Deceased/Not Found NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979 #1 *P. Hernandez guilty*

[Another New Yorker]

is that a man or a woman?

Woman bodybuilder.

And the shirtless pic of Etan is completely innocent.
If I recall, the story is that Dad was setting up to do a fashion shot on a hot day, Etan was running around shirtless, playing, and Dad asked him to climb up on the ladder where the model was going to be so he could snap a few shots to check the lighting. A few of these "throwaway" pics looked good, so he printed them.

 

[epiphany]

IMO, there is a new person of interest, but nothing we have read nor viewed on live reports indicates that the new POI is anyone other than whom we have learned about from a multitude of unnamed LE "sources."

 

[TieDyeJedi]

Seriously, people, have we gotten to the point that a non-sexualized shirtless (and the focus is on his FACE) photo of a male child taken by his professional photographer father is immediately cause to cry wolf? Good lord, better hide my daughter's newborn photos where all she has on is a diaper. I'm kind of amazed that people actually find that suspicious at all, and it's a good photo.

Nor do I take issue with the black and white female bodybuilder photo. My god, go browse Deviantart and there are thousands upon thousands of artistic nudes/mostly nudes in that vein up there. I'd wager just about every single pro photographer has done at least one art nude shoot.

 

[Wendy101]

I have no followed this case at all.. Have couple questions..

1. Was it moms or dads poly inconclusive?

2. have dogs ever searched the family home? cadaver?

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Professional photographs would often have the address of the photographer stamped on the back. It seems Mr. Patz's studio is his home or right on the same block. If someone develops an unhealthy fascination with the child they could have tracked him down easily with this address and waited for a chance to get him alone.

 

[necco]

Respectfully snipped

And something else.... does anyone find the photos odd? They are very posed. Taken by a professionally photographer I would think. The one where Etan has his shirt off.... creepy.

Also the father's description of his son being betrayed by an adult... this must come from evidence in the civil case...

Dad was a photographer.

 

[Wendy101]

Seriously, people, have we gotten to the point that a non-sexualized shirtless (and the focus is on his FACE) photo of a male child taken by his professional photographer father is immediately cause to cry wolf? Good lord, better hide my daughter's newborn photos where all she has on is a diaper. I'm kind of amazed that people actually find that suspicious at all, and it's a good photo.

Nor do I take issue with the black and white female bodybuilder photo. My god, go browse Deviantart and there are thousands upon thousands of artistic nudes/mostly nudes in that vein up there. I'd wager just about every single pro photographer has done at least one art nude shoot.

TIA: I'd have to say I have LOADS of photos where my son is not wearing a shirt... In the summer it is normal for him not to wear one...

 

[AnaTeresa]

The thing is - Etan probably was betrayed by an adult. He was likely kidnapped by an adult, rather than by another child or teenager. Whatever happened to him WAS a betrayal. I really don't see why there's an issue with this statement.

I also do not see any reason to take issue with the photographs. This is like the witchhunt that swept up parents who took innocent photos of their children in the bath, etc. That photo is clearly not child . To imply that it is, in my opinion, demeans the victims of true child and grossly insults Etan's father. Unless there's actual evidence of child being at issue in this case, I really think that sort of speculation is unfounded, in my opinion.

Lastly, it's one thing to ask if the parents were investigated - it's quite another to criticize what they have/haven't done and to imply salacious speculation to their lives. Haven't they suffered enough? WS is supposed to be victim-friendly. At this time, we have NO evidence that the Patzes are anything but victims in this matter and should be treated as such, in my opinion.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Seriously, people, have we gotten to the point that a non-sexualized shirtless (and the focus is on his FACE) photo of a male child taken by his professional photographer father is immediately cause to cry wolf? Good lord, better hide my daughter's newborn photos where all she has on is a diaper. I'm kind of amazed that people actually find that suspicious at all, and it's a good photo.

Nor do I take issue with the black and white female bodybuilder photo. My god, go browse Deviantart and there are thousands upon thousands of artistic nudes/mostly nudes in that vein up there. I'd wager just about every single pro photographer has done at least one art nude shoot.

I agree with your point. It is making two and two make five....I am not sure the person in the photo is a male or a female. It has an androgynous quality.

But the fact remains the child was photographed semi clothed and that child went missing.

