GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #8

[Miss Muffet]

It's clear from the second photo and the diagram that BM never ran towards the house. If he did run towards the house, there was no reason to run back out into the street to take cover behind the truck. Save cover was closer by continuing to the house.

It doesn't even look like he took cover behind the truck when he shot. It looks like he stood in the street and started shooting at the Audi like a gangster. It's more likely he ran to the truck for cover after the Audi returned fire to his three shots.

BM fired his weapon first on Mt. Shasta.

 

[sonjay]

It's clear from the second photo and the diagram that BM never ran towards the house. If he did run towards the house, there was no reason to run back out into the street to take cover behind the truck. Save cover was closer by continuing to the house.

It doesn't even look like he took cover behind the truck when he shot. It looks like he stood in the street and started shooting at the Audi like a gangster. It's more likely he ran to the truck for cover after the Audi returned fire to his three shots.

BM fired his weapon first on Mt. Shasta.

I agree. If BM fired the shots that resulted in the shell casings landing where they did, I don't think BM ever ran toward the house.

But we have Mogg's testimony about what EN told him about that night. Mogg testified that EN said he saw "someone running whom he describes as a male with a beard from maybe the passenger side of the car toward the house."

First, and this just hit me.... if EN saw BM running from the passenger side toward the house, how does that correlate with BM's claim that he ran around to the driver's side and tried to pull his mom out of the car? According to BM's testimony, the silver car turned onto Mt. Shasta when BM was already on the driver's side trying to pull his mom out of the car. That's when he allegedly shoved his mom back into the car and ran toward the house. So EN would have seen BM running from the driver's side toward the house, not from the passenger side.

So maybe BM did run toward the house from the passenger side. Maybe it's just more hero stories that he ran to the driver's side and tried to pull his mom out of the car.

So who fired those shots that landed out in the cul de sac behind the truck in the street?

 

[Miss Muffet]

But we have Mogg's testimony about what EN told him about that night. Mogg testified that EN said he saw "someone running whom he describes as a male with a beard from maybe the passenger side of the car toward the house."

First, and this just hit me.... if EN saw BM running from the passenger side toward the house, how does that correlate with BM's claim that he ran around to the driver's side and tried to pull his mom out of the car? According to BM's testimony, the silver car turned onto Mt. Shasta when BM was already on the driver's side trying to pull his mom out of the car. That's when he allegedly shoved his mom back into the car and ran toward the house. So EN would have seen BM running from the driver's side toward the house, not from the passenger side.

So maybe BM did run toward the house from the passenger side. Maybe it's just more hero stories that he ran to the driver's side and tried to pull his mom out of the car.

So who fired those shots that landed out in the cul de sac behind the truck in the street?

BM. Look at the diagram again. If BM jumped out of the passenger side and ran towards the house, he wouldn't have ended up where the shell casings are to get cover. If he was already running towards the house from the buick, the house was closer cover than the truck for seeking cover, and he wasn't even covered by the truck when he was shooting. After he fired his weapon three times, he ran over to the truck for cover because the Audi returned fire. Then he looked over and saw his mother dead.

He either never went to the driver's side of the car or never ran towards the house. Since the shell casings place him as being in the open, it seems he was standing and shooting gangster style like Rambo. He wasn't behind the truck shielding himself like police officers do.

So here's the other problem. In the car, there isn't just a loose bullet at the passenger seat, there is a full cartridge or whatever you call those things. I'm not sure what I'm looking at there, is it a second thingy you push into a gun to load more bullets? Whatever it is, it's clear BM didn't just take a gun with him that night. He took an extra ammo with him. Since it's already loaded, I don't believe that loose bullet is the result of his loading his ammo while in the car. I believe that loose bullet is because he tried to fire his weapon at the first scene.

 

[PaperDoll]

When BM said "went outside to the front to, towards the car, told my sister to get inside, walked out towards the car which is right exactly in front of the steps where the driveway is", I was looking at Google map of the Meyers home, and I do not see any steps from the driveway, or walkway, except the curb and maybe that is what he meant??????

