GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #4

[SpanishInquisition]

There might be someone here who thinks there's a specific, detailed timeline in the warrant, but I am not that person.

If there's a cat-and-mouse going on for around a hour that's hugely different than something that really wasn't a cat-and-mouse at all happening in a few minutes. The longer EN is in the park after having called, the more the scales tip towards the Buick being at the school for other reasons besides wanting to hunt EN. Also if EN had been hunted for an hour or any considerable length of time, it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't start shooting instantly instead of saying he only loaded his gun after he finally saw his hunters that had a gun and were chasing him with the car. His gun would have already been loaded and ready ages ago before he ever got in the silver car.

I completely agree that we don't have a firm timeline. We only have a third-hand estimated time of when EN arrived at the park. We don't know when the Buick arrived in the vicinity, we don't know when the Audi arrived in the vicinity. And once the two cars were in the vicinity, we don't know how long it was until the chase was on.

Great! So I hope you understand why I'm non-committal to any one theory.

 

[sonjay]

If there's a cat-and-mouse going on for around a hour that's hugely different than something that really wasn't a cat-and-mouse at all happening in a few minutes. The longer EN is in the park after having called, the more the scales tip towards the Buick being at the school for other reasons besides wanting to hunt EN. Also if EN had been hunted for an hour or any considerable length of time, it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't start shooting instantly instead of saying he only loaded his gun after he finally saw his hunters that had a gun and were chasing him with the car. His gun would have already been loaded and ready ages ago before he ever got in the silver car.

An hour? I'm quite sure that I never said the Buick was out there hunting EN for an hour.

The only place that such an estimate could have come from would be from KM's statement, and as you know, I am not relying on that for anything.

Personally, I'm envisioning the Buick arriving to look for EN, EN sees the Buick and calls the Audi. When the Audi arrives and pulls to the curb for EN to get in, the Buick spots them. Maybe somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 minutes to 15 minutes from when the Buick first arrives to when the Buick & the Audi mix it up and start their chase.

If EN wanted out of there because he knew that "those kids" in the Buick were "after him," it's likely and logical that he would have called someone close by who could get there quickly. I definitely don't entertain the notion of some hour-long cat-and-mouse going on.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I've known passengers to reach over and honk the horn. All teenagers.

That part doesn't surprise me, just the reason given.

 

[sonjay]

Great! So I hope you understand why I'm non-committal to any one theory.

Yes, absolutely! And I agree with that stance.

I'm not committed so much to any one particular theory as I am convinced that the driving lessons and road rage never happened. I think there are a lot of different ways this could have unfolded, and I don't think we have nearly enough information to draw firm conclusions about most of it.

If I ever see any evidence at all that the driving lessons or the road rage happened, I'll absolutely be willing to change my mind on that, too.

 

[BellaVita]

QUOTE=Miss Muffet;11562514]You're misreading the M's timeline. They arrived at the school around 2210. They returned to the school at 2250. The Audi encounter happened AFTER they left the school the second time. From 2250 until 2320 they left the school the second time, had the Audi encounter, returned home, went back out, had high speed car chase, shooting at first scene, returned home, mom shot in the head. All that happened in 30 to 40 minutes from 2250 to 2320-2330.

The question myself and RI are trying to figure out is if there was enough time for that to happen in that time period after 2250. That's why SpanishInquisition calculated the driving times for the routes they took after 2250. I plan to do my own calculations when there's time. If SI and/or I determine there was enough time, others will have to provide solid calculations to prove otherwise for me to concede.

I'm not going to simply disregard it happened without someone showing me how it couldn't have happened. Right now, all I'm hearing are people giving their opinion it couldn't have happened based on their not understanding the timeframe in the warrant---like you just stated that you seem to misunderstand the warrant and think the Audi "road rage" incident occurred before they returned to the school the second time. It's clear in the warrant that the Audi "road rage" incident occurred after they returned to the school the second time and KM and TM switched seats.

NO. I am saying that it did NOT occur before returning to the school. And I do not believe there was anonymous road rage. There was a motive beyond someone driving slowly. And really, you are believing that there was a switching of seats? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt it.

