Found Deceased NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - # 1

[fringles]

I know this is obvious but this only just dawned on me properly.

The options we seem to have are:

- JR was on her way to the mall, and was diverted by random foul play.
- JR was on her way to an unknown, secret location and met with foul play there.
- JR has run away.
- JR never left the house, or not of her own volition.

The discussion has been, at times, that she left her car and ditched her phone after meeting someone and getting in their vehicle.

If her van was covered in mud, that seems extremely unlikely now. As in, why on earth would she arrange to meet someone somewhere muddy, only to then drive to the apartments and ditch the car.

Likewise, if she was running away - what did she do, decide to do a little off-roading beforehand?

Basically, I guess everyone else has worked this out already as it's so obvious, but to me this pretty much rules out runaway. It leaves a carjacking as an option, I suppose - in that she could've been stopped, driven somewhere, harmed, and then the jacker drove a little way then dumped the car. But I have never quite felt that it was a random attack - for one thing, surely they'd leave the phone with her, or steal it/sell it and for another it just seems so unlikely, statistically - it's not as though she was driving a desirable car.

The only thing I can think, that works with her meeting someone, is that it was someone local, who lived in an off-road or muddy area, and that something happened there, or after that.

Going back to my options:

- JR was on her way to the mall, and was diverted by random foul play: UNLIKELY
- JR was on her way to an unknown, secret location and met with foul play there: POSSIBLE but it makes it a LOCAL location.
- JR has run away: UNLIKELY
- JR never went anywhere that day: POSSIBLE

Does this make sense? Am I missing something? Sorry to state the obvious!

 

[OffRoadRunner]

Is the sense in the local community that there is a predator amongst you? Just curious how the locals are feeling and what they think happened to her..

Yes, in that sense. On New Year's Eve, a mom of 35 came up missing but was located the next day. When that happened, the locals, especially in that small town of South New Berlin, were very uneasy!! She was found and thus things died back down.

Locals I've talked to point to him due to his actions (all us husband's said we'd be out combing the area day and night vice continuing same old same old (like having the birthday party), and going to work).... especially if I was an avid outdoorsman (ultra endurance runner) like he purports.

This area is rural, with lots of seasonal roads (that are snowmobile routes now) and 1000s of acres of State Lands not far from where the cell phone was found. The snow makes it harder, something, if she is out there, was part of the plan in my mind.

What I am trying to figure out is:

1) Planned (methodical, detailed, no mistakes, do things to throw people off, body where it won't be found) , or
2) Out of rage or some catalyst that caused it (no plan, hurried, mistakes, sloppy, body most likely is easily found)

Any thoughts?

 

[OldSteve]

In Mickey's case, the family and friends were extremely active, enlisting every living person and resource imaginable, to help find Mickey. They were going to stop at nothing, until they found Mickey and the answers they needed. And they did just that.

And you can bet Websleuths.com helped, because we sure did!
As awful as that case was, Mickey's family and community were a pleasure to help.

For whatever reason, the family/community behavior's here are very different, IMO.

Speaking of Mickey Shunick's case, video surveillance played a big role - so I wonder what's been gathered in this this case, if there were any cameras that could be checked -gas stations, stores, street cams, anything in and around her home and where car was found, etc...

It's time consuming work, but seems to be the way to catch someone these days - as in Sierra Lamar's case.

 

[all4justice]

After seeing so many of these missing persons cases drag on for months and even years with little to no information from LE, I am beginning to think that families are going to have to take a much more proactive role if they want to find their loved ones sooner. No disrespect to LE, but I think limited resources, lack of adequate training in some cases, and competing interests, hamper the ability to solve cases quickly. It may mean that families will have to start pooling financial resources and/or start a missing person fund if need be, consult a lawyer to ensure they don't run afoul of laws or hamper LE's investigation, and then hire a private investigator to help them to find their missing loved one. The private investigator can then coordinate with professional search organizations as necessary. Perhaps, in some cases, the public is placing more faith in LE's ability to solve missing persons cases without help, than is warranted. JMO, MOO

 

[LivingJuicy]

Yes, in that sense. On New Year's Eve, a mom of 35 came up missing but was located the next day. When that happened, the locals, especially in that small town of South New Berlin, were very uneasy!! She was found and thus things died back down.

Locals I've talked to point to him due to his actions (all us husband's said we'd be out combing the area day and night vice continuing same old same old (like having the birthday party), and going to work).... especially if I was an avid outdoorsman (ultra endurance runner) like he purports.

This area is rural, with lots of seasonal roads (that are snowmobile routes now) and 1000s of acres of State Lands not far from where the cell phone was found. The snow makes it harder, something, if she is out there, was part of the plan in my mind.

What I am trying to figure out is:

1) Planned (methodical, detailed, no mistakes, do things to throw people off, body where it won't be found) , or
2) Out of rage or some catalyst that caused it (no plan, hurried, mistakes, sloppy, body most likely is easily found)

Any thoughts?

Very much agree. Interesting that locals are also on board. I sort of figured though..

I am back and forth between 1 and 2.

I've also wondered if there could be someone else involved.

If I had to vote - planned.

 

[Hexe]

Jennifer's car. I've been thinking about it a lot. Why would she abandon it in Norwich? It would make sense only if there was someone to pick her up, but still, it was awfully close to her home, it was quite risky. I mean she could have been seen by her husband, or someone known to her and GR. If she wanted to leave in secret, ditching the car in Norwich doesn't have much sense.

And if she, or the perp, did not want the car to be found too soon, why to leave it there, at the small parking lot, where any new car sticks out like a sore thumb? Why not to leave it at some huge parking lot belonging to some busy mall, why not to ditch it somewhere in a ravine? In the area where Jennifer went missing there are a lot of solitude, wild places, why not to dump the car there?

 

[OffRoadRunner]

Jennifer's car. I've been thinking about it a lot. Why would she abandon it in Norwich? It would make sense only if there was someone to pick her up, but still, it was awfully close to her home, it was quite risky. I mean she could have been seen by her husband, or someone known to her and GR. If she wanted to leave in secret, ditching the car in Norwich doesn't have much sense.

And if she, or the perp, did not want the car to be found too soon, why to leave it there, at the small parking lot, where any new car sticks out like a sore thumb? Why not to leave it at some huge parking lot belonging to some busy mall, why not to ditch it somewhere in a ravine? In the area where Jennifer went missing there are a lot of solitude, wild places, why not to dump the car there?

The City Police sit in the parking lot directly across the street from those apartments facing west all the time. I'm shocked they didn't find it sooner knowing where it was found. Makes me think it wasn't always there. Could be, but not sure if we'll ever know.

 

[MissieMt]

I'm in awe right now over what's going on, and not in a good way. I'm not sure I can put my thoughts down in a manner that makes sense, but I'm going to try:
I'm flat out, 100% not buying ANY of it, and I'm mad as he11 that her family is sitting idly by while this goes on. This is how cases go cold folks-this is how you end up on some crappy crime documentary show in 20 years trying desperately to find your loved one and knowing darn well that it's too little too late! It's time for her family and friends to take action. If they are scared of him like some people are suggesting they need to realize that the only way to get rid of that fear is to find Jennifer and have the person responsible put away. I understand that this is a victim friendly forum, and I mean no disrespect to her family or friends. I'm speaking from experience and begging anyone who knows her that might be reading here to PLEASE take action and do it now before it's too late! Her children will grow up and they will have questions. You don't want to be the one who has to say "I wish we had done more". I know some are posting flyers, but imo, if they were going to help in this case they would have by now. It's time to be a bit more proactive than that. And I know that they want to believe that they should just let LE do their job. I say this in the most respectful way possible: LE doesn't always know everything. They are human, and they make mistakes, and this most certainly wouldn't be the first missing persons case they fumbled.
And why is LE trying to keep people from searching? I don't believe that they're doing "secret searches" for one minute. The rumor mill is a powerful thing and if they or a requested SAR team were searching, we would have heard about it for sure. So, since (IMO) they're obviously not searching, or at least not searching much, why not let other people search? We've speculated (don't know if it's verified that it's been said by LE) that maybe they don't want people disturbing/ruining evidence. I'd buy that if they themselves displayed a sense of urgency in finding possible evidence. People might disturb evidence but so does time, snow, wind, animals, hunters, etc etc. Better to risk civilian disturbing it now vs. never finding it.
In a way I hope she didn't take off. Goodness, could you imagine if you left your life behind in a "I'll show them" temper tantrum sort of way and then you saw that no one was doing anything to find you except discourage others from finding you? To me, that pain is unimaginable.
I guess that's all I have for now.
:banghead: Rant OVER :banghead:

 

[enzeder]

Very much agree. Interesting that locals are also on board. I sort of figured though..

I am back and forth between 1 and 2.

I've also wondered if there could be someone else involved.

If I had to vote - planned.

BBM - I vote planned.

IMO

 

[LivingJuicy]

I'm in awe right now over what's going on, and not in a good way. I'm not sure I can put my thoughts down in a manner that makes sense, but I'm going to try:
I'm flat out, 100% not buying ANY of it, and I'm mad as he11 that her family is sitting idly by while this goes on. This is how cases go cold folks-this is how you end up on some crappy crime documentary show in 20 years trying desperately to find your loved one and knowing darn well that it's too little too late! It's time for her family and friends to take action. If they are scared of him like some people are suggesting they need to realize that the only way to get rid of that fear is to find Jennifer and have the person responsible put away. I understand that this is a victim friendly forum, and I mean no disrespect to her family or friends. I'm speaking from experience and begging anyone who knows her that might be reading here to PLEASE take action and do it now before it's too late! Her children will grow up and they will have questions. You don't want to be the one who has to say "I wish we had done more". I know some are posting flyers, but imo, if they were going to help in this case they would have by now. It's time to be a bit more proactive than that. And I know that they want to believe that they should just let LE do their job. I say this in the most respectful way possible: LE doesn't always know everything. They are human, and they make mistakes, and this most certainly wouldn't be the first missing persons case they fumbled.
And why is LE trying to keep people from searching? I don't believe that they're doing "secret searches" for one minute. The rumor mill is a powerful thing and if they or a requested SAR team were searching, we would have heard about it for sure. So, since (IMO) they're obviously not searching, or at least not searching much, why not let other people search? We've speculated (don't know if it's verified that it's been said by LE) that maybe they don't want people disturbing/ruining evidence. I'd buy that if they themselves displayed a sense of urgency in finding possible evidence. People might disturb evidence but so does time, snow, wind, animals, hunters, etc etc. Better to risk civilian disturbing it now vs. never finding it.
In a way I hope she didn't take off. Goodness, could you imagine if you left your life behind in a "I'll show them" temper tantrum sort of way and then you saw that no one was doing anything to find you except discourage others from finding you? To me, that pain is unimaginable.
I guess that's all I have for now.
:banghead: Rant OVER :banghead:

This was an awesome post. Especially the point about the elements effecting evidence versus human error.

:rocker:

 

[Clayton]

I took a drive today around the area. It is so difficult this time of year because of the snow, but I drove up and down a couple of dirt roads. One road had an incline on one side that appeared would be a good place to dispose of something you would want anyone to find. The incline then flattens out a little, then down again to a stream. All this on private property so I didn't dare attempt to go down. Very few homes on this road and very secluded. There were also fields that appeared could be driven on, but not with this snow, and again private property. There is such a vast area around here that needs to be searched by professionals. Feeling very helpless, as I know many people in this area feel at this time.

 

[Clayton]

I meant "wouldn't" want found....not would!!

 

[terracotta]

If I had a friend or loved one missing, and had never read places like WS then I would truly believe that LE had everything under control. Afterall, I am inexperienced and it is their job to figure out what happened. So I can understand any family relying on LE that they know everything and will figure things out.

As we know, that isn't always the case. LE does their best, but there is power in numbers...and really a community helping is priceless. We can look back at the example by Whitney Heichel's church members, friends and family...they got out right away and found almost all the evidence...had they not, there never would have been that quick of an arrest and knowing what happened.

I would like the same for JR....please family and friends....don't stay silent...she needs you!

 

[enzeder]

The entire article is viewable online now.

Search called off

Published: January 18th, 2013

Chenango County Sheriff’s Office Lt. Richard Cobb, who is handling the investigation, said while authorities appreciate the interest shown by local residents in helping to find Ramsaran, they will not endorse any search by civilians.

Stated Cobb, “If there is any reason to search an area we would have already searched there or will be searching there. Our greatest concerns with untrained civilians doing this on their own are their safety and the impact they could have on any evidence, if any were found.”

Read more: http://www.evesun.com/news/stories/2013-01-18/16677/Search-called-off/

 

[OffRoadRunner]

The entire article is viewable online now.

Very interesting... non trained and concern... "Will be searched??" Not alot of speed in wanting to get areas searched quickly ( it sounds like they think they have alot of time to do this ). If I was the Husband, I would have asked for outside assistance by now, or the mom and sister.

No suggestion anywhere on getting trained, "if any citizens desire training to help aid in the searches, contact this person. This is a small Sheriff's office and I know they don't have a huge staff. I'd think any and all help would be appreciated.

If they'd get a trainer in here, I bet the turnout would be a surprise to them.

Unsatisfactory on the Sheriff's office in my mind...

 

[enzeder]

If I had a friend or loved one missing, and had never read places like WS then I would truly believe that LE had everything under control. Afterall, I am inexperienced and it is their job to figure out what happened. So I can understand any family relying on LE that they know everything and will figure things out.

As we know, that isn't always the case. LE does their best, but there is power in numbers...and really a community helping is priceless. We can look back at the example by Whitney Heichel's church members, friends and family...they got out right away and found almost all the evidence...had they not, there never would have been that quick of an arrest and knowing what happened.

I would like the same for JR....please family and friends....don't stay silent...she needs you!

BBM

I agree!. Reading all the comments on the "Help Find Jennifer Ramsaran" FB page yesterday I was just so impressed by the way so many people came forward saying they were available to help with the search. There were also kind offers from people saying they would make sandwich's and coffee for the searchers to others offering to supply ATV's etc.

 

[krey]

I've also wondered if there could be someone else involved.

If I had to vote - planned.

respectfully snipped and BBM

I've wondered this too, especially about one person in particular. But then I tell myself that I've just seen way too many 48 Hours Mystery episodes.

Let me just speak hypothetically here. IF the best friend of a missing person were having an affair with the missing person's husband, then that obviously raises all kinds of red flags about the husband. But what about the supposed "best friend"? Cheating behind your best friend's back with her husband is about the lowest of the low, and if someone lives their life with that set of morals (or lack thereof), then how can they really be trusted in any way, shape, or form?

I'm trying to be careful what I say here, but there's just no other way to say it and I wanted to put it out there, b/c it's a thought I've had. Again, I'm speaking hypothetically.

 

[LolaAngelina]

I'm in awe right now over what's going on, and not in a good way. I'm not sure I can put my thoughts down in a manner that makes sense, but I'm going to try:
I'm flat out, 100% not buying ANY of it, and I'm mad as he11 that her family is sitting idly by while this goes on. This is how cases go cold folks-this is how you end up on some crappy crime documentary show in 20 years trying desperately to find your loved one and knowing darn well that it's too little too late! It's time for her family and friends to take action. If they are scared of him like some people are suggesting they need to realize that the only way to get rid of that fear is to find Jennifer and have the person responsible put away. I understand that this is a victim friendly forum, and I mean no disrespect to her family or friends. I'm speaking from experience and begging anyone who knows her that might be reading here to PLEASE take action and do it now before it's too late! Her children will grow up and they will have questions. You don't want to be the one who has to say "I wish we had done more". I know some are posting flyers, but imo, if they were going to help in this case they would have by now. It's time to be a bit more proactive than that. And I know that they want to believe that they should just let LE do their job. I say this in the most respectful way possible: LE doesn't always know everything. They are human, and they make mistakes, and this most certainly wouldn't be the first missing persons case they fumbled.
And why is LE trying to keep people from searching? I don't believe that they're doing "secret searches" for one minute. The rumor mill is a powerful thing and if they or a requested SAR team were searching, we would have heard about it for sure. So, since (IMO) they're obviously not searching, or at least not searching much, why not let other people search? We've speculated (don't know if it's verified that it's been said by LE) that maybe they don't want people disturbing/ruining evidence. I'd buy that if they themselves displayed a sense of urgency in finding possible evidence. People might disturb evidence but so does time, snow, wind, animals, hunters, etc etc. Better to risk civilian disturbing it now vs. never finding it.
In a way I hope she didn't take off. Goodness, could you imagine if you left your life behind in a "I'll show them" temper tantrum sort of way and then you saw that no one was doing anything to find you except discourage others from finding you? To me, that pain is unimaginable.
I guess that's all I have for now.
:banghead: Rant OVER :banghead:

I couldn't agree more with your post. How many times has a body/evidence been found by a hunter/hiker etc? It happens all the time. So why discourage an organised search where there would be other people to witness someone finding something? Where there would be a list of names of people attending and these people have been fully informed about not touching anything they find? Is it maybe because a certain person involved decided to attend and LE dont want them to be able to access evidence and be able to then explain away fingerprints/DNA?
Btw - can someone link me to missing person jennifer page? I cannot find it when searching, which tells me it may be set that way?

 

[krey]

I couldn't agree more with your post. How many times has a body/evidence been found by a hunter/hiker etc? It happens all the time. So why discourage an organised search where there would be other people to witness someone finding something? Where there would be a list of names of people attending and these people have been fully informed about not touching anything they find? Is it maybe because a certain person involved decided to attend and LE dont want them to be able to access evidence and be able to then explain away fingerprints/DNA?
Btw - can someone link me to missing person jennifer page? I cannot find it when searching, which tells me it may be set that way?

Here's the Jennifer L. Ramsaran - Missing Person link:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jennifer-L-Ramsaran-Missing-Person/116018661901063?fref=ts

Sometimes it comes up in searches for me, and sometimes it doesn't. I think it's just a weird facebook glitch?

 

[The Cheese]

Chenango County Sheriff’s Office Lt. Richard Cobb, who is handling the investigation, said while authorities appreciate the interest shown by local residents in helping to find Ramsaran, they will not endorse any search by civilians.

Stated Cobb, “If there is any reason to search an area we would have already searched there or will be searching there. Our greatest concerns with untrained civilians doing this on their own are their safety and the impact they could have on any evidence, if any were found.”

Authorities, of course, have both the proper training and equipment to conduct searches of this kind, he added, while many civilians do not.

That is the stance of the police on searches. Jennifer's family - her mother, her sister, her husband, and other family members - want to comply with that stance, as any family member who cares about a missing family member would and should.

I'm dumbfounded at the trashing of LE and the family. Just dumbfounded. I've never seen anything like it.