GUILTY NY - Leiby Kletzky, 8, Brooklyn, 11 July 2011 - #2

[shadowraiths]

Parents of dismembered NYC boy set up website

The Leiby Kletzky Memorial Fund website

Ummm... did anyone do a whois for this site that was allegedly set up by the parents? Just sayin...

 

[shadowraiths]

Local Councilman Proposes "Leiby's Law"

To prevent tragedies such as the one that occured to Leiby Kletzky, Brooklyn Councilman
David Greenfield is proposing "official" safe havens for kids.

To qualify, store owners and their employees would undergo a background criminal check.
Residents could also volunteer a background check.

I would love to know how this sort of law is going to help? That is, outside of invading privacy of everyday pro-social citizens. After all, how are small children to differentiate someone who has had a background check from a predator... who, btw, is characterized as a predator for a reason.

 

[shadowraiths]

Ok, finally caught up on this case at the request of a friend who asked me to check it out. Following are a few comments... mostly in response to posts made in the two threads.

Wrt competency v ngri.

There are several types of competency hearings. Competency to stand trial (i.e., understand the charges and assist in one's defense), competency to be sentenced, competency to be executed, etc. Competency is basically designed to insure the defendant is cognizant, so to speak, with regard to the various stages of the legal process. If the defendant is found incompetent, they are remanded to a criminal psychiatric facility to be restored to competency.

NGRI (aka insanity plea aka M'Naughten rule) is specifically related to the mens rea part of charges brought. Mens rea and actus reus (guilty mind and guilty act, respectively) are the two prongs that are required for a conviction. Moreover, NGRI defense is extremely rare (≤ 0.1%) and winning an NGRI, even more so (≤ 0.01%). This is especially so after the Hinckley case. Importantly, someone can be acutely mentally ill and still not meet the criteria for legal insanity. Take for example, John Couey, who kidnapped and murdered Jessica Lunsford. Couey allegedly had an IQ that would qualify him as mentally retarded, yet he still did not meet the criteria for legal insanity.

Wrt NGRI = ticket to freedom. This is more a wives tale than anything. Most who are found NGRI are severely mentally ill and are not only remanded to a criminal psychiatric institute for an unspecified length of time, but research indicates NGRI defendants are generally institutionalized for much longer than had they gone the standard route. In fact, the ACLU has been fighting the institutionalization of these defendants as unconstitutional, as psychiatric institutes, not judges, decide when to (or not to) release these people.

Wrt claims that this tragic murder was a result of a man with latent homosexual tendencies? Again, a scare-mongering wives tale perpetuated from the days when homosexuality was considered sick, evil, whatever. It's unfortunate some still believe such rubbish. But oh well...

Wrt the contention that this man will be surely abused in jail due to his religion while at the same time wondering why some Jewish communities do not immediately rely upon LE intervention? Does the term anti-semitism ring a bell? It is truly but sadly alive and well in the good ole U.S. of A.

That said, while I can see the defense going for an NGRI, I am skeptical they'll win such a case. Esp in light of the psychiatric reports coming out thus far ( link ). Unless they can show a history of acute mental illness, to include a predisposition to violence without cognizance... for example that he had a psychotic break, it seems quite unlikely they'll be able to make a case for legal insanity. Even if he does have a history... and arguably, he does (i.e., the seroquel, genetic predisposition, etc), schizophrenia is not correlated to violence. Moreover, the alleged schizophrenic symptoms his lawyers are reporting seem rather... well... fake. And finally, that he was able to lure this child, keep him alive for well over 24 hours, attend a wedding and even attend work, all speaks against a viable case for legal insanity.

Anyway, that's my opinion at this time. While I would generally assume cases such as this would involve multiple victims, in this case, I'm simply not so sure. Nor am I convinced motivation involved a sexual element. At least not at this point.

 

[Swirlz]

I would love to know how this sort of law is going to help? That is, outside of invading privacy of everyday pro-social citizens. After all, how are small children to differentiate someone who has had a background check from a predator... who, btw, is characterized as a predator for a reason.