Not according to the detailed timeline within the warrant. You can't just throw the timeline out the window.

If you use EN's gun sighting and compare it to the timeline, that actually proves EN wasn't in the car. The M's didn't have their gun until after TM returned home and got BM. The Audi "road rage" incident happened before there was a gun in the car.

How do you know when the M's had their gun? They can't even figure that out!

If you throw the entire timeline out the window---when LE probably has significant evidence proving the timeline via video of these two cars throughout the neighborhood streets over the hour and a half---you're just creating a fantasy based on inconsistencies.[/QUOTE]

I'm having a hard time with this quoting. Bolded and words in red are written by me. All the rest is quoting Miss Muffet!

 

[sonjay]

It would be impossible to catch him with him always moving around on foot and EN and the passengers staying in the Buick. If the Meyers were out expressly to get EN at or near the park, you'd for instance have the presumably slow on foot mom driving around in the car scouting around, while you'd have the young and armed BM on foot (like BM start on foot approaching from the Cherry and going NE with the Buick scouting the school or other side of the park) working on opposite sides and coordinating by cell phone to box EN in so that he can't escape from an open park. At least one of them has to be out of the car even if they just know the general area that he's in or else he'll just keep going somewhere else. I don't think anyone would expect EN to be a compliant puppy once they found him and were approaching him on foot, but to expect him to flee at some point once he saw them.

Oh, this is great! If I'm ever "out to get" someone, I want you as my tactical operations expert!

I somehow don't picture BM and his mom or BM & KM (or whatever combination of Meyerses we want to contemplate) as being such skilled SpecOps-style tacticians. I see it more like, they're pi**ed off at EN (for whatever reason -- drug deal gone bad, offensive sexual advances toward KM, or whatever), and they decide they're going to "get him." BM grabs his gun and they set out for the park. They have no real plan, no tactics. More Keystone Kops than American Sniper. They're probably not even clear on what they mean by "get him."

In my limited experience observing hotheads who decide they're going to "get" someone, that's what I would picture. Not a coordinated plan with mom in car and BM on foot, his 9mm riding comfortably in his tactical thigh holster, black watch cap pulled low over his forehead and ears.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

An hour? I'm quite sure that I never said the Buick was out there hunting EN for an hour.
The only place that such an estimate could have come from would be from KM's statement, and as you know, I am not relying on that for anything.

I said it mattered whether it took 5 minutes or 50 minutes (which are numbers that I just made up to represent something that would be a short and something that would be long) for the silver car to arrive and you responded back that you had no time frame, so that's why I responded back using the example I had previously given to show that it mattered. The longer it takes the silver car to arrive after EN calls, the less probable a one-trip scenario is. I'm not saying whether the silver car arrived quickly, moderately or took a long time, just that we don't know when and it matters in balancing out what most likely happened.

Personally, I'm envisioning the Buick arriving to look for EN, EN sees the Buick and calls the Audi. When the Audi arrives and pulls to the curb for EN to get in, the Buick spots them. Maybe somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 minutes to 15 minutes from when the Buick first arrives to when the Buick & the Audi mix it up and start their chase.

That's definitely a possibility. If the Buick spotted EN around the time he was getting in the car, that would mean EN had left the park and went by the school and across the street, which isn't to say it didn't happen, just that would be a pre-requisite step to EN being at the location where BM saw him. Also the EN hearsay witness says EN was already in the silver car driving while the Buick was in the parking lot contradicts that while BM says it happened with the silver car stopped, which can be explained by EN hearsay misunderstanding, but until further evidence comes out I'm withholding judgment either way as to who was stopped and who was driving at the critical moment.

If EN wanted out of there because he knew that "those kids" in the Buick were "after him," it's likely and logical that he would have called someone close by who could get there quickly. I definitely don't entertain the notion of some hour-long cat-and-mouse going on.

I agree he called someone nearby geographically, but that doesn't mean the person immediately went there. We don't actually know what EN said to get the ride, which for all we know EN didn't want to lose his potential ride by tipping off they'd be going into a potentially hazardous situation if they got him, so the driver could have dawdled taking his time to leave instead of going into emergency mode. I think it took no more than 20 minutes for the silver car to arrive, but I haven't closed off the idea of later times.

