to rehashing the same thing.
Nothing new to see here.
It hasn't led to any breakthroughs or discoveries.

Did Steven have some sort of issue? Probably.
But we don't know if it led him to be taken advantage of, or caused his disappearance. I know how I'd vote - but I don't know.

I think the key is in "what" or "who", rather than Steven himself. IMO.

I may come off as abrasive, but I just don't believe anyone has solved this mystery yet...actually do enjoy a good debate about healthcare and other issues now and then. sorry if I scare people off with my passionate responses. or am I?? I will admit, there is a little something to that theory. But due to the nature of schizophrenics being disorganized, they are easier to be found, especially with a thousand people looking for them! This seemed like a pretty organized disappearance, by Steven or someone who wished him harm. So I definitely feel there is more, to the story. Also actively schizophrenic people have a lot of trouble hiding their symptoms (not deceptive enough) at a place like church (performing sealings!), etc...
When people say disorganized speech they mean some serious RAMBLING...like oh man...somethins definitely goin on with this guy. A strange pause every now and then, doesn't quite do it for me. It's not something someone could hide in a formal environment. It would surprise me, if Steven had a position of counselor in his ward with this problem.
 
  • #426
only a psychiatrist can make a proper diagnosis* and while we can say we think someone had something we can't say he had a disorder with an extremely *high* degree of confidence. I consider schizophrenia to be an extremely specific diagnosis and 90 percent to be pretty high, so I challenged it.

I agree with this whole-heartedly. A face-to-face meeting with a doctor is the only way to diagnose SK, and none of us are doctors and none of us have met SK. Saying "I work around schizophrenics" and prefacing your post with a 90 percent certainty that your theory is correct is simply disingenuous.
 
  • #427
I may come off as abrasive, but I just don't believe anyone has solved this mystery yet...actually do enjoy a good debate about healthcare and other issues now and then. sorry if I scare people off with my passionate responses. or am I?? I will admit, there is a little something to that theory. But due to the nature of schizophrenics being disorganized, they are easier to be found, especially with a thousand people looking for them! This seemed like a pretty organized disappearance, by Steven or someone who wished him harm. So I definitely feel there is more, to the story. Also actively schizophrenic people have a lot of trouble hiding their symptoms (not deceptive enough) at a place like church (performing sealings!), etc...
When people say disorganized speech they mean some serious RAMBLING...like oh man...somethins definitely goin on with this guy. A strange pause every now and then, doesn't quite do it for me.

Transient aphasia is what my doctor called it. I halt midsentence myself, occasionally, when searching for a noun. I've always done it, and I'm sure it's not going away now. I can see the item, but not connect it to a word. It happens once in awhile, as I type (but Google helps).

I wish I could find the news story, but it's a couple months old -- ANYWAY, it discussed how missing people DO contact the grid a couple times a month.
The shelters, police, hospitals, and service agencies come into contact with the mentally ill and homeless on a regular basis.

Someone who's gone to a lot of effort to hide, with their fake ID and such, contacts the grid under their new ID. Or....sometimes they get away to an area where no one knows their status -- like the "Disappeared" viewer who recognized Michele McMullen.

Unfortunately for many missing people, they are average-looking folks, like most of us.
 
  • #428
As laytonian stated nicely, we batted the schizophrenia theory around-the manefestation of it seems to be kind of late.

I mean, we could pick a number of different things which would bring us to a number of possible conclusions-how about TLE which can show itself sometimes with hypersexuality and sometimes with hyper-religious views and experiences? Visions, people compelled to adhere to strict religious positions...truly the possibilities are endless.

I appreciate theories for sure, but I think we can pick through the facts with a degree of certainty vs wondering about an organic condition that the family has stated firmly is not part of the equation. IMO.
 
  • #429
In order to support my position, please read the following:

"To be diagnosed as schizophrenic one must meet the A-F criterion in the DSM IV. Criterion A's focus is on the psychotic symptoms present in active-phase schizophrenia: delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech, grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior and negative symptoms (such as a flat affect, alogia or avolition). In addition to meeting two or more of the characteristics symptoms in criterion A, an individual must also exhibit a marked decline in occupational, relational or self-care skills since the onset of the disorder (criterion B). The psychological disturbance (symptoms of the disorder) must persist (criterion C) for at least six months and those six months must include at least one month of the active-phase symptoms found in criterion A.

Criterion D requires that a schizoaffective disorder and mood disorder be eliminated as the cause of the symptoms. Criterion E requires that any underlying medical conditions be ruled out as the cause of the schizophrenic-like symptoms. Finally, criterion F of the DSM IV states that if there is "a relationship to a pervasive developmental disorder, the diagnosis of schizophrenia must only be made if prominent delusions or hallucinations are also present for at least at least one month."

I'm sorry, but thinking god has chosen a wife for you, just does not count. It may not seem like it to everyone, but when someone has not met the above conditions, including have less severe conditions ruled out FIRST, how is it even possible to say schizophrenia- with any certainty at all?

Sophieness - do you have links for this info, please?

Thanks,

Salem
 
  • #430
I think most people looking at this case, including members of the family, have been willing to entertain the idea that SK had a mental break. This isn't a new theory and just as possible as any others.

My own personal opinion surrounds the location of his car. I invite anyone to come to Las Vegas, shoot me an email, and let me show them where he parked that car. I understand schizophrenia very well -- many of the actions schizophrenics make don't make sense -- and picking that location to dump his car certainly doesn't make any sense.