Levi Aron could've passed a background check.

 

[peace9274]

The circumstances surrounding Aron's sister's death are suspicious because psychiatric inpatients are handed their medication by a RN and the meds are kept in a secure location under lock and key so I can't understand how Aron's sister managed to voluntarily kill herself from a drug overdose when she was institutionalized.

Levi's ex-wife didn't say Aron's sister was an inpatient at a mental health facility when she died from a drug overdose so I didn't question the circumstances under which she died until
I heard she was institutionized. At home a patient has easy access to all their medications so an accidental or voluntary suicide isn't suspicious but because she died in an institution, her death sounds very suspicious and perhaps the COD is a cover-up.

There is social stigma around rape and family and domestic violence too.

Some psych patients have been found to "tongue" or "cheek" their meds.
Unfortunately, even when asked to open their mouths & show that their pill was
swallowed, they still can fool the med nurse, ending up saving/hoarding their meds.

If the patient is caught cheeking his meds, most often the pills are then crushed & dissolved in juice or given in liquid form.

Although all patients are observed carefully at med time, there may be one who gets by us.
Or a visitor may have smuggled meds/drugs in, which is also very infrequent. But it has happened.

 

[Crosby87]

Ummm... did anyone do a whois for this site that was allegedly set up by the parents? Just sayin...

This coming Saturday, August 20th, Leiby’s parents Nachman and Esty Kletzky will be lighting a candle for their son Leiby’s 9th birthday.

On a media report dated July 14th it said Leiby’s birthday was “next week” but this is incorrect. I was trying to find out how Leiby’s family acknowledged their son’s birthday and couldn’t find anything so I thought perhaps because they were sitting in Shiva, they had postponed the event.

http://www.rememberingleiby.com/

 

[shadowraiths]

This coming Saturday, August 20th, Leiby’s parents Nachman and Esty Kletzky will be lighting a candle for their son Leiby’s 9th birthday.

On a media report dated July 14th it said Leiby’s birthday was “next week” but this is incorrect. I was trying to find out how Leiby’s family acknowledged their son’s birthday and couldn’t find anything so I thought perhaps because they were sitting in Shiva, they had postponed the event.

http://www.rememberingleiby.com/

Am not sure how a post regarding a candlelight vigil answers my original question regarding the validity of a donation site that was allegedly set up by the Kletzkys? No matter. My heart certainly goes out to the family. Even so, I simply question a site that advertises a "high visitor-to-donor conversion" and notes that it is "easy to hook into your social media." If Leiby's parents did indeed set up a fund raiser on that site for their son, fine. I completely support that. However, there are so many creepy people in this world that are more than happy to cash in on people's desire to make a difference in the face of tragedies such as this that I am admittedly skeptical. Again, just sayin...

ETA: nm, I see that a link to the fund raising site is on the memorial site.

 

[Crosby87]

Some psych patients have been found to "tongue" or "cheek" their meds.
Unfortunately, even when asked to open their mouths & show that their pill was
swallowed, they still can fool the med nurse, ending up saving/hoarding their meds.

If the patient is caught cheeking his meds, most often the pills are then crushed & dissolved in juice or given in liquid form.

Although all patients are observed carefully at med time, there may be one who gets by us.
Or a visitor may have smuggled meds/drugs in, which is also very infrequent. But it has happened.

Thank you.

We aren’t certain the psychiatrist’s account of Levi’s sister death is accurate; however if it is and Levi’s sister died from a drug overdose in an institution, I think an official inquiry into her death is justified.

If the patient was collecting meds to commit suicide, they would have had to collect their meds over a period of time in order to make the dosage fatal I think.

As you pointed out, if a nurse suspects a patient isn't swallowing their meds, they don't get a second chance.

IMO the institutional staff need to be held accountable for her death and explain how the patient pulled this off without their knowledge.

Nurses aren’t easy to fool and the patients clothing and rooms are checked everyday. Plus they have security personnel and onsite video cameras which operate 24/7.

 

[Cubby]

Found an article about a woman who was found not guilty by reason of insanity in the attempted murder of her grandson. Of interest, the article indicates she had a "brief, stipulated bench trial". Her fiance intervened before the child was seriously injured, thank God! She was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and there are some details regarding the voices she was hearing the night of this incident with her 10 month old grandson.


http://elmhurst.patch.com/articles/...ot-guilty-of-attempted-murder-of-her-grandson

Don't think Levy will be having a bench trial, if so it would sure be a shocker to me. But one never knows.

The details of the voices this woman was hearing seem to be very different than those LA was allegedly hearing around the time he murdered Leiby.

jmo

 

[Cubby]

Storeowners post 'Safe Stop' signs on windows to help lost kids


Before Leiby Kletzky was abducted and brutally murdered, he wandered the streets of Borough Park alone, lost and confused, on his first walk home from day camp.

The panicked 8-year-old had nowhere to turn for help - but now local storeowners want to take steps to keep Leiby's tragic ordeal from ever happening again.

Merchants across Brooklyn announced yesterday they will be posting Stop-sign-shaped stickers in their front windows to let children - or anyone else in trouble - know their shops are designated safe havens.

<snip>

So far, 76 stores in Brooklyn have signed on and put Safe Stop stickers in their front windows

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local...ids_storeowners_to_post_signs_on_windows.html

 

[nosysw]

Storeowners post 'Safe Stop' signs on windows to help lost kids


Before Leiby Kletzky was abducted and brutally murdered, he wandered the streets of Borough Park alone, lost and confused, on his first walk home from day camp.

The panicked 8-year-old had nowhere to turn for help - but now local storeowners want to take steps to keep Leiby's tragic ordeal from ever happening again.

Merchants across Brooklyn announced yesterday they will be posting Stop-sign-shaped stickers in their front windows to let children - or anyone else in trouble - know their shops are designated safe havens.

<snip>

So far, 76 stores in Brooklyn have signed on and put Safe Stop stickers in their front windows

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local...ids_storeowners_to_post_signs_on_windows.html

Great idea...they used to do that in my town...people who were generally home during the day (we have no businesses- well, only 3 or 4) would put a poster of a red hand in their window to signify that a child could come there if having a problem (we have no school buses, so all the children walk to school)...I don't know why they stopped- perhaps because the need to background check came up or perhaps there just aren't enough people home during the day anymore...

 

[Cubby]

Great idea...they used to do that in my town...people who were generally home during the day (we have no businesses- well, only 3 or 4) would put a poster of a red hand in their window to signify that a child could come there if having a problem (we have no school buses, so all the children walk to school)...I don't know why they stopped- perhaps because the need to background check came up or perhaps there just aren't enough people home during the day anymore...

I remember something similiar when I was growing up too. It was a blue star on a yellow background. I too don't know why the program stopped. Perhaps a liability with background checks and things that might not come up on a background check.

I do like the idea of businesses doing this more so than residential homes, but again, not everywhere has business districts within walking distance.

 

[epiphany]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/n...fense-lawyers.html?smid=tw-nytmetro&seid=auto

During the hearing, which the justice called because of leaks to the press and what he called inappropriate actions by the defense lawyers, he reprimanded them for complaining about the release of public documents, for their use of Facebook and for not providing the Department of Correction an approved list of visitors for their client.

 

[Crosby87]

Found an article about a woman who was found not guilty by reason of insanity in the attempted murder of her grandson. Of interest, the article indicates she had a "brief, stipulated bench trial". Her fiance intervened before the child was seriously injured, thank God! She was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and there are some details regarding the voices she was hearing the night of this incident with her 10 month old grandson.


http://elmhurst.patch.com/articles/...ot-guilty-of-attempted-murder-of-her-grandson

Don't think Levy will be having a bench trial, if so it would sure be a shocker to me. But one never knows.

The details of the voices this woman was hearing seem to be very different than those LA was allegedly hearing around the time he murdered Leiby.

jmo

Thank you Cubby. I wondered why some criminal cases are heard by a Judge rather than a jury.

<snipped>

A bench trial is a trial held before a judge sitting without a jury. In the U.S., a criminal bench trial will only occur if the right to a jury trial is waived. In the case of a criminal trial, in most states the criminal defendant alone has the ability to waive the right to a jury. In United States Federal criminal trials, jury trials are usually a matter of course and cannot be waived without certain requirements. Under the rules of Federal Criminal Procedure: If a defendant is entitled to a jury trial, the trial must be by jury unless: (1) the defendant waives a jury trial in writing; (2) the government consents; and
(3) the court approves. See Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure 23(a).

With bench trials, the judge plays the role of the jury as finder of fact, in addition to making conclusions of law. In some bench trials, both sides have already stipulated to all the facts in the case (such as civil disobedience cases designed to test the constitutionality of a law). These are usually faster than jury trials due to the fewer number of formalities required. For example, there is no jury selection phase, no need for sequestration and no need for jury instructions.

A bench trial has some distinctive characteristics, but it is basically the same as a jury trial without the jury. For example, the rules of evidence and methods of objection are the same in a bench trial as in a jury trial. Bench trials, however, are frequently more informal than jury trials. It is often less necessary to protect the record with objections, and sometimes evidence is accepted de bene, or provisionally, subject to the possibility of being struck in the future.

Bench trial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BeanE]

 

[BeanE]

(From the judge "You claim your client is incompetent and you're relying on him to make decisions?" he said.

snip

The judge chided the suspect's lawyers for griping about media coverage after giving several interviews themselves and posting comments about the case on McCann's Facebook page.

He even hinted that the defense may have been behind the illegal leak of the psych evaluation.

snip

"The press is not going to disclose their source," Firetog replied. "One would think you'd know that. One would be surprised if you didn't know that."

snip

"This is such a disingenuous argument, I don't want to hear anymore," the judge said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...experience_complaints_abou.html#ixzz1VxYovIMS

 

[BeanE]

Attorney Jennifer McCann's Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Law-Office-of-Jennifer-L-McCann-PC/119833514757527


Unbelievable this lady is posting on FB about this case. I wonder if she went to the Jose Baez School of Law.

 

[AnaTeresa]

:doh: I'm a law student, and even I know better than to post anything about the clients I work with. Heck, they give you a big come to Jesus talk about posting other things on Facebook when you begin law school.

I thought it was common knowledge at this point to be careful what you say online. She really should know better than this. Ugh.

 

[MsFacetious]

Attorney Jennifer McCann's Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Law-Office-of-Jennifer-L-McCann-PC/119833514757527


Unbelievable this lady is posting on FB about this case. I wonder if she went to the Jose Baez School of Law.

I am certainly having major deja vu here...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/nyregion/judge-criticizes-levi-arons-defense-lawyers.html

The judge chastised the two for briefly discussing the case on their Facebook pages, and for defending their client in this public forum.

(He even scolded Mr. Bazile for misspelling “canon,” as it relates to ethics.
“Two N’s means a cannon that shoots at something,” he said.)

Ms. McCann explained that she used Facebook to respond to a group that was harassing her:
“It was the quickest, easiest way to resolve my issues so the phone lines aren’t clogged up. I have a business to run, Your Honor.”

 

[AnaTeresa]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/nyregion/judge-criticizes-levi-arons-defense-lawyers.html

Ms. McCann explained that she used Facebook to respond to a group that was harassing her: “It was the quickest, easiest way to resolve my issues so the phone lines aren’t clogged up. I have a business to run, Your Honor.”

Bull.

One, her Facebook should be privatized so that random people cannot harass her - that's common sense for a professional, particularly one in her field. Two, if these were low-level threats, block them. No need to respond on Facebook. Three, if these were more serious threats, you still block them, and send a cease and desist letter. There's no need to be posting about your case at all.