 

[sonjay]

I said it mattered whether it took 5 minutes or 50 minutes (which are numbers that I just made up to represent something that would be a short and something that would be long) for the silver car to arrive and you responded back that you had no time frame, so that's why I responded back using the example I had previously given to show that it mattered. The longer it takes the silver car to arrive after EN calls, the less probable a one-trip scenario is. I'm not saying whether the silver car arrived quickly, moderately or took a long time, just that we don't know when and it matters in balancing out what most likely happened.

I agree with this.

That's definitely a possibility. If the Buick spotted EN around the time he was getting in the car, that would mean EN had left the park and went by the school and across the street, which isn't to say it didn't happen, just that would be a pre-requisite step to EN being at the location where BM saw him.

Well.... as you pointed out earlier, we have to be careful not to take all of the statements in the warrant as being 100% true and accurate. BM's statement says that after the roundabout trip involving Cimmaron, Westcliff & Buffalo, they spotted the silver car on Ducharme at Sam Jonas. I'm not sure I buy that roundabout trip, and that would mean the location of the silver car at Ducharme & Sam Jonas is also suspect. I think the cars first interacted with each other somewhere in the vicinity of the park & school, but I'm not convinced that it happened in any specific location -- just that it happened somewhere around there.

It's entirely possible that if Brandon (and any other Meyerses in the car with him) set out to "get" EN that night, he told the story of the roundabout trip as a diversion -- if they were driving around over on Cimarron & Westcliff, doesn't that make it look less like they were out to "get" EN? Thereby making them look less guilty of instigating the incident?

I think the stories were made up on the spur of the moment as needed, and fleshed out later as needed. That would mean they're not always going to make perfect sense, and they're going to be a mix of truth and falsehood.

I'm about 100% certain EN is the shooter, but I actually believe his story of the chase and shooting more than Brandon's. EN was telling his friends about it, and in a context that indicates he wasn't trying to lie or hide what he did. BM was talking to cops, not friends, and he was trying to minimize his responsibility for what happened that night.

I agree he called someone nearby geographically, but that doesn't mean the person immediately went there. We don't actually know what EN said to get the ride, which for all we know EN didn't want to lose his potential ride by tipping off they'd be going into a potentially hazardous situation if they got him, so the driver could have dawdled taking his time to leave instead of going into emergency mode. I think it took no more than 20 minutes for the silver car to arrive, but I haven't closed off the idea of later times.

Agree, this makes sense. Or, depending on how worried EN was and how big of a hurry he was to get out of there, he might have called several friends until he found one who could there fast.

On the basis of no evidence whatsoever, I tend to think the whole thing, from when the Buick set out that night to the shooting in the cul de sac, was over in a fairly short period of time. That's just my feeling -- MOO and all that -- and I'm not claiming that any detailed timeline supports it.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I somehow don't picture BM and his mom or BM & KM (or whatever combination of Meyerses we want to contemplate) as being such skilled SpecOps-style tacticians. I see it more like, they're pi**ed off at EN (for whatever reason -- drug deal gone bad, offensive sexual advances toward KM, or whatever), and they decide they're going to "get him." BM grabs his gun and they set out for the park. They have no real plan, no tactics. More Keystone Kops than American Sniper. They're probably not even clear on what they mean by "get him."

In my limited experience observing hotheads who decide they're going to "get" someone, that's what I would picture. Not a coordinated plan with mom in car and BM on foot, his 9mm riding comfortably in his tactical thigh holster, black watch cap pulled low over his forehead and ears.

They have to have a reason for using a car in the first place when they're going after someone on foot in an extremely close area that itself is foot friendly and car unfriendly. Without any real premeditated plan, there's no point to the car as the default position to go to the park from their house would be by foot. It's 1000 feet from their door to the middle of the park, which 500 feet of that they'd have to walk either way. Such short distances with areas like the school and park that require foot walking anyway doesn't scream out that the first reaction would be to get in the car. The less plotting there was beforehand, the less reason there is to think of using the car at all to go somewhere they can practically spit on from their house.