 

[PaperDoll]

I wonder if they found the bullets from BM's gun, they have the cartridge/casings marked but they don't have where the actual bullets landed unless I'm missing something. I only see one bullet marking and that is in the driveway, I'm sure that is the bullet that killed TM. EN fired off shots and I don't see markers where the other bullets were recovered. Am I missing something?

 

[sonjay]

BM. Look at the diagram again. If BM jumped out of the passenger side and ran towards the house, he wouldn't have ended up where the shell casings are to get cover. If he was already running towards the house from the buick, the house was closer cover than the truck for seeking cover, and he wasn't even covered by the truck when he was shooting. After he fired his weapon three times, he ran over to the truck for cover because the Audi returned fire. Then he looked over and saw his mother dead.

He either never went to the driver's side of the car or never ran towards the house. Since the shell casings place him as being in the open, it seems he was standing and shooting gangster style like Rambo. He wasn't behind the truck shielding himself like police officers do.

BBM. That was pretty much the point of my previous post.

IF BM fired those shots, THEN that means he didn't run to the house. I agreed with you, and I stated exactly that.

But I went a little further than that. I went on to quote Mogg's testimony that EN said he saw someone with a beard running from the passenger side of the car toward the house. That suggests that perhaps BM wasn't entirely truthful in his GJ testimony that he ran to the driver's side and tried to get his mom out of the car. It suggests that BM ran directly from the passenger side of the car toward the house.

So.... IF EN saw BM running from the passenger side of the car toward the house, THEN that means BM wasn't the person who fired those three shots. And if that's the case, then who did fire those shots?

 

[Solitaryone]

The way the Buick looks, it seems like TM drove into the cul-de-sac and stopped, and then what? If it wasn't BM that shot, could it have been TM who did?

 

[sonjay]

When BM said "went outside to the front to, towards the car, told my sister to get inside, walked out towards the car which is right exactly in front of the steps where the driveway is", I was looking at Google map of the Meyers home, and I do not see any steps from the driveway, or walkway, except the curb and maybe that is what he meant??????

Yeah, now that you mention it, I don't see any steps anywhere. I had thought he was maybe referring to a step or steps from the front door to the walkway, but no, there are no steps there.

I wonder if they found the bullets from BM's gun, they have the cartridge/casings marked but they don't have where the actual bullets landed unless I'm missing something. I only see one bullet marking and that is in the driveway, I'm sure that is the bullet that killed TM. EN fired off shots and I don't see markers where the other bullets were recovered. Am I missing something?

My guess is, they didn't recover any of the bullets from BM's gun, nor any others from EN's gun. Bullets are small & hard to find and could have ended up anywhere.

The news stories showed an entry hole in the wall at the back of the driveway. I thought the #11 marker might be marking that. I'm not positive I'm right.

 

[sonjay]

So here's the other problem. In the car, there isn't just a loose bullet at the passenger seat, there is a full cartridge or whatever you call those things. I'm not sure what I'm looking at there, is it a second thingy you push into a gun to load more bullets? Whatever it is, it's clear BM didn't just take a gun with him that night. He took an extra ammo with him. Since it's already loaded, I don't believe that loose bullet is the result of his loading his ammo while in the car. I believe that loose bullet is because he tried to fire his weapon at the first scene.

The sort-of rectangular light grey hole-like thing that you see at the far right in this picture is the bottom of the pistol's handgrip. That's the opening that the magazine goes into. (The magazine is the thingy you push into the gun.)

So what we see in this picture is a gun without a magazine, one magazine, and one loose round sitting on the magazine. There's not an extra magazine. That's not to say BM didn't have an extra magazine with him, but there is not an extra magazine in this picture.

I believe it's standard police procedure to unload any guns found at a crime scene. Either BM removed the magazine before LE got there, or LE removed the magazine when they got there but before this picture was taken.

Which raises a big question in my mind. BM had fired his gun. That means there was a round in the chamber after he fired. (This is what semi-automatic means; when you fire, the gun automatically ejects the spent casing and loads another round into the chamber.)