However, in my opinion, his actions on Dec. 13, 2009 are very deliberate -- he pulled into a dead end street, waited in his car until exactly noon, and then walked toward a house. I find it hard to believe that this wasn't a deliberate, planned move. Moreover, his phone hits off several cell towers far away from where he was last seen. Based on the time frame from when he left his car to when his phone next pinged, I don't believe he made it to those new neighborhoods by walking.

Without the full story, it can be argued that his actions are those of a mentally ill person. However, I believe there was a reason he went to that neighborhood, and when that reason is discovered, his actions leading up to his disappearance will make sense.

We don't know how Steven reasoned tho? What may seem illogical to us may seem logical to him. Just as in all the traveling and other aspects of his behavior. Logic tells me if he had been receiving unemployment and was quite frugal, he would have had enough money to pay his bills and put some aside. Logic tells me he could have secured a job at Walmart, K-Mart, 7-11 or somewhere simular to sustain him until a better job came along, but he didn't. Logic tells me if I'm on unemployment or not bring in a income, I shouldn't be paying tythes either, but that's my reasoning....maybe not Steven's.
 
  • #431
Hey Guys - just a few quick reminders. If you want to bring out definitions of this or that or illness, or whatever, please remember to link them up. When you state a theory or proposition based on your internet research, you should provide the links to the research so other posters can follow your trail and review you logic. If your post is based on personal experience, please just remember to tell us that also.

If your post is based on professional experience, please be sure you are a verified member of the profession so that other posters know they can rely on your comments.

Please - do not get snarky. If a post offends you, alert it and let the mods handle it. It makes things ever so much easier.

And finally - I see we have some new posters in this thread. :welcome:

We appreicate your participation and look forward to your viewpoint on this case. Everyone very much wants Steven to come home!

Salem
 
  • #432
  • #433
  • #434
  • #435
I started following this case after seeing Disappeared. While I haven’t read all the threads, I think I’ve read all the various theories, many of which (as has been said many times) sound very plausible, yet all are missing some of the components to be the correct one.

What comes to my mind is that if he voluntarily left with the idea of not wanting to be found, he was able to do so without leaving any definitive traces. He would have had to have planned it very meticulously, not making any amateurish mistakes. Which leads me to the same conclusion if someone else took him. Odd, that 2 different possibilities would not leave any clues, which would seem to liken it to something like a professional or very experienced person involved.

If all the people who have described his personality and traits are correct, I don’t see him as having any particular mental problems that the average person doesn’t have from time to time caused by stress or the economy.

My theory would be that his disappearance began with some person in SCA, and that it was very well thought out by somebody who had lots of practice at not leaving any possible clues.
 
  • #436
I started following this case after seeing Disappeared. While I haven&#8217;t read all the threads, I think I&#8217;ve read all the various theories, many of which (as has been said many times) sound very plausible, yet all are missing some of the components to be the correct one.

What comes to my mind is that if he voluntarily left with the idea of not wanting to be found, he was able to do so without leaving any definitive traces. He would have had to have planned it very meticulously, not making any amateurish mistakes. Which leads me to the same conclusion if someone else took him. Odd, that 2 different possibilities would not leave any clues, which would seem to liken it to something like a professional or very experienced person involved.

If all the people who have described his personality and traits are correct, I don&#8217;t see him as having any particular mental problems that the average person doesn&#8217;t have from time to time caused by stress or the economy.

My theory would be that his disappearance began with some person in SCA, and that it was very well thought out by somebody who had lots of practice at not leaving any possible clues.

That's been theory #1, since his car was left there and he walks away.

But despite canvassing of the neighborhood, his computer being subpoenaed and forensically examined, his phone records scrutinized and all his paperwork reviewed - there's never been any indication that he communicated with anyone in that neighborhood.

None of the job applications found in his car or apartment told a tale, either. They were either unsent apps, or rejections.
 
  • #437
That's been theory #1, since his car was left there and he walks away.

But despite canvassing of the neighborhood, his computer being subpoenaed and forensically examined, his phone records scrutinized and all his paperwork reviewed - there's never been any indication that he communicated with anyone in that neighborhood.

None of the job applications found in his car or apartment told a tale, either. They were either unsent apps, or rejections.

I realize he wasn't excited about using new technology, but maybe someone gave him one of those throw-away cell phones which he accepted in his naivety, believing he might have been given a first chance at a job that had to be kept secret at the moment?
 
  • #438
That's been theory #1, since his car was left there and he walks away.

But despite canvassing of the neighborhood, his computer being subpoenaed and forensically examined, his phone records scrutinized and all his paperwork reviewed - there's never been any indication that he communicated with anyone in that neighborhood.

BBM - my theory has been all along that the man he who picked Steven up merely used SCA as a meeting place. the guy was familiar with the area as in having once lived there or knew people there. knew the neighborhood would not likely attract immediate attention and the car was at low risk for being disturbed.
 
  • #439
I realize he wasn't excited about using new technology, but maybe someone gave him one of those throw-away cell phones which he accepted in his naivety, believing he might have been given a first chance at a job that had to be kept secret at the moment?

I think he used all the technology he could afford.

We've theorized about a tracphone as one of those "maybe" things - thinking if he did leave on his own, he'd have purchased it with cash.

But then, it leads nowhere ;)
 
  • #440
laytonian...."None of the job applications found in his car or apartment told a tale, either. They were either unsent apps, or rejections."

Hi....do we know about the rejections....as in what kind of applications
was he sending out....and perhaps the names or types of companies
which were rejecting his applications.

It would help to know what he was looking for.....a job in journalism, another
job like the one he had in St. George, something else??

Thanks.....
 
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