 

[Miss Muffet]

SpanishInquisition,

I'm working on the timeline.

What are you using now for the time of the shootings on Mt. Shasta since the security camera picture is 2322.47? It's only 41 seconds from the camera to the Meyer's house without speeding. That would have the Audi arriving at the Meyer's house at 2322.88.

As far as I know, there wasn't an exact official time of the shooting on Shasta. Anything publicized early on could be inaccurate anyway. I'm planning to use 2322.88. Just wanted to check to see if you felt there was a reason to disregard the security camera time.

 

[sonjay]

They have to have a reason for using a car in the first place when they're going after someone on foot in an extremely close area that itself is foot friendly and car unfriendly. Without any real premeditated plan, there's no point to the car as the default position to go to the park from their house would be by foot. It's 1000 feet from their door to the middle of the park, which 500 feet of that they'd have to walk either way. Such short distances with areas like the school and park that require foot walking anyway doesn't scream out that the first reaction would be to get in the car. The less plotting there was beforehand, the less reason there is to think of using the car at all to go somewhere they can practically spit on from their house.

You're right, the park is awfully darn close to their house. Some people just automatically drive everywhere and anywhere, though, so I wouldn't necessarily think they need a specific reason to use the car.

Also, depending on what kind of vague ideas they had in mind with respect to "getting" him -- perhaps they intended to yell at him and brandish or fire the gun in his general direction to scare him, then take off before he could do anything to them?

Perhaps they felt like the car provided some protection? Or they felt like they might need the car to get away fast once they had done whatever they had in mind to do?

Or maybe for some unknown reason they did make that roundabout trip BM described before ending up at the park? Maybe they believed that on foot at that time of night they would be more memorable if anyone saw them, while most people don't particularly notice cars driving by?

Given the chase route described by both BM and EN, and EN's friends saying that he saw the car "in the school parking lot" and "driving around the school," we can be pretty positive that the Buick was at or near the school when the chase started. That's about as far I can go in nailing down a specific location -- which is not very specific.

 

[sonjay]

Did anybody notice the comments on this article http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/mother-four-shot-road-rage-incident-dies
authored by this rather infamous Vegas attorney?
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/17/nation/la-na-oj-simpson-20130518

Pretty interesting, IMO.

ETA - IMPORTANT NOTE - 3 days later he abruptly changed his opinion and was very, very upset at the family.

SeeAlice, I so wish I understood what you mean. I saw the comments you're referring to, I think. But where did you find that he changed his opinion and was upset at the family?

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Well.... as you pointed out earlier, we have to be careful not to take all of the statements in the warrant as being 100% true and accurate.

Yes, I'm referring to it in that I have to consider it a possibility that things went either way there, not saying it must be what either BM said happened there or what EN hearsay witness said happened there. I feel distinctly uncomfortable with the contradicting statements about that in the complaint even though I can come up with reasons for discrepancies, which causes me to withhold judgment.

It's entirely possible that if Brandon (and any other Meyerses in the car with him) set out to "get" EN that night, he told the story of the roundabout trip as a diversion -- if they were driving around over on Cimarron & Westcliff, doesn't that make it look less like they were out to "get" EN? Thereby making them look less guilty of instigating the incident?

Yes, it is possible. I believe they are making up some story to cover something up, just I haven't settled on what exactly they're covering up and what they were doing that caused them to invent the story.

I'm about 100% certain EN is the shooter, but I actually believe his story of the chase and shooting more than Brandon's. EN was telling his friends about it, and in a context that indicates he wasn't trying to lie or hide what he did. BM was talking to cops, not friends, and he was trying to minimize his responsibility for what happened that night.

I believe EN was the shooter as well and I think he committed Voluntary Manslaughter (as opposed to Murder that he's currently charged with). I lean towards some kind of two-trip theory where the Buick was out engaged in some kind of nefarious business including around the school, which EN needlessly panicked as nobody in the Buick cared about him, the Buick had some kind of incident with the silver car that had nothing to do with driving lessons, the Buick then went home to get armed and hunt the silver car and then the shootings happened with it being coincidental that EN was in the car. There are of course weaknesses in this theory, like one that jumps out is how EN could be so surprised that he killed TM, but finding weaknesses and uncertainties in theories is why I haven't settled on one.