 

[epiphany]

IMO, it appears more likely that an adult who may have been trusted by the family and close-knit community, as well as who had access to the family and the child at the time, would also be the individual who would have had a previously unknown interest in innocent photographs of Etan and/or other children.

Very bold, IMO, and out-of-character of the NY Times to publish the unnamed sources comment about OM's response to viewing "a book of images of children."

JMO, but there seem to be a number of reasons why OM became a person of interest in this case.

 

[necco]

Wow. We must have all been typing about Mr. Patz being a photographer at the same time.

Etan has been in the news. His name HAS been out there. Maybe it's because I'm relatively local, but I recall stories about him.

He was "The kid on the milk carton" which has evolved into the missing persons pictures in those annoying mail inserts that come.

His father distributed countless pictures of him. They never moved. They never changed their number. They never gave up on their child. They waited 22 years to have him declared dead and that was so they could get civil justice against the main suspect.

 

[TieDyeJedi]

I agree with your point. It is making two and two make five....I am not sure the person in the photo is a male or a female. It has an androgynous quality.

But the fact remains the child was photographed semi clothed and that child went missing.

I'm pretty sure everyone in this country has been semi-clothed at some point or another in a photograph as a child, so I don't really think you can make a connection there.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

The thing is - Etan probably was betrayed by an adult. He was likely kidnapped by an adult, rather than by another child or teenager. Whatever happened to him WAS a betrayal. I really don't see why there's an issue with this statement.

I also do not see any reason to take issue with the photographs. This is like the witchhunt that swept up parents who took innocent photos of their children in the bath, etc. That photo is clearly not child . To imply that it is, in my opinion, demeans the victims of true child and grossly insults Etan's father. Unless there's actual evidence of child being at issue in this case, I really think that sort of speculation is unfounded, in my opinion.

Lastly, it's one thing to ask if the parents were investigated - it's quite another to criticize what they have/haven't done and to imply salacious speculation to their lives. Haven't they suffered enough? WS is supposed to be victim-friendly. At this time, we have NO evidence that the Patzes are anything but victims in this matter and should be treated as such, in my opinion.

I agree with your point. Photos of children nude or partly nude, taken innocently are unfortuneately "" in the eyes of the "sick" beholder. With Etan going missing those photos of him in the wrong hands could lead to who harmed him. As I mentioned professional photographs would have a stamp on them of the photographer's name and studio address...

With Etan going missing the one single day he is actually alone on the street... could mean someone was already targeting him.. and just waiting for an opportunity. The photo's sadly could have been part of the fascination. With Ramos being found with photos of other blonde boys... it creates a possible link. It was also stated that Etan's babysitter had dated Ramos?

 

[necco]

It was NOT a sexual picture. You can tell he has no shirt on, but it is not the first thing a person notices and really, everything that would be covered by a shirt is covered by his arm. I suspect he used that one because it was the most recent and it had an excellent view of his face. Late May in NYC can be hot and sticky. In fact, a lot of families who lived in the city decamped and headed to the Borscht belt for the summer because it was cooler and many didn't have AC.

 

[necco]

I agree with your point. Photos of children nude or partly nude, taken innocently are unfortuneately "" in the eyes of the "sick" beholder. With Etan going missing those photos of him in the wrong hands could lead to who harmed him. As I mentioned professional photographs would have a stamp on them of the photographer's name and studio address...

With Etan going missing the one single day he is actually alone on the street... could mean someone was already targeting him.. and just waiting for an opportunity. The photo's sadly could have been part of the fascination. With Ramos being found with photos of other blonde boys... it creates a possible link.

Do we know these photos were distributed in anyway before Etan went missing? Mr. Patz almost certainly would have developed them himself and unless they were in his portfolio, I don't see how anyone would have gotten their hands on them. It's just a portrait of a kid hanging out at dad's work.

 

[Another New Yorker]

With Etan going missing the one single day he is actually alone on the street... could mean someone was already targeting him.. and just waiting for an opportunity.

Yes, and Ramos (a known, convicted pedophile who liked boys who looked like Etan) was dating a woman (she told authorities that she broke up with him because he had molested her son - she believed he had gotten involved with her just so that he could do so) whom the Patzes were paying to walk Etan to school during a 2-month long bus strike.
Years later, Ramos recited every stop on Etan's bus to an informant in prison.
The first day that the buses were running again, Etan disappeared while walking alone to the bus, a distance of less than 2 blocks, in a straight line.

The day that Etan disappeared was the first day that Ramos's girlfriend was not walking him to school.

Ramos would obviously have known that his girlfriend was not going to be going to her 8AM job that morning, and there are reports that he had met Etan.

Therefore, it is not much of a stretch to believe that a known pedophile would lurk along the route of a child he was attracted to when he knew that child would be there.

All that remains is the introduction of opportunity, in the form of Etan having been unexpectedly allowed to walk the route alone, and you have an impulsive crime.

Since it appears that Ramos MAY have done some odd jobs for Miller and MAY have had a key to his basement shop, which was along Etan's route, and was in a place with which Etan was familiar, and where he felt safe (from attending or visiting play group and helping Miller there), it isn't much of a stretch to believe that Ramos, who was able to entice boys into his bus without any trouble, could call Etan down into the basement, after which point anything could have happened, and Ramos could have disposed of Etan's body any number of ways that did not entail burying him in the floor (such as putting him out for the garbage - how much did he weigh? Fifty pounds?).

There is some mystery here, but not too much, I'm afraid.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

It was NOT a sexual picture. You can tell he has no shirt on, but it is not the first thing a person notices and really, everything that would be covered by a shirt is covered by his arm. I suspect he used that one because it was the most recent and it had an excellent view of his face. Late May in NYC can be hot and sticky. In fact, a lot of families who lived in the city decamped and headed to the Borscht belt for the summer because it was cooler and many didn't have AC.

I believe someone mentioned more than one photo was taken at the time. We also don't know if this photo was cropped by the media.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Yes, and Ramos (a known, convicted pedophile who liked boys who looked like Etan) was dating a woman (she told authorities that she broke up with him because he had molested her son - she believed he had gotten involved with her just so that he could do so) whom the Patzes were paying to walk Etan to school during a 2-month long bus strike.
Years later, Ramos recited every stop on Etan's bus to an informant in prison.
The first day that the buses were running again, Etan disappeared while walking alone to the bus, a distance of less than 2 blocks, in a straight line.

The day that Etan disappeared was the first day that Ramos's girlfriend was not walking him to school.

Ramos would obviously have known that his girlfriend was not going to be going to her 8AM job that morning, and there are reports that he had met Etan.

Therefore, it is not much of a stretch to believe that a known pedophile would lurk along the route of a child he was attracted to when he knew that child would be there.

All that remains is the introduction of opportunity, in the form of Etan having been unexpectedly allowed to walk the route alone, and you have an impulsive crime.

Since it appears that Ramos MAY have done some odd jobs for Miller and MAY have had a key to his basement shop, which was along Etan's route, and was in a place with which Etan was familiar, and where he felt safe (from attending or visiting play group and helping Miller there), it isn't much of a stretch to believe that Ramos, who was able to entice boys into his bus without any trouble, could call Etan down into the basement, after which point anything could have happened, and Ramos could have disposed of Etan's body any number of ways that did not entail burying him in the floor (such as putting him out for the garbage - how much did he weigh? Fifty pounds?).

There is some mystery here, but not too much, I'm afraid.

Thank you for the additional information. Ramos had a bus? School bus? Drove a city bus?

Why does Etan end up very probably dead? We know other children were molested but not killed by Ramos. If we focus on Ramos and try to answer this question about why in Etan's situation does his life end? What happened that was different? I wonder what the stats are on child molesters who have many victims but don't kill (or get caught). Does this fit Ramos's MO?

If we assume Etan was killed... Is Ramos connected with more missing children?

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Do we know these photos were distributed in anyway before Etan went missing? Mr. Patz almost certainly would have developed them himself and unless they were in his portfolio, I don't see how anyone would have gotten their hands on them. It's just a portrait of a kid hanging out at dad's work.

I would hope LE covered all the angles on this.

 

[epiphany]

IMO, the case is not as clear cut as previously thought.

The search of the basement, which had no known connection to Ramos, suggested law enforcement was pursuing a different theory. The space was used by Othniel Miller, a handyman, as a workshop at the time of Patz's disappearance, according to another law enforcement official who asked not to be named because the investigation was continuing.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47147549