GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #6

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  • #701
IDK. If I've got a gun and someone is shooting their gun at me and I attempt to load/chamber my gun, I'm pretty sure I want to shoot. Otherwise, why am I doing that?

I call that getting ready to shoot if you feel it's necessary to protect yourself. I wouldn't call it "wanting to shoot" at someone. It may not be safe to shoot so holding fire is a prudent thing to do.

Collateral damage can happen when shooting in a populated area. JMO.
 
  • #702
It appears to me that Brandon felt that returing fire during the first shooting incident was unsafe. They decided to go home instead. That's understandable to me. The only problem was that Norwsch and Andrews didn't do the same. Instead they went to the Meyers home and Tammy was killed. JMO.
 
  • #703
Actually this goes back to before the founding of our system. Juries have the right to jury nullification, though it has been watered down somewhat lately. From Chief Justice John Jay in a 1794 SCOTUS decision: "It may not be amiss, here, Gentlemen, to remind you of the good old rule, that on questions of fact, it is the province of the jury, on questions of law, it is the province of the court to decide. But it must be observed that by the same law, which recognizes this reasonable distribution of jurisdiction, you have nevertheless a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy. On this, and on every other occasion, however, we have no doubt, you will pay that respect, which is due to the opinion of the court: For, as on the one hand, it is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumbable, that the court are the best judges of the law. But still both objects are lawfully, within your power of decision." Jurors who vote for lesser charges because they feel certain law's penalties are excessive are within their rights as a juror where a juror in fully fulfilling their duties can vote for lesser charges even if they think the defendant is guilty of the greater charges. Usually jurors having these rights isn't advertised as this goes back to the 1895 SCOTUS decision of Sparf v United States where SCOTUS ruled that judges didn't have to tell jurors they had these rights, but whether or not the juries are informed of these rights, it has been repeatedly upheld that jurors have these rights.

Reducio ad absurdum if a state passed a law that made jaywalking a capital offense, juries in that state would be within their legal rights of acquitting people of jaywalking even if they juries believe the state proved the accused broke the law.

As an aside, have you read "The Ordeal of Edward Bushell"? Fascinating book about the case of William Penn & William Mead that firmly established the rights of an independent jury and jury nullification. The judge actually locked up the jury without food or water, and fined them for contempt of court for not returning a verdict of guilty. I value the rights we have against abuses by the government, and I'm grateful for people like Edward Bushell and the other members of that jury who suffered personal harm in helping to establish those rights.
 
  • #704
I think you're probably right. But I also think that the Claus Bros just might be able to raise enough reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury even without some earth-shattering reveal. There's a significant amount of ambiguity in the accounts of what EN told his friends and Mogg. There's plenty of of reason to doubt or disbelieve anything BM & KM might say.

If the Clauses can put forward plausible, believable alternative scenarios that comport with the evidence, that might be enough for acquittal. In fact, if there are plausible, believable alternative scenarios that comport with the evidence, then acquittal is what should happen — because if the state proves its case beyond a reasonable doubt, that means that, by definition, there are no plausible alternative scenarios.

For me the key piece of evidence that simultaneously does it for me to in both demonstrating why I don't see M1 but why I don't see acquittal is the CCTV footage right by EN's home and in fact part of the footage shows EN's home. The footage demonstrates that EN did indeed go by his home first rather than heading straight to Mt Shasta, which to me is very important in showing his first thoughts after the Villa Monterey shooting based on corroborating physical evidence were of his home rather than going to Mt Shasta to shoot. Also the CCTV video shows that they're checking to be sure that the car and/or gunmen on the streets aren't around on Cherry River by shining lights on the houses before turning on Carmel Peak which again would show that he ended up on Mt Shasta as part of checking around his neighborhood to be sure that there weren't any gunmen on the loose instead of planning from the outset to go to Mt Shasta to shoot a car that had retreated. With that cases can be made for both M1 as well as acquittal, just I don't see those two outcomes as high probability. Of those low probability outcomes I do however rank acquittal higher than M1 given how I could see the Claus Brothers laying out everything the Meyers did and comparing that to what he is accused of to show how similarly they acted in addition to other such things, which could work but I don't think would work. EN's stated reason for shooting should not get him M1, but shouldn't get him acquitted either as you can't do what he did in response to a bare threat where he voluntarily put himself there...and I'm saying this as someone who absolutely believes EN was afraid and was trying to protect his family because there's just certain things you can't do (which is also why I take the Meyers to task for what they did, where I also believe they were afraid of something and trying to protect their family).
 