Everyone who knows anything about semi-autos knows that to really unload the gun, you have to drop the magazine, then rack the slide to remove the round that's in the chamber. So if LE had unloaded this gun before taking the picture, there should be two loose rounds: the loose round found in the passenger seat, plus the loose round that they would have ejected from the gun after removing the magazine.

I don't know if that means anything. Perhaps they just didn't include the other loose round in the picture.

 

[sonjay]

The way the Buick looks, it seems like TM drove into the cul-de-sac and stopped, and then what?

Then.... she was trying to get out of the car to get to safety, and her son shoved her back into the car. I'm still scratching my head over that.

If it wasn't BM that shot, could it have been <selfsnip> who did?

I think you can get in trouble for suggesting that. But yeah, I think BM may not have been the person who fired the 9mm. EN saw him running from the passenger side of the car toward the house.

 

[Miss Muffet]

What doesn't make sense about the Buick appearing as if TM and BM didn't have time to park the car and were hurried is the Audi in the video is driving very slowly on EN's street. That's how we know the Audi wasn't in hot pursuit of the Buick, right on the Buick's tail end. So I can't figure out why the Buick isn't parked and TM and BM were still outside when the Audi arrived.

 

[al66pine]

Pix from MissMuffet's post:

The sort-of rectangular light grey hole-like thing that you see at the far right in this picture is the bottom of the pistol's handgrip. That's the opening that the magazine goes into. (The magazine is the thingy you push into the gun.)
So what we see in this picture is a gun without a magazine, one magazine, and one loose round sitting on the magazine. There's not an extra magazine. That's not to say BM didn't have an extra magazine with him, but there is not an extra magazine in this picture.
I believe it's standard police procedure to unload any guns found at a crime scene. Either BM removed the magazine before LE got there, or LE removed the magazine when they got there but before this picture was taken.
Which raises a big question in my mind. BM had fired his gun. That means there was a round in the chamber after he fired. (This is what semi-automatic means; when you fire, the gun automatically ejects the spent casing and loads another round into the chamber.)
Everyone who knows anything about semi-autos knows that to really unload the gun, you have to drop the magazine, then rack the slide to remove the round that's in the chamber.

So if LE had unloaded this gun before taking the picture, there should be two loose rounds: the loose round found in the passenger seat, plus the loose round that they would have ejected from the gun after removing the magazine.
I don't know if that means anything. Perhaps they just didn't include the other loose round in the picture.

bbm

sonjay
Appears to be only one cartridge in the mag (& one laying atop/beside the mag).
Agreeing w ^ your sentence I bolded.
Seems likely LE w unload gun at scene. Before or after photos?
Speculation, w no basis - w/ BrM unload gun, by properly dropping mag & ejecting bullet from chamber? If so, why?

Q1
Was this pix was taken in Buick? Where, on console, or floor of front or back? Or ?
Q2
Can you tell what props up the mag, to stand on edge (kinda like a coin standing on edge)? If just leaning, against what?
Ditto the gun. I can't tell. Kinda funny position for gun to be left in by someone shooting?
Q3
Can you tell how many cartridges this mag holds? Looks long to me.
I've forgotten how many casings were found on streetfor this gun.
I wonder if the evening started w mag fully loaded? Plus one in chamber? Or not?Or a few extra in BrM's pocket.
For ex. in loading mag, there were a few extra in box, and to empty it, he put the few 'leftovers' in pants pocket.
I do not recall any stmt about BrM having extra mag that evening, but not necessarily something that w/be in rpt or at GJ.

IDK if any of my Q?s above mean anything.

 

[al66pine]

What doesn't make sense about the Buick appearing
as if TM and BM didn't have time to park the car and were hurried is the Audi in the video is driving very slowly on EN's street. That's how we know the Audi wasn't in hot pursuit of the Buick, right on the Buick's tail end.
So I can't figure out why the Buick isn't parked and TM and BM were still outside when the Audi arrived.

bbm

MissM
Good point about Buick not being 'parked.'
Is it poss silver car following Buick was going faster than when captured on surv vid? Maybe following more closely.

If ^image is ~to scale, w 2 vehicles plus cargo trailer on driveway, could Buick park there too? Doubtful, imo.
Maybe partly on drive, partly off drive, partly on walkway to house? IDK.
Looks like it w/be tricky, or at least tight, for Buick to parallel-park on street between M drive & neighbor drive,
while still allowing vehicles from both houses to exit drive & reenter from street.
Did M fam usu leave Buick on street, ~ per ^ image, but more lined up w trailer, which w/might not be moved often??

Just wondering.

 

[sonjay]

Pix from MissMuffet's post:

Appears to be only one cartridge in the mag (& one laying atop/beside the mag).

The magazine is essentially a box, with a spring at the bottom that pushes each round upward as the gun is fired. That could be a full magazine for all we can tell from the picture, because we can only see the top cartridge.

Seems likely LE w unload gun at scene. Before or after photos?

I don't know. I would think they would take some photos before touching the firearm, but that when they touch it, the very first thing they would do would be to unload it. And they might take additional photos after unloading it. But I don't know.

Speculation, w no basis - w/ BrM unload gun, by properly dropping mag & ejecting bullet from chamber? If so, why?

No idea.

Q1
Was this pix was taken in Buick? Where, on console, or floor of front or back? Or ?

It's kind of an odd picture. It's so close-up that you can't really tell where the gun was. It sort of looks to me like it was taken on the hood of the car; it looks like the magazine is leaning backwards against the windshield, and the gun balanced upside down so that the bottom of the grip is visible. That looks to me like a windshield wiper under the magazine. I think maybe this photo was "staged" if you will, to show the gun, the magazine and the loose cartridge. I would guess that if it's staged, they took photos earlier showing exactly what they found where when they first showed up. I can't imagine that BM would have dropped the mag, ejected the round in the chamber, and then staged the gun, mag and round in this position while waiting for police to show up.

Q2
Can you tell what props up the mag, to stand on edge (kinda like a coin standing on edge)? If just leaning, against what?
Ditto the gun. I can't tell. Kinda funny position for gun to be left in by someone shooting?

I think it's on the hood of the car. That's just a guess. I don't know why it would be on the hood of the car, but that's what it looks like to me. It looks like the magazine is leaning against the front of the windshield.

Q3
Can you tell how many cartridges this mag holds? Looks long to me.

If this is the gun BM posted on his FB page last year, it's a Beretta M9A1. Checking the Beretta web site, I find that the standard magazine that comes with it can hold 10 rounds. You can also buy it with a 15-round magazine, and I'm sure there are aftermarket magazines available for it.

When I looked again at the photo BM posted of his new gun on FB last year, I noticed that it has a laser sight attached underneath the barrel. I hadn't noticed that before.

I've forgotten how many casings were found on streetfor this gun.

Three

I wonder if the evening started w mag fully loaded? Plus one in chamber? Or not?Or a few extra in BrM's pocket.
For ex. in loading mag, there were a few extra in box, and to empty it, he put the few 'leftovers' in pants pocket.
I do not recall any stmt about BrM having extra mag that evening, but not necessarily something that w/be in rpt or at GJ.

We don't know any of that.

 

[Miss Muffet]

MissM
Good point about Buick not being 'parked.'
Is it poss silver car following Buick was going faster than when captured on surv vid? Maybe following more closely.

It's not possible. The Audi is going at a slow speed and using a spot light to search the properties along the road as it passes. It's not high speed and it's not paying attention to a car in front of it as if it's in pursuit of anything. It looks like it's searching for people hiding between houses or a car hidden off the road somewhere. That indicates to me that Audi didn't have the Buick in sight. I don't believe it showed up immediately after the Meyers arrived at their house.

TM and BM were up to something else IMO. BM either lied about them driving directly home from the first shooting scene, or he lied about what he and TM did when they arrived home.

Looks like it w/be tricky, or at least tight, for Buick to parallel-park on street between M drive & neighbor drive,
while still allowing vehicles from both houses to exit drive & reenter from street.
Did M fam usu leave Buick on street, ~ per ^ image, but more lined up w trailer, which w/might not be moved often??

The white truck is parked on the street in front of the grass part of the Meyer's property. The Buick could have easily parked there if they had wanted to park. They wouldn't leave their car just sitting out in the middle of the road like that normally.

 

[PaperDoll]

bbm

MissM
Good point about Buick not being 'parked.'
Is it poss silver car following Buick was going faster than when captured on surv vid? Maybe following more closely.

If ^image is ~to scale, w 2 vehicles plus cargo trailer on driveway, could Buick park there too? Doubtful, imo.
Maybe partly on drive, partly off drive, partly on walkway to house? IDK.
Looks like it w/be tricky, or at least tight, for Buick to parallel-park on street between M drive & neighbor drive,
while still allowing vehicles from both houses to exit drive & reenter from street.
Did M fam usu leave Buick on street, ~ per ^ image, but more lined up w trailer, which w/might not be moved often??

Just wondering.

I can see them parking the Buick that way since there doesn't seem to be room for them in the driveway. Their house is located at the end so I don't think they would be blocking anyone except cars in their own driveway. Also, they were fearful after the 1st shooting and wanted to get in the house instead of trying to park some other way, IMO

I also agree that the Audi most likely was going faster than the video can capture. Again, and I could be wrong on this but I do believe the Audi took the short cut because I believe they saw the Buick pulling into the cul-de-sac and that is why the Meyers didn't have time to get in the house. IMO!

 

[PaperDoll]

Another thought about the video of the Audi; after the cul-de-sac shooting would it be possible the Audi decided to drive by Mt. Shasta to see the damage that was done? BM mentioned after the shooting in the cul-de-sac that the Audi backed out and went Southbound on Carmel Peak.. Maybe the Audi decided to go back around to see the damage??? Just a thought..

 

[PaperDoll]

This is also why I think the Audi saw the Buick going into the Cul-de-sac. From the Criminal Complaint:

"Nowsch told Altergott the green car tried to get away and they followed it into a cul-de-sac where he loaded another clip."

 

[Miss Muffet]

Why weren't twenty-two 45 shell casings found on Mt Shasta Circle?

 

[al66pine]

sonjay,
Thanks for your thorough, detailed response. My comments below in green.

If this is the gun BM posted on his FB page last year, it's a Beretta M9A1. Checking the Beretta web site, I find that the standard magazine that comes with it can hold 10 rounds. You can also buy it with a 15-round magazine, and I'm sure there are aftermarket magazines available for it.
Mag in beretta website pix below IIUC is compatible w BrM's M9A1, and
to me, top of BrM's mag in LE pix looks a lot like mag below -- w a notch that lets us see a second cartridge in mag.
To see notch in BrM's mag, on my tablet, I enlarged LE pix to about 8" x 12".
From http://www.berettausa.com/en-us/beretta-92fs-magazine-9mm-20-rds/1385979-1/
Trying to say, if there was a second cartridge in BrM's mag when pix was taken, maybe we could see it,
the way we see the second cartridge in mag below,

The magazine is essentially a box, with a spring at the bottom that pushes each round upward as the gun is fired. That could be a full magazine for all we can tell from the picture, because we can only see the top cartridge.

If BrM fired 3 times, accounting for the 3 casings found at scene, and
if mag in LE pix has only 1cartridge (based on supposition if there were more we could see at least the 2nd)
if we count single cartridge laying atop the mag as 1 more,
then seems like he did not leave home w full magazine.
Leading up to -
Did BrM leave home w only 5cartridges? Not sure if that means anything.
IDK, but would puzzle me if he did. Could still be loose 1 in car, maybe 1 in chamber, total = 7 in gun w minimum 10 rd mag(?).
....
It's kind of an odd picture.... looks to me like it was taken on the hood of the car....
^bbm Agreeing, now that you say this - pix of mag & gun being taken on hood, now seeing windshield wiper
and on the glass, some bug splatter (imo)....