• #81
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're arguing here. The airport was obviously closed after the crash, so there were no more takeoffs or landings, only ground movements.

The question is, if there was a second controller in the building, why didn't they take over immediately following the crash? This is a question that the NTSB raised, and I just paraphrased it after listening to their press conference.

If you think it's a bad question, take it up with them, not me.
the controller you hear is one controller working those specific planes/runways. Their are others. If that controller has to immediately drop off, who picks up his planes? Who tells them the airport is closed and where to go, what frequency to switch to? Should that just instantly be dumped on one controller? Or do you think that maybe these folks have a plan about how this proceeds from there to hand off traffic to relieve that controller? I'll trust these professionals.
 
  • #82
the controller you hear is one controller working those specific planes/runways. Their are others. If that controller has to immediately drop off, who picks up his planes? Who tells them the airport is closed and where to go, what frequency to switch to? Should that just instantly be dumped on one controller? Or do you think that maybe these folks have a plan about how this proceeds from there to hand off traffic to relieve that controller? I'll trust these professionals.
And I guess I trust the NTSB to ask the right questions and search for the answers. I'll just leave it at that.
 
  • #83
the controller you hear is one controller working those specific planes/runways. Their are others. If that controller has to immediately drop off, who picks up his planes? Who tells them the airport is closed and where to go, what frequency to switch to? Should that just instantly be dumped on one controller? Or do you think that maybe these folks have a plan about how this proceeds from there to hand off traffic to relieve that controller? I'll trust these professionals.
I used to work with a former air traffic controller, he lasted five years as an ATC before he left due to the stress.

This has been several years ago but at that time if one ATC was going to be replaced by another, the replacement would sit beside the ATC for up to 30 minutes until he “got the picture” in his head. Then they switched off.

There was always a manager present to take over immediately in case of emergency, or if an ATC “lost the picture” due to stress or illness.

JMO and who knows how it is now with budget cuts and shortages?
 
  • #84
Is there a thing called “unlucky day for flying”?

On Sunday we were flying out from Denver airport where TSA workers were good at using “throughput system” and everyone was very disciplined, but it seems that an airport is one system, so the stress on one link stresses everyone. I could feel that the flight attendants were stressed out too, although they were very polite, and even the pilots. (It was before the accident in LG.) The weather was not great, and the flight was slightly bumpy. When I thanked the pilot for a great flight, he looked at me as if it was horrible (but it was not!).

So first, I think we can’t separate TSA from the rest, because while people are doing different jobs, an airport is one huge beehive.

Also, if the weather was not the best above “the West”, it might have been horrible at “the East”. I think the weather factor is underrated as several similar accidents (“stupidly preventable”, I’d say) that I read about all involved rain or snow. And evening.

We never take into account personal condition of the ATC. Not only are they overworked, what if someone develops a headache and is short-staffed? There are subjective factors that no one factors in yet we should.

In some airports, they started drug/ETOH testing not only pilots or ATCs but also, the ground services (and after workday, too). Because of such accidents.

The transponders. It would have been cheaper to install them on all fire trucks than deal with LG closure for five days, the investigation and the rest.

Lastly, the transportation from both LG and JFK (even to Uber, especially in JFK) is so long that I end up taking a taxi. But people are trying to save money/time, so both airports are chronically overworked and overloaded, even on good days.
 
  • #85
Is there a thing called “unlucky day for flying”?

On Sunday we were flying out from Denver airport where TSA workers were good at using “throughput system” and everyone was very disciplined, but it seems that an airport is one system, so the stress on one link stresses everyone. I could feel that the flight attendants were stressed out too, although they were very polite, and even the pilots. (It was before the accident in LG.) The weather was not great, and the flight was slightly bumpy. When I thanked the pilot for a great flight, he looked at me as if it was horrible (but it was not!).

So first, I think we can’t separate TSA from the rest, because while people are doing different jobs, an airport is one huge beehive.

Also, if the weather was not the best above “the West”, it might have been horrible at “the East”. I think the weather factor is underrated as several similar accidents (“stupidly preventable”, I’d say) that I read about all involved rain or snow. And evening.

We never take into account personal condition of the ATC. Not only are they overworked, what if someone develops a headache and is short-staffed? There are subjective factors that no one factors in yet we should.

In some airports, they started drug/ETOH testing not only pilots or ATCs but also, the ground services (and after workday, too). Because of such accidents.

The transponders. It would have been cheaper to install them on all fire trucks than deal with LG closure for five days, the investigation and the rest.

Lastly, the transportation from both LG and JFK (even to Uber, especially in JFK) is so long that I end up taking a taxi. But people are trying to save money/time, so both airports are chronically overworked and overloaded, even on good days.
One of my partners flew out of DIA this morning, he said TSA wait times were about normal, 5-10 minutes. He went to Dallas so I don't know what it will be like when he comes back.
 
  • #86
One of my partners flew out of DIA this morning, he said TSA wait times were about normal, 5-10 minutes. He went to Dallas so I don't know what it will be like when he comes back.

Safe flight back to your partner!
 
  • #87
Is there a thing called “unlucky day for flying”?

On Sunday we were flying out from Denver airport where TSA workers were good at using “throughput system” and everyone was very disciplined, but it seems that an airport is one system, so the stress on one link stresses everyone. I could feel that the flight attendants were stressed out too, although they were very polite, and even the pilots. (It was before the accident in LG.) The weather was not great, and the flight was slightly bumpy. When I thanked the pilot for a great flight, he looked at me as if it was horrible (but it was not!).

So first, I think we can’t separate TSA from the rest, because while people are doing different jobs, an airport is one huge beehive.

Also, if the weather was not the best above “the West”, it might have been horrible at “the East”. I think the weather factor is underrated as several similar accidents (“stupidly preventable”, I’d say) that I read about all involved rain or snow. And evening.

We never take into account personal condition of the ATC. Not only are they overworked, what if someone develops a headache and is short-staffed? There are subjective factors that no one factors in yet we should.

In some airports, they started drug/ETOH testing not only pilots or ATCs but also, the ground services (and after workday, too). Because of such accidents.

The transponders. It would have been cheaper to install them on all fire trucks than deal with LG closure for five days, the investigation and the rest.

Lastly, the transportation from both LG and JFK (even to Uber, especially in JFK) is so long that I end up taking a taxi. But people are trying to save money/time, so both airports are chronically overworked and overloaded, even on good days.

[bbm]

'an airport is one huge beehive'
perfect description
I don't know how ATC's function
 
  • #88
I agree. It is a horrible tragedy where you just feel sorry for everyone. The pilots, the crew, the passengers of Air Canada, the firemen, that ATC dispatcher, LaGuardia, the state of Quebec, the state of NY.

There is a lack of qualified ATCs and pilots, everywhere, and post-COVID it is so much worse. I don’t know what we can do as passengers but I surely hope they don’t pin it on the ATC.

Sending best wishes to everyone, not to forget JFK airport as well.
The only people to blame are politicians. Regardless of which side is holding out for their own pet projects there are certain segments of the population who are prohibited from going on strike. ATC's are one of those groups. So if they aren't allowed to strike for better working conditions, bigger annual budgets increases for hiring so they aren't chronically understaffed, etc, so when Congress stagnates with deadlocks these specific groups should continue to be paid so you don't get 500 ATC's quitting so they can make money elsewhere or 2000+ calling in 'sick' while they work elsewhere. It isn't the pilots, or the grounds crew or the ATCs, it's the government. End of. Full stop.
 
  • #89
As I noted in my post, the NTSB said it in their press conference.

EDIT: At 14:23: "We know that that controller was still on duty for several minutes afterwards. Normally they would be relieved. We have questions about that. Was anybody available to relieve that controller?"

It seems minutes is not too long that it is suspicious. If they had to get another controller there or they could have been away on a break or anything and if it's standard to have 2, then having both there stay until a 3rd arrived seems like a smart move. I would think that those in the tower would be 100% up to speed on all the planes in the area at the time so it also makes sense to me that they would both remain until those planes could be dealt with or a 3rd person could be caught up on which planes were where to get them all safely landed or diverted. This is just my opinion, but again minutes doesn't seem like a long time. I would think it would be an hour or more if there was no other controller on the premisis and they had to be called in, so maybe someone was around at the airport and they needed time to get to the tower.
 
  • #90
It isn't the pilots, or the grounds crew or the ATCs, it's the government. End of. Full stop.
<snipped for focus>

U.S. Secretary of Transportation stated that there is no ATC staffing shortage at LaGuardia. So in this case, I doubt it is the government. Will wait to see what the NTSB finds in its investigation. The rest is all noise at this point.

JMO
 
  • #91
<snipped for focus>

U.S. Secretary of Transportation stated that there is no ATC staffing shortage at LaGuardia. So in this case, I doubt it is the government. Will wait to see what the NTSB finds in its investigation. The rest is all noise at this point.

JMO

As of March 2026, there is a critical shortage of ATC:
  • Severe Understaffing: Major hubs are significantly understaffed, with reports highlighting Oakland Tower at 60% staffing, Las Vegas TRACON at 67.9%, and Milwaukee Tower at 69.4%.
  • High-Volume Facilities: Even "well-staffed" airports like LaGuardia are facing high pressure, often operating below their optimal hiring targets, causing increased workloads and stress on current staff.
  • Safety Impacts: The shortage is directly linked to increased flight delays and safety incidents, including runway incursions.
  • Causes: Key factors include a mandatory retirement age of 56, slow hiring and training, and previous government shutdowns stalling training pipelines.


 
  • #92
<snipped for focus>

U.S. Secretary of Transportation stated that there is no ATC staffing shortage at LaGuardia. So in this case, I doubt it is the government. Will wait to see what the NTSB finds in its investigation. The rest is all noise at this point.

JMO
Yeah, well I think he stretched the truth. LaGuardia is supposed to have 37 controllers, currently they have 33. I would call that short staffed. What would you call it? So it is the government because the government keeps cutting the budgets for pretty well everything going on in the US except for Defense Spending. That has ballooned to over a trillion dollars at the expense of these areas (I just copied AI quick points which I think are accurate because they are from the CBC.)
Key Impacts of the 2025 FAA Budget & Staffing Shortage:
  • Flight Reductions: Mandatory flight cuts at 40 major airports to alleviate pressure on stressed staff.
  • Affected Locations: Major hubs such as Atlanta (ATL), Denver (DEN), Dallas (DFW), Los Angeles (LAX), and New York City area airports (EWR, LGA, JFK) are heavily affected.
  • Operational Constraints: The FAA is restricting visual flight rules (VFR) and capping flight capacities because of the staffing crisis, limiting daily flights, and impacting thousands of passengers.
  • Causes: The immediate cause is a lack of funding for worker pay, which has caused staff shortages and, historically, low hiring rates from 2013 to 2023.
    CBC
Take note of the airports affected in the NYC area.
 
  • #93
  • #94
Article from 24 March 2026:
In a National Transportation Safety Board press conference at LaGuardia Airport in Queens, New York City, where the fatal collision occurred at 11:30 p.m. Sunday night, investigator in chief Doug Brazy read aloud a summary of the final transmissions between the tower, the aircraft and the Port Authority vehicle.
 
  • #95
If air traffic controllers in the US were not forced to work without pay, would planes crash into trucks on the tarmac at US airports? I doubt it.

Forced to work without pay is something we might expect to hear about China, but instead that is the current situation in the US. Employees are forced to work without pay, so they quit, call in sick, and leave airports dangerously short-staffed. It's not surprising that communication errors between air and ground traffic resulted in deaths.

"Air traffic controllers are not directly affected by the current shutdown, but they are considered essential workers and have been forced to work their stressful jobs without pay during prior shutdowns.

The partial shutdown has lasted more than a month.

Hundreds of Transportation Security Administration agents have called in sick or quit their jobs rather than be forced to work without pay. Congress remains deadlocked over approving funding for the Department of Homeland Security, which oversees the TSA."

 
  • #96
Imagine that a truck was given permission to cross the path of a landing US plane in Canada. Imagine that Canada was a country like the US, where employees are forced to work without pay.

Would anyone argue that forcing employees to work without pay did not contribute to communication problems that resulted in fatalities?
 
  • #97
Unpaid air traffic controllers have a heavy workload environment where many, many layers of protection must have failed - since that is described as necessary for a collision between ground and air traffic to occur.
  • "Investigators are focusing on the final three minutes of audio from the cockpit recorder, as well as staffing in the airport's air traffic control tower.
  • The NTSB chair said she would caution against "pointing fingers" at air traffic controllers, who work in "a heavy workload environment" day in and day out.
  • She said "many, many" layers of protection would have had to fail for such a collision to happen."
 
  • #98
Chaotic government rules and politics eliminated 400 airport safety inspectors and operations staff last month. Is there any doubt that this, and forced work without pay, compromised passenger safety?

"Jurek Sasiadek, a professor in aerospace engineering at Carleton University, pointed towards ongoing staffing issues at U.S. airports and the government’s “chaotic functioning” as a long-standing issue that could have contributed to Sunday’s tragic collision.

In February, 400 workers were laid off from the Federal Aviation Administration as U.S. president Donald Trump looked to cut its workforce, the Associated Press reported. Some of those jobs had “direct roles” in safety inspections and airport operations, which included repairing air traffic control facilities and updating digital maps that pilots use.
...

The safety of thousands of people should not be subject to those chaotic rules or politics,” he said, noting that this could only lead to more incidents."

 
  • #99
  • #100
"Michael Rousseau was brought before the Committee on Official Languages on Tuesday.... "
<modsnip>
 
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