  • #705
If EN went by his home first, doesn't it mean he can't claim he was trying to get home but ended up at the Meyers instead?
Meyers were not at his home.
If he deliberately went after them, that goes to premeditation.
 
  • #706
As an aside, have you read "The Ordeal of Edward Bushell"? Fascinating book about the case of William Penn & William Mead that firmly established the rights of an independent jury and jury nullification. The judge actually locked up the jury without food or water, and fined them for contempt of court for not returning a verdict of guilty. I value the rights we have against abuses by the government, and I'm grateful for people like Edward Bushell and the other members of that jury who suffered personal harm in helping to establish those rights.

Well, if I were on the jury, there is no way would I "nullify" something for an alleged drug dealer. No way, no how.
 
  • #707
If EN went by his home first, doesn't it mean he can't claim he was trying to get home but ended up at the Meyers instead?
Meyers were not at his home.
If he deliberately went after them, that goes to premeditation.

You mean, like the Meyerses deliberately going after EN goes to premeditation? :thinking: Good thing for EN that he had a gun with him that night, or he'd probably be dead.
 
  • #708
As an aside, have you read "The Ordeal of Edward Bushell"? Fascinating book about the case of William Penn & William Mead that firmly established the rights of an independent jury and jury nullification. The judge actually locked up the jury without food or water, and fined them for contempt of court for not returning a verdict of guilty. I value the rights we have against abuses by the government, and I'm grateful for people like Edward Bushell and the other members of that jury who suffered personal harm in helping to establish those rights.

I have not read it, but there's a teleplay in the public domain about John Pete Zinger where his case was simultaneously about freedom of the press and jury notification in colonial America:
https://archive.org/details/StudioOneTheTrialOfJohnPeterZengerPaulNickell
 
  • #709
If EN went by his home first, doesn't it mean he can't claim he was trying to get home but ended up at the Meyers instead?
Meyers were not at his home.
If he deliberately went after them, that goes to premeditation.

In my opinion both Nowsch and Andrews knew exactly where they were going that night. Nowsch definintly knew the area and wasn't asleep during the drive. He was an active shooter right before going to the Meyers home so I doubt he wasn't paying attention to where Andrews was driving. JMO.
 
  • #710
If EN went by his home first, doesn't it mean he can't claim he was trying to get home but ended up at the Meyers instead?

That's why I see acquittal as low probability.

If he deliberately went after them, that goes to premeditation.

The footage shows them checking the neighborhood to see that no one is there, not that they have their designs on Mt Shasta. I see it as possible for a jury to find M1, just not probable given how a brief a period this was between the first shooting that makes it less likely while the footage also shows they aren't aggressively pursuing the Buick but are acting more defensively. Also with the first shooting it isn't necessarily whether BM used his gun in a threatening manner, but whether or not a jury would interpret that EN could have viewed BM's gun had been used either intentionally or accidentally in a way a reasonable person would view as threatening (given how it is undisputed that BM war armed, I think the odds are high for the jury to give that interpretation to that event) combined with the undisputed chase as a provocative preceding acts. Given the preceding acts and the shortness in time between the two shootings I think EN's emotional state being viewed by the jury as him having an inability to coolly reflect but instead his actions were sudden out of panic and fear. It's not that it can't be argued that he could coolly reflect and that he wasn't experiencing a significant emotional state, just I don't think that is likely to prevail with a jury. I don't think anyone on this board would have had the ability to collect themselves and coolly reflect seconds after they thought someone threatened them with a gun and chased them in an armed car and were involved in a shooting trying to protect yourself from your armed pursuers...you could make decisions, just not M1-level decisions (but you still could get substantial prison time like M2).
 
  • #711
Hi, I'm new...sort of...(I've lurked on this site for years)...signed up to comment on this case.

I think it's entirely possible that emotional states will have a great deal to do with this case.

EN has several things that, if allowed to be introduced, could have a huge impact on how much sympathy he garners with a jury.

He is younger than either of the Meyers by at least five years...he's barely an adult - and he looks it.

He has the skull fracture, child abuse, suicide of a parent, "growth" issues, a stint in a "behavioral school" that has been accused of abuse, alleged bullying which was supposedly enough to scare him into getting a legal weapon to protect himself, reported conversations PRIOR to this event where he states that people have threatened him and his family/pets...all before any of the events of this particular evening.

He was not driving the vehicle (and so far there is no proof he was giving directions - do panicked people who are in fear for their lives pay attention to whether or not the driver is following directions/going the right way - or do they focus on the people who are out to get them), he allegedly did not have his gun loaded prior to feeling as though he were being followed by an armed person, it is possible there was a wrong turn involved which placed him in a position of feeling as though he was driven into a dangerous corner (cul-de-sac) with little or no protection from the people he thought were trying to hurt him.