 

[SStarr33]

That part doesn't surprise me, just the reason given.

Similar reasons in my experience.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

What are you using now for the time of the shootings on Mt. Shasta since the security camera picture is 2322.47? It's only 41 seconds from the camera to the Meyer's house without speeding. That would have the Audi arriving at the Meyer's house at 2322.88.

As far as I know, there wasn't an exact official time of the shooting on Shasta. Anything publicized early on could be inaccurate anyway. I'm planning to use 2322.88. Just wanted to check to see if you felt there was a reason to disregard the security camera time.

I think that's an accurate time

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Also, depending on what kind of vague ideas they had in mind with respect to "getting" him -- perhaps they intended to yell at him and brandish or fire the gun in his general direction to scare him, then take off before he could do anything to them?
Perhaps they felt like the car provided some protection? Or they felt like they might need the car to get away fast once they had done whatever they had in mind to do?
Or maybe for some unknown reason they did make that roundabout trip BM described before ending up at the park? Maybe they believed that on foot at that time of night they would be more memorable if anyone saw them, while most people don't particularly notice cars driving by?

That's what gets me as I think whatever was going on that night that the Buick was completely blindsided when it got fired upon. I don't think the Buick had murderous intent when it set out armed, but they planned on doing lots of threats and bluster to make their intended victim think they'd kill them.

Given the chase route described by both BM and EN, and EN's friends saying that he saw the car "in the school parking lot" and "driving around the school," we can be pretty positive that the Buick was at or near the school when the chase started. That's about as far I can go in nailing down a specific location -- which is not very specific.

That's true. I narrow the start of the fatal chase to the NE side of the school on Ducharme.

 

[Miss Muffet]

I think that's an accurate time

Me too. I'm confident the car is an Audi sportback. A7 or RS7. Not most recent model.

 

[Miss Muffet]

That's what gets me as I think whatever was going on that night that the Buick was completely blindsided when it got fired upon. I don't think the Buick had murderous intent when it set out armed, but they planned on doing lots of threats and bluster to make their intended victim think they'd kill them.

Blindsided reminds me of a problem I have with the timeline where BM places the buick when he noticed the Audi stopped at the first shooting scene is essentially the same place TM and KM stopped to switch seats at 2250. That's too much of a coincidence. But a hell of a lot of time transpires between 2250 and 2322:88 that's unexplainable if the first shooting really happened at 2250.

It couldn't have happened at 22:50 because LE knows the time of the first shooting. There would have been 911 calls. I'm also confident LE bothered to check camera video from streets all over the M's route between 2210 and 2322:88. LE didn't meticulously get the details of the driving routes for the heck of it and not look for evidence to verify the buick was roughly where KM and BM said it was in their statements.

That's true. I narrow the start of the fatal chase to the NE side of the school on Ducharme.

How much time did you allow for the first shooting? It couldn't have been more than thirty seconds to a minute and half for EN to fire those shots depending on how fast he shot them. LE found 6 cartridges at Villa Monterey and Alta.

On a side note, I just noticed the bullet with blood on it at Mt. Shasta. If a bullet remained in TM's head, doesn't that mean she had another bullet wound? As far as I know, nobody else was wounded at the scene.

 

[al66pine]

....On a side note, I just noticed the bullet with blood on it at Mt. Shasta. If a bullet remained in TM's head, doesn't that mean she had another bullet wound? As far as I know, nobody else was wounded at the scene.

Miss M
Good catch.

Have we heard any whispers about autopsy report or when it might be released (if at all pre-trial)??
Anyone? Thx in adv.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Miss M
Good catch.

Have we heard any whispers about autopsy report or when it might be released (if at all pre-trial)??
Anyone? Thx in adv.

I'm sure it will be eternity just to drive us all crazy!!! :tantrum: