This is interesting. Are you getting this body position from the Unsolved Mysteries video? It is possible that video is not completely accurate considering they did not mention how gruesome the crime scene was in actuality.
NY NY - Chaim Weiss, 15, Long Beach, 1 Nov 1986
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This is interesting. Are you getting this body position from the Unsolved Mysteries video? It is possible that video is not completely accurate considering they did not mention how gruesome the crime scene was in actuality.
^ eman77, I was going more on what I'd read in reports/comments by people who knew the details. I read that blood patterns indicated that he was moved about two feet from point B, and after then seeing the UM episode it occurred to me that this was .. well, somewhat awkward, in terms of effort expended in moving a limp body. It's actually really hard to keep the body from falling off the bed in an upside down heap unless you also move the buttocks over, as most of the weight is in the torse/arms/buttocks (okay, I was going to say 'especially mine' but let's not go there..).
And that's why I currently think he was carefully placed, not shoved, into position C. Of course, I am allowing for (and quite okay with) the fact that the 2-feet info might be skewed and all that was for nothing, but it was an interesting (and at times a bit painful! lol.. ) exercise, as well.
We shall have to agree to disagree on what is 'overkill', I think. I believe 11 wounds on a clearly dead body is deffo overkill. That was embellishment. Rage? Maybe, my inner jury's out to lunch on that one. (In answer to the poster asking about religious significance.. the same thought passed my mind, but I've found nothing to indicate this from any religion or cult, even from the Freemasons, lol.. I checked pretty thoroughly.)
I also think the killer used both hands on the weapon for that first blow. The weapon had to be a heavy knife or knife-like implement to puncture deep through bone into the brain and past it, to the spinal column (I am yet to closely examine possible wound trajectories, there's something.. odd.. there.. can't say what yet..). Anyway, it required a LOT of force. I have ahard time imagining this as a single-handed blow - surely there needed to be more impulsion/momentum to cause that much damage? So I am thinking, maybe a standing position by the bed side, two hands on the weapon .. then a single-handed frenzy for the post-mortem, lesser wounds.
I wonder who had access to that fire escape? And whether the looped-up position of the blind was how it was regularly or if it was broken and Chaim looped it over the rail to make getting out the window easier...I don't know why the window was not seen as a possible entry/exit point, seeing as it was open and there was apparently a fire escape outside of it, big enough for several boys to sit on at once. Might explain the open window? Maybe even how that mysterious 2nd candle appeared? How the killer came and went, with no-one seeing or hearing?
I wish we had some people here who went to that school..
And that's why I currently think he was carefully placed, not shoved, into position C. Of course, I am allowing for (and quite okay with) the fact that the 2-feet info might be skewed and all that was for nothing, but it was an interesting (and at times a bit painful! lol.. ) exercise, as well.
We shall have to agree to disagree on what is 'overkill', I think. I believe 11 wounds on a clearly dead body is deffo overkill. That was embellishment. Rage? Maybe, my inner jury's out to lunch on that one. (In answer to the poster asking about religious significance.. the same thought passed my mind, but I've found nothing to indicate this from any religion or cult, even from the Freemasons, lol.. I checked pretty thoroughly.)
I also think the killer used both hands on the weapon for that first blow. The weapon had to be a heavy knife or knife-like implement to puncture deep through bone into the brain and past it, to the spinal column (I am yet to closely examine possible wound trajectories, there's something.. odd.. there.. can't say what yet..). Anyway, it required a LOT of force. I have ahard time imagining this as a single-handed blow - surely there needed to be more impulsion/momentum to cause that much damage? So I am thinking, maybe a standing position by the bed side, two hands on the weapon .. then a single-handed frenzy for the post-mortem, lesser wounds.
I wonder who had access to that fire escape? And whether the looped-up position of the blind was how it was regularly or if it was broken and Chaim looped it over the rail to make getting out the window easier...I don't know why the window was not seen as a possible entry/exit point, seeing as it was open and there was apparently a fire escape outside of it, big enough for several boys to sit on at once. Might explain the open window? Maybe even how that mysterious 2nd candle appeared? How the killer came and went, with no-one seeing or hearing?
I wish we had some people here who went to that school..
I am a New Yorker, and I remember when Chaim was killed. There was never any indication whatsoever that this was a hate crime...and, I believe that the Jewish community in NY would have pursued justice,had this been a hate crime.And rightly so. MOO
The Polish worker,supposedly an anti semite would have been an immediate POI... MOO
The thing I do remember was the witness who saw one of the yeshiva students standing alone very early in the morning following Chaim's murder. He was just staring straight ahead...and this was before the murder was discovered,IIRC...
I remember when I heard about Chaim's death, for some reason I wondered if his murder somehow related to possible homosexual activity at the yeshiva. IDK why...
I'm glad to see this case highlighted here on WS...it has stayed in my memory all these years...
The Polish worker,supposedly an anti semite would have been an immediate POI... MOO
The thing I do remember was the witness who saw one of the yeshiva students standing alone very early in the morning following Chaim's murder. He was just staring straight ahead...and this was before the murder was discovered,IIRC...
I remember when I heard about Chaim's death, for some reason I wondered if his murder somehow related to possible homosexual activity at the yeshiva. IDK why...
I'm glad to see this case highlighted here on WS...it has stayed in my memory all these years...
I believe that. The classmate's friend in the other thread showed frustration that the police chose to focus their investigation inside the school, rather than outside. This is a similar issue to what happened in the JonBenet Ramsey case (but it's so controversial I don't want to derail this thread).
The whole 'Yeshiva boy standing outside by the boardwalk' story has never intrigued me.
It is just too vague. First off we have to question if the jogger really did see an Orthodox Jewish boy and not just someone wearing a hat and a suit. Then you have to consider if it was a student from the school since NYC happens to be the #1 city in the world after Jerusalem for Orthodox Jews.
OK, after these two screens, let's say it really was a student from the school. This was at 7am, not 4am. He could be a morning person and decided to sit by the boardwalk. Then why is it strange that he was 'staring straight ahead'. When did staring out at the water while at a boardwalk become a strange and suspicious activity? It would have been stranger if he wasn't staring out at the water. It would have been strange if he was staring straight at a tree or something.
It's just such a loose end, that I can't see a connection to anything. Does it mean the student killed Chaim and then went out in the morning to think about what he'd just done? Are you telling me this kid was so distraught he went to sit at the boardwalk but when several different investigative units showed up to interrogate him he kept his cool? No student, faculty, or police offer suspected him?
Maybe he discovered the body before everybody, went for a walk because he was so traumatized, and came back to tell everyone (or not tell anyone). Why would he keep this a secret? Nobody would have caught on to his strange behavior?
I mean, think backwards. What could have realistically happened to have that be an important clue in this case?
I have always wondered why the student in question never came forward when LE pleaded with him to do so...
I've never heard this and it's interesting.
What do you think of this? If he came back to search for something, it meant that he would have had to put his gloves on again (or a new pair) so he would not leave fingerprints or blood prints the 2nd time around. Maybe even those wraps around his shoes. So he was extra careful.
If he was so extra careful, he wouldn't exactly just throw Chaim's limp body (and it would be limp since rigor mortis takes several hours to kick in) down on the floor. Why? It would make too much noise. He would have to very quietly and very slowly put his head on the ground in order to get Chaim's torso off the bed so the killer could search the bed for X object. In this case, the killer could realistically put Chaim in this position without any staging intentions since he would not want the whole body to drop since it would make a loud bang.
If your staged theory is correct, perhaps it was a botched staging? But I don't know what he was trying to make it look like. 12 stabs to the head is no accidental death. And I think this killer was intelligent enough to realize that making it look like Chaim fell off the bed while sleeping and hit his head would be pretty suspicious with the brain matter on the walls.
I'd also like to learn more about the fire escape or the layout of the school.
I'm not stuck on the staging theory. Just very open to it.
People stage a crime for only a few reasons:
1. To hide the crime itself (ie, to make it look like it was not a murder at all but a purely accidental death -- unlikely here for reasons you gave above)
2. To hide the true nature of the crime (ie, to make a hit look like a robbery gone wrong, a planned crime made to look like a random killer, a murder to look like a suicide, binding or posing dead victims in a sexually suggestive way to imply a rape gone wrong, etc)
3. To obfuscate details that might help authorities to identify them (ie, remove incriminating items or weapon from scene, moving things to obscure footprints, moving items that might make an incriminating motive clear to the cops, etc)
4. To skew the investigation's direction (ie, leaving red herrings, copycat crime scenes, a false message on a wall, etc)
5. To send a kind of message to the victim's family or police.
I am not stuck on Chaim's murder being staged, but I do think it's worth keeping an open mind about. A few things do not make sense, and I think the ease with which people (wrongly) assumed the odd details of the scene as having religious significance was maybe the result of a 'red herring' - someone trying to make it look like a person at the school did it.. And if so -- well, it worked well enough to make many people think in that direction.
People stage a crime for only a few reasons:
1. To hide the crime itself (ie, to make it look like it was not a murder at all but a purely accidental death -- unlikely here for reasons you gave above)
2. To hide the true nature of the crime (ie, to make a hit look like a robbery gone wrong, a planned crime made to look like a random killer, a murder to look like a suicide, binding or posing dead victims in a sexually suggestive way to imply a rape gone wrong, etc)
3. To obfuscate details that might help authorities to identify them (ie, remove incriminating items or weapon from scene, moving things to obscure footprints, moving items that might make an incriminating motive clear to the cops, etc)
4. To skew the investigation's direction (ie, leaving red herrings, copycat crime scenes, a false message on a wall, etc)
5. To send a kind of message to the victim's family or police.
I am not stuck on Chaim's murder being staged, but I do think it's worth keeping an open mind about. A few things do not make sense, and I think the ease with which people (wrongly) assumed the odd details of the scene as having religious significance was maybe the result of a 'red herring' - someone trying to make it look like a person at the school did it.. And if so -- well, it worked well enough to make many people think in that direction.
BBM... yes, he probably was very distraught...I think he may have witnessed something that night that he didn't understand at the time.He may also have had a strong suspicion of who murdered Chaim. Given the analytic and contemplative nature of Talmudic studies, I think he could have been wrestling with the situation as he knew it... JMO
Also, from what I remember, the investigation eventually focused on the occupants of the Yeshiva itself because LE's information led them in that direction...JMO
Looks like the school is now called Torah High School. Here is a Google Map view of it: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&n...a=X&ei=emp_UPChMIPUiwLPioHwDw&ved=0CB8Q8gEwAA
I'm guessing it's the large white building but I'm not positive. Nice and quiet suburban neighborhood. A few blocks from the boardwalk.
The reason I'm confused is that I thought this was a 3 story building. Did they tear it down. I'm getting my information from this link: http://yeshivareviews.blogspot.com/2006/02/mesifta-of-long-beach.html
It's not very easy to find information on this school. Even in the comments the murder and earlier suicide still comes up. This crime seems to have soiled the school's reputation.
I'm guessing it's the large white building but I'm not positive. Nice and quiet suburban neighborhood. A few blocks from the boardwalk.
The reason I'm confused is that I thought this was a 3 story building. Did they tear it down. I'm getting my information from this link: http://yeshivareviews.blogspot.com/2006/02/mesifta-of-long-beach.html
It's not very easy to find information on this school. Even in the comments the murder and earlier suicide still comes up. This crime seems to have soiled the school's reputation.
Looking at the overhead view on satellite: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&n...a=X&ei=emp_UPChMIPUiwLPioHwDw&ved=0CB8Q8gEwAA
This probably is the school. From overhead you can see the size of the building and what seems like a large third level. If you go down Magnolia Blvd. you see that the school takes up the entire corner. Unfortunately we don't have a good view of the front of the building using street view.
This probably is the school. From overhead you can see the size of the building and what seems like a large third level. If you go down Magnolia Blvd. you see that the school takes up the entire corner. Unfortunately we don't have a good view of the front of the building using street view.
eman77,
Nice and quiet suburban neighborhood now...back then,maybe not so much...Your post made me think. Back at that time, there was a lot of crack in Long Beach.Some boarded up buildings,even close to the boardwalk.It was quite different from what it is now..
Were any of Chaim's belongings missing ? Did the students keep any $$$ in their rooms ? Because it just might have been a robbery gone way wrong.And someone who needed crack money could well have been that vicious. MOO
I'm not so positive Chaim was a specific target either.Another student remembered waking up because someone opened and shut his door. It could just have been that Chaim had his own room. Easier to deal with one boy than two... MOO
What if one or more of the rabbis at the Yeshiva found Chaim ? And moved his body ? Thing is,they were responsible for the students.And that door lock should have been fixed. Just some thoughts...
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Did Chaim go to school with anyone whose family knew well, or worked with his father?
It is possible the neighborhood was not so good in the 1980's. However I am not sold on a drug addict robbery for the following reason:
A good friend of mine once quietly turned into a heroin/crack addict before our eyes. I saw what that drug does to even normal middle class kids. Every crime he committed while he was using (he is clean now) was a total mess. Smash and grab. They have one thing on their mind and that is getting the drug and getting out. They live in the moment.
A drug addict would have left so many clues, fingerprints, footprints, blood stains, etc. that this case would have been solved within the week. A heroin/crack addict would not have been able to sneak in so quietly and prepare so carefully.
I have not heard of anything being taken. Sometimes the police don't release that information so they can squeeze it out of the suspect to confirm a confession.
I agree with you about Chaim possibly being a random suspect. That is my suspicion as well. And in the linked to thread, the actual former classmate debunked the "rabbi moved the body" idea fairly well. I forgot exactly what he said but it should be in the thread.
That is possible. Jews know other Jews, in my experience. To be honest, it is possible every parent in that school knew every parent. That's how it goes in small Jewish schools.
P.S. I went to a small Jewish school growing up with 20 other kids in my grade from K-6. I can assure you we all knew each other very well. We were co-ed but if it was just other boys, I'm sure we would have been even closer.
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How wonderful to have such a sense of community eman77.
Here's what I think after pondering this for a few days and reading all the posts. I do not believe this was a hate crime. I believe that Chaim was the intentional victim. I do not believe this was an inside job. Too many people were interviewed and poly'ed with no result. I hypothesize this was a hit, an execution as some retribution tied to his father. As a stated before, this is the ultimate way to seek revenge, to kill a man's son. This was done by a professional. The extra whacks were symbolic, and intentional. Of what, I do not know.
There are a few things we don't know yet regarding the father. What did he do for a living? All I have found is vague "he was a very successful businessman" stories. Did he sell Hallmark cards? In which case I don't imagine there would be too many people trying to kill his son. Was he in the construction industry? This is a mafia-heavy business, especially in NYC, so he could be in more danger. But the mob generally does not kill 15 year old boys. They are not cowards and will gladly whack an adult if they feel they have to.
It's not the negative polygraphs that makes me rule out the classmates. Polygraphs can be easily beaten if the killer is at peace with the crime in his mind. They can also post false positives which are even worse. Polygraphs have been debunked years ago and nowadays are used as PR stunts for criminal trials by lawyers.
What rules them out for me is that investigators are professional interrogators. If you are inexperienced, you will crack. If you are 15 and you just KILLED SOMEBODY, you will crack under pressure. If you have amazing emotional control and avoid suspicion from the police, now you will have to be around your faculty, close classmates, and other families without any of them gathering a hint of suspicion, and those people will be looking for any clue or funny behavior.
If we think of this as a logic puzzle, then yes, it is possible that a classmate did it and we don't have solid solid alibis for any of them other than they were sleeping and they might have woken up their roommate by getting up. But if we play by those rules we can make up pretty much anything.
i have a theory but need to have some info first did the doors have some sort of glass on them? like you could see in the room almost like classrooms but not a full glass window like a small half window where you could see inside the door room to know that there is only 1 bed or 2 beds. if so he could have been looking in the windows at all the rooms to find one that was a singular room. he chose the 3rd floor because maybe he jumped out the window thus why the window was open? it would have been easier for him to jump out then risk being cought by going back down the stairs. not sure how high the building was and if jumping from the 3rd floor would have caused death or minor damages to the person jumping?
Perodicticus potto
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I just wanted to address the comments made in this thread about Poles and Jews. Poland - like many other countries - certainly does have a shameful history of anti-Semitism, and many Polish citizens were indeed complicit in the Holocaust. However, it does not by any means follow that any given Pole is guaranteed to hate Jews. According to Wikipedia, 6,339 Polish citizens are currently recognised by Israel as being "Righteous Among the Nations" for their role in rescuing Jews from the Holocaust - that's more than any other country. It's been estimated that up to 50,000 Poles were executed by the Nazis for helping Jews. And of course, the sole Polish Pope in history, John Paul II, did more than any other to improve Catholic-Jewish relations. Suspecting a janitor merely because s/he was Polish is painting with too broad a brush, IMHO.
This is my first read on this website and first post. This is so sad, it must be agonizing for the parents to not know even after all the time that has passed. There is little evidence and roadblocks from the people there during the time. Do the cold cases ever get a second look by law enforcement? Is there a system in place for cold cases, aside from being sent to a television program?
I hope that some of the people at the school will come forward with more now that they are grown. I am sure memories of this would not fade like other memories.
Hope & Peace for the family.
I hope that some of the people at the school will come forward with more now that they are grown. I am sure memories of this would not fade like other memories.
Hope & Peace for the family.
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