He is small, young, and has had a difficult childhood. It is easy for me to think that there are people who will find him sympathetic and feel that he was defending himself from older, bigger, more aggressive people and was not in a pre-meditated frame of mind without irrefutable proof - especially since we do not definitively know who fired first at the cul-de-sac.

He is "alleged" to have sold drugs - just like TM has been "alleged" to use them. Neither of these things have been proven so far and I wouldn't put any stock in, or penalize a person for, alleged activities until I had something more than hearsay from random neighborhood people. JMHO.
 
  • #712
Hi, I'm new...sort of...(I've lurked on this site for years)...signed up to comment on this case.

I think it's entirely possible that emotional states will have a great deal to do with this case.

EN has several things that, if allowed to be introduced, could have a huge impact on how much sympathy he garners with a jury.

He is younger than either of the Meyers by at least five years...he's barely an adult - and he looks it.

He has the skull fracture, child abuse, suicide of a parent, "growth" issues, a stint in a "behavioral school" that has been accused of abuse, alleged bullying which was supposedly enough to scare him into getting a legal weapon to protect himself, reported conversations PRIOR to this event where he states that people have threatened him and his family/pets...all before any of the events of this particular evening.

He was not driving the vehicle (and so far there is no proof he was giving directions - do panicked people who are in fear for their lives pay attention to whether or not the driver is following directions/going the right way - or do they focus on the people who are out to get them), he allegedly did not have his gun loaded prior to feeling as though he were being followed by an armed person, it is possible there was a wrong turn involved which placed him in a position of feeling as though he was driven into a dangerous corner (cul-de-sac) with little or no protection from the people he thought were trying to hurt him.

He is small, young, and has had a difficult childhood. It is easy for me to think that there are people who will find him sympathetic and feel that he was defending himself from older, bigger, more aggressive people and was not in a pre-meditated frame of mind without irrefutable proof - especially since we do not definitively know who fired first at the cul-de-sac.

He is "alleged" to have sold drugs - just like TM has been "alleged" to use them. Neither of these things have been proven so far and I wouldn't put any stock in, or penalize a person for, alleged activities until I had something more than hearsay from random neighborhood people. JMHO.

Hi, Meddlesome, great first post! Glad to have you join the conversation. (And what took you so long? ;) )

You make a lot of very good points. Yes, I think mental and emotional states will have a great deal of bearing on how this case turns out (assuming it goes to trial). Of EN as well as DA, BM — and KM, if it turns out she was in the car. I don't know if any speculation will be allowed with respect to the mom's emotional state, but certainly her behavior will be examined closely, giving us clues to her emotional state.

And you might well be right, too, about EN garnering sympathy with a jury. Superficially, at first glance, he's not a very sympathetic character: local neighborhood drug dealer, rumors about violence and "going after" people, etc. But there's a lot there to generate sympathy, too. I don't know how much of that will be permissible in the trial phase; probably all or most of it will be admissible in the sentencing phase (if there's a conviction), mitigating for a lighter sentence.

Your comments about his sympathy factor sparked a thought in me: TM supposedly hated bullies. Well, haven't we heard that EN was bullied? He was "robbed and robbed" according to one neighbor. He was small and weak compared to his peers. He had been threatened. TM should have had (and allegedly did have) a lot of sympathy for someone in that position; and yet, she took her armed son to go out to stalk him, threaten him, and chase him. I still don't get this vigilante attitude that's been attributed to her.
 
  • #713
Thanks, Sonjay! It took me this long partly because I had a hard time coming up with a good screen name. All my favorites were taken! LOL! Plus this is one of those cases that sucks a person in. Eventually, I had to say what I've been thinking because no one else had yet. (Usually someone does. :cheers: )

I agree that TM is an enigma. We have no way to know what she was really thinking or attempting to do. If this truly was a case of mistaken identity, it is a horribly tragic one. Otherwise, there is something MAJOR that is being left out. I can't help wonder about how long it had been since TM "counseled" EN. Did they have a falling out about something? Bob's comments seem to lend the idea that there was bad blood between the Ms and EN at some point. I'd also like to know *who* was bullying EN.

It will be interesting to see what HARD evidence is presented. I feel that there is a HUGE amount of room for "reasonable doubt" without solid proof in this case.
 
  • #714
Thanks, Sonjay! It took me this long partly because I had a hard time coming up with a good screen name. All my favorites were taken! LOL!

I agree that TM is an enigma. We have no way to know what she was really thinking or attempting to do. If this truly was a case of mistaken identity, it is a horribly tragic one. Otherwise, there is something MAJOR that is being left out. I can't help wonder about how long it had been since TM "counseled" EN. Did they have a falling out about something? Bob's comments seem to lend the idea that there was bad blood between the Ms and EN at some point. I'd also like to know *who* was bullying EN.

It will be interesting to see what HARD evidence is presented. I feel that there is a HUGE amount of room for "reasonable doubt" without solid proof in this case.

Reasonable doubt on what? EN admitted shooting at the person who was running away, because he didn't want to get this person to get away. I fail to understand where the reasonable doubt could be coming from in this case. He was shooting from the moving vehicle, fired multiple shots. Anybody in that area could have been shot that night. If that doesn't show depraved indifference for human life, I don't know what does.
 
  • #715
  • #716
Hi, I'm new...sort of...(I've lurked on this site for years)...signed up to comment on this case.

I think it's entirely possible that emotional states will have a great deal to do with this case.

EN has several things that, if allowed to be introduced, could have a huge impact on how much sympathy he garners with a jury.

He is younger than either of the Meyers by at least five years...he's barely an adult - and he looks it.

He has the skull fracture, child abuse, suicide of a parent, "growth" issues, a stint in a "behavioral school" that has been accused of abuse, alleged bullying which was supposedly enough to scare him into getting a legal weapon to protect himself, reported conversations PRIOR to this event where he states that people have threatened him and his family/pets...all before any of the events of this particular evening.

He was not driving the vehicle (and so far there is no proof he was giving directions - do panicked people who are in fear for their lives pay attention to whether or not the driver is following directions/going the right way - or do they focus on the people who are out to get them), he allegedly did not have his gun loaded prior to feeling as though he were being followed by an armed person, it is possible there was a wrong turn involved which placed him in a position of feeling as though he was driven into a dangerous corner (cul-de-sac) with little or no protection from the people he thought were trying to hurt him.

He is small, young, and has had a difficult childhood. It is easy for me to think that there are people who will find him sympathetic and feel that he was defending himself from older, bigger, more aggressive people and was not in a pre-meditated frame of mind without irrefutable proof - especially since we do not definitively know who fired first at the cul-de-sac.

He is "alleged" to have sold drugs - just like TM has been "alleged" to use them. Neither of these things have been proven so far and I wouldn't put any stock in, or penalize a person for, alleged activities until I had something more than hearsay from random neighborhood people. JMHO.

Exquisitely well put. Welcome to Websleuths.
 
  • #717
In grand jury testimony relating what Nowsch revealed during his recollection of the events of that night, Det. Mogg said:

"Eventually the green car leaves the area. He said he got into the vehicle with a friend of his whom he described as a white male. He was sitting, Nowsch was sitting in the front passenger seat, the other male was the driver, and

he describes the car as a cream colored four door vehicle.

He said they were sitting on the side of the street when all of a sudden the green car came around behind them again, and they pulled away, he said the green car started chasing them."

Source: March 5, 2015 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS (Grand Jury)
Page 97, Lines 17 - 25.
 
  • #718
Brandon Meyers' grand jury testimony:

"Q. And at some point as you're driving down that street did your mom indicate to you that she might have seen or believed she had seen a vehicle that was involved in the prior incident?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember where that was, what street you were on?
A. I believe it's called Starboard.
Q. And can you describe the vehicle to me?

A. It's a gray four door, tinted windows."

Source: March 25, 2015 - REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS (Grand Jury)
Page 28, Lines 16 - 25
 
  • #719
Det. Mogg & DA Stanton

Tammy Meyers then drove home and called for her son to help look for the man who had threatened her, according to grand jury testimony.

When Meyers spotted Andrews’ silver Audi, she believed it was the same car she encountered earlier and started to follow.

“Ms. Meyers ultimately was mistaken,” Stanton said. “Coincidentally, now you have kind of a series of dominoes falling with Ms. Meyers pulling behind what she thinks is the earlier car.”

Nowsch was in the passenger seat of Andrews’ car with a Ruger .45-caliber handgun.


Luis Muldonado, who has lived on the same street as Andrews since 2013

Muldonado said the neighborhood is peaceful, with residents who are friendly but largely keep to themselves. He said he knew Andrews, who would often stop by. The two talked mostly about cars.


Muldonado said he has seen Andrews driving two different sedans since meeting him in 2013, but never saw the silver Audi authorities say Andrews drove the day of the shooting.

SOURCE: http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/erich-nowsch-s-suspected-getaway-driver-arrested
 
  • #720
one has to wonder IF the car that EN refused to enter at the school could have been a silver Audi